1904 St. Louis World's Fair So-Called Half Dollar die trial

Zoins

Does anyone know anything about this piece? I picked it up because I thought it was interesting but know nothing about it so far.

It's the size of a half-dollar and looks like it could be a So-Called Half Dollar for the 1904 St. Louis World's Fair / Louisiana Purchase Exposition.

MedalCollector

I saw that one too. Good pick up!

I don't believe it's a SCD. It is listed by Hendershott, though: H-30-240(?)

Zoins

It's not a SCD, but it could be a SCHD (so-called half dollar). ATS has been slabbing and cataloging half dollar sized pieces as "SC50C".

Good to know it's listed by Hendershott! Will have to check it out!

MedalCollector

Is there a reference for SCHDs? I've always assumed it was a term casually used in order to draw attention from collectors of SCDs.

The obverse die shown on your trial may have been used with multiple reverses, but I'm not sure. I simply found an example of your medal with the Hendershott attribution. Good luck!

savoyspecial

The term 'So Called Half Dollar' goes back a ways.....There was a Wayte Raymond album page that held So Called Half Dollars

illini420

I haven't seen that design before. Interesting piece!

MedalCollector

@savoyspecial said:
The term 'So Called Half Dollar' goes back a ways.....There was a Wayte Raymond album page that held So Called Half Dollars

That page was labeled with the same 6 or 8 medals, if I remember correctly. They are the only medals that I recall every seeing labeled as so-called dollars. The Heraldic Art medals seem to be associated with the label as well. However, I have never seen any published criteria for the so-called half dollar series (not that there needs to be!).

Zoins

It seems like ATS is leading the way for cataloging both so-called half dollars and HK unlisted dollars now. In addition to "SC50C", they slab and label so-called dollars as "SC$" that are not listed in HK. This is useful since there doesn't seem to be an active cataloging project at the moment.

Of course, the flip side of this, is that with no published reference, this may be an area that ATS has to themselves with respect to PCGS.

Icollecteverything

Neat piece. Can you make out anything on the blank side?

Zoins

@Icollecteverything said:
Neat piece. Can you make out anything on the blank side?

Nope. Looks devoid of any identifying info. Might send it ATS but would be nice to be able to send it to our hosts.

ricko

Nice piece...historical relevance...Looks like there was some remnant of some type of previously struck medal on the reverse, but I could not determine any particular information. Cheers, RickO

Zoins

Of note ATS references Hendershott.

Here's some information on Bob Hendershott's reference by Mike Truax. The 3 web link it has are all broken and I'm sure how long this one will last so here's the info:

The 1904 St. Louis World's Fair Memorabilia: Catalog

Robert (Bob) Hendershott's 1994 catalog of 1904 World's Fair memorabilia The 1904 St. Louis World's Fair - The Louisiana Purchase Exposition: Mementos and Memorabilia was a landmark publication.

The book's 365 pages include 67 categories of memorabilia, broken down into 217 additional sub-categories. There are over 2,600 items listed, EACH with one or more corresponding photos!

The book contains a Forward and Publisher's Note by Kurt Krueger, a collector and earlier publisher of a book of 1904 World's Fair Exonumia. There's also an Overview by Eric Newman, a noted numismatist and historian, and a biography of Robert Hendershott. Additional information about this book can be found at Jim Crawford's World's Fair page.

To compile this work, Bob photographed his own collection and also items from the collections of others, including Dr. Joseph Vacca and Joe Meisel. The items are priced (based on Extremely Fine condition) into one of several price categories or brackets: $5-25, $25-50, $50-100, $100-200, etc.

Fourteen years have passed since publication, the Fair's Centennial has passed, and Internet auctions of Fair collectible and memorabilia items have arrived. Most of the cataloged items are still accurately priced. However, many items have changed in value, sometimes one price 'bracket' up, or (more likely) one price 'bracket' down in value.

Major displays of 1904 World's Fair memorabilia can be viewed at the Missouri Historical Society's exhibit "Looking Back at Looking Forward", and at the Chatillion-Demenil Mansion, where items from the Meisel collection may be seen.

Zoins

Finally found an online photo of this here. This was initially sold for €40.00 by NumisCorner:

https://www.vcoins.com/en/stores/numiscorner/239/product/united_states_medal_exposition_saint_louis_arts__culture_1904/964272/amp.aspx

This specimen was later sold on eBay for $165.00 on Apr 22, 2018, 12:39PM.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/1904-MEDAL-TOKEN-ST-LOUIS-WORLDS-FAIR-LOUISIANA-PURCHASE-EXPOSITION-H-30-240-LPE-/202280628506

Zoins

Here's some more information on Bob Hendershott who wrote the reference for the expo:

• Tribute: http://www.coinbooks.org/esylum_v08n14a19.html
• Biography: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_L._Hendershott

Amazon carries his 1994 reference "1904 St. Louis World's Fair: The Louisiana Purchase Exposition: Mementos and Memorabilia" which is available here:

https://www.amazon.com/1904-St-Louis-Worlds-Fair/dp/B004J1KTJI

Zoins

Here's a looped, gilt specimen from Stephen Album Rare Coins Auction 31, Session II, Lot 1963 on 17-19 May 2018 for $100.00. Here is the description:

UNITED STATES:1904, gilt bronze medal, H-30-240, NGC graded MS62, Louisiana Purchase Exposition, busts of NAPOLEON and JEFFERSON within Fleur-de-lis shaped wreath, WORLD'S FAIR below // THE / LOUISIANA / PURCHASE / EXPOSITION / ST. LOUIS / 1904 at center, board of Napoleonic seals around.

https://www.numisbids.com/n.php?p=lot&sid=2528&lot=1963
https://www.sixbid.com/browse.html?auction=4785&category=141396&lot=3945109

The initials "N. M. K." are on the reverse at 7 o'clock. Anyone know who that might refer to? NMK is not listed on Dick Johnson's MedalArtists.com site:

http://www.medalartists.com/identifying-initials.html

Zoins

Here is a low ball one that sold for $9.99 this past June 26, 2018, 3:26PM.

It's great to find a few of these this year after being able to find none last year.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/USA-1904-LOUISIANA-PURCHASE-EXPOSITION-ST-LOUIS-POSTCARD-MISSOURI-BUILDING-/232102578436?oid=352381359924

coinsarefun

That is so very cool @Zoins I would have grabbed it too!

SaorAlba

No nothing about that piece, but I do like any exonumia associated with the 1904 Worlds Fair though.

CaptHenway

@Zoins said:
Does anyone know anything about this piece? I picked it up because I thought it was interesting but know nothing about it so far.

It's the size of a half-dollar and looks like it could be a So-Called Half Dollar for the 1904 St. Louis World's Fair / Louisiana Purchase Exposition.

I believe that the vague markings on the back are just old markings in the backing plate that were embossed onto this piece was on when it was struck.

There is a vague possibility that this was a restrike made by somebody like Robert Bashlow, but I have no evidence that this was so.

Timbuk3

That's a very nice piece, congratulations !!!

Zoins

@CaptHenway said:

@Zoins said:
Does anyone know anything about this piece? I picked it up because I thought it was interesting but know nothing about it so far.

It's the size of a half-dollar and looks like it could be a So-Called Half Dollar for the 1904 St. Louis World's Fair / Louisiana Purchase Exposition.

I believe that the vague markings on the back are just old markings in the backing plate that were embossed onto this piece was on when it was struck.

There is a vague possibility that this was a restrike made by somebody like Robert Bashlow, but I have no evidence that this was so.

Old Thread Update

I was looking for these medals again but still haven't found any but wanted to ask Tom / @CaptHenway a question.

Are there any specimens of Bashlow and August Frank doing restrikes on similar scrap metal? I haven't seen any, but if the existence or non-existence of such a piece would be useful in speculation.

CaptHenway

Well, there are the Confederate cent impressions on rectangles. The Canadian tokens on large round disks are slightly cup-shaped, like these are.
Nothing definite.

Zoins

@CaptHenway said:
Well, there are the Confederate cent impressions on rectangles.

I haven't seen any Confederate cent impressions on rectangles like this but I would love to see some. Do you have photos you can share?

Or do you mean the paperweights which are rectangular but blocks of copper and not something that could be from a planchet strip? Here's a thread on the paperweights:

https://forums.collectors.com/discussion/comment/12413398

The Canadian tokens on large round disks are slightly cup-shaped, like these are.

The round disks sound a bit like the Confederate Cent hub trials but are not really like this.

CaptHenway

Yes, those rectangles.

Zoins

@Zoins said:
Here's a looped, gilt specimen from Stephen Album Rare Coins Auction 31, Session II, Lot 1963 on 17-19 May 2018 for $100.00. Here is the description:

UNITED STATES:1904, gilt bronze medal, H-30-240, NGC graded MS62, Louisiana Purchase Exposition, busts of NAPOLEON and JEFFERSON within Fleur-de-lis shaped wreath, WORLD'S FAIR below // THE / LOUISIANA / PURCHASE / EXPOSITION / ST. LOUIS / 1904 at center, board of Napoleonic seals around.

https://www.numisbids.com/n.php?p=lot&sid=2528&lot=1963
https://www.sixbid.com/browse.html?auction=4785&category=141396&lot=3945109

The initials "N. M. K." are on the reverse at 7 o'clock. Anyone know who that might refer to? NMK is not listed on Dick Johnson's MedalArtists.com site:

http://www.medalartists.com/identifying-initials.html

I just found out this was sold on eBay in 2013 and 2018. Unfortunately, I didn't see it at the time.

It's nice that the WorthPoint eBay cache has the slab images which show it's cataloged as "MO H-30-240 GILT".

September 6, 2013 Sale - eBay

• https://www.worthpoint.com/worthopedia/1904-louisiana-purchase-expo-napoleon-466928230

November 4, 2018 Sale - eBay

• https://www.worthpoint.com/worthopedia/1904-30-240-medal-ngc-ms62-token-1953822605

Zoins

Here's one I found in a Google cache but no longer exists on the referenced site.

This is specimen #4 so far, aside from my die trial. It would be nice to see the other side of the tag.

keets

It seems like ATS is leading the way for cataloging both so-called half dollars and HK unlisted dollars now.....................with no published reference, this may be an area that ATS has to themselves with respect to PCGS.

I believe we each make choices about what we collect and assign parameters for ourselves, this is a good thing. looking at the two major TPG's shows similar thinking with starkly different outcomes.
NGC --- although NGC has an instructive page with links to what they'll encapsulate, they have always seemed willing to put almost anything in a holder. this isn't necessarily a bad thing but I have to wonder if it is a good thing. these smaller medals referred to as SC half-dollars present a problem all their own and certainly need their own category, but I wonder if attaching the term "So-Called" to any classification is wise. back to SC$'s, NGC seems willing to place any holed or looped medal in a holder, apparently basing this decision on the erroneous fact that they were issued that way, and that none come absent the hole or loop.

PCGS --- PCGS also has a helpful page with references that guide us about what they will encapsulate. the problem is that they seem overly strict and lax at the same time: they are unwilling to slab items in references they list and place other items in holders that aren't in any reference listed. it leads to confusion, at least to me. also, PCGS has seemed unwilling to encapsulate holed or looped medals I have submitted even though they are as made. this is odd since there actually are some listed SC$'s that I have never seen without a hole or loop.

in a nutshell, my conclusion is that NGC will encapsulate anything and PCGS sometimes won't encapsulate things they say they will. I guess it's nice to have choices!! in the perfect world there would be less competition and more cooperation between these two leaders in our Hobby, we just aren't there yet. I haven't given up hope.

Zoins

@keets said:
these smaller medals referred to as SC half-dollars present a problem all their own and certainly need their own category, but I wonder if attaching the term "So-Called" to any classification is wise.

I think it's okay if they fit the definition of So-Called Dollars at a smaller size. This particular one was issued for the World's Fair and I think it's good to associate fair / expo pieces with each other.

NGC seems willing to place any holed or looped medal in a holder, apparently basing this decision on the erroneous fact that they were issued that way, and that none come absent the hole or loop.

Perhaps, but in this particular case, 2 of the 4 specimens above are unlooped.

keets

unlooped or had the loop removed?? that can only be known with an in-hand assessment. my comment was made based on what I have seen and what I have seen published.

Zoins

@keets said:
unlooped or had the loop removed?? that can only be known with an in-hand assessment. my comment was made based on what I have seen and what I have seen published.

I agree they should be seen in hand. I guess I like to be optimistic

LOCK34

I have a very nice example of the 1904 Louisiana Purchase Exposition official souvenir from St. Louis. Hard to photo in cellophane😁

Zoins

Great to see another one of these! A NGC MS63 this time.

Photos courtesy of thehook!