Interesting 1853 3-cent silver

dcarr · January 11, 2017 9:48PM

Just bought this one at my local coin club meeting.
I thought it was neat. It actually looks better than most circulated 3-cent silver pieces.
XRF tests as silver plate over "German Silver" (63% copper, 21% zinc, 15% nickel).

CascadeChris · January 11, 2017 9:54PM

Well that's neat. When was German silver invented? Early 20th, no?

@BStrauss3 would probably like to see it

AUandAG · January 11, 2017 9:56PM

I agree, always fun to view contemporary counterfeits.

bob:)

Zoins · January 11, 2017 11:11PM

Excellent! Did you know or suspect it was a counterfeit when you purchased it?

dcarr · January 12, 2017 4:21AM

@Zoins said:
Excellent! Did you know or suspect it was a counterfeit when you purchased it?

I knew immediately that it was struck from privately-made hand-cut dies.
The seller did not. But I told him that before I bought it.

ricko · January 12, 2017 4:55AM

Nice catch.... do you maintain a 'library' of counterfeits? Cheers, RickO

1630Boston · January 12, 2017 5:27AM

Thank you for sharing this piece with us.

ms70 · January 12, 2017 5:51AM

The date style is interesting.

oih82w8 · January 12, 2017 6:10AM

@ms70 said:
The date style is interesting.

That is what caught my eye first.

Koinicker · January 12, 2017 6:11AM

@CascadeChris said:
Well that's neat. When was German silver invented? Early 20th, no?

German silver first arrives on the American shores in about 1829 in the form of household items (candlesticks, utensils, etc). Dr Feuchtwanger begins to use German silver on his 'coins' starting in 1837. The use of this alloy to make coins/tokens seems to be THE trigger for counterfeiters to adopt this alloy. What is seen is that by approximately 1838 counterfeiters have transitioned from billon (debased silver alloys) to German silver (copper-nickel-zinc) alloys for counterfeiting silver coins.

Excellent find. Only about 20% of the surviving counterfeit 3cS pieces date before 1860; this is the most common variety of pre-1860 dated counterfeit 3cS pieces.

7Jaguars · January 12, 2017 6:38AM

Interesting find, amazing that much effort put into a 3c piece!

Not to derail, but I have a difficult time finding XRF in the DC(as in Washington, DC!) area. Any suggestions as to where to get access?

StrikeOutXXX · January 12, 2017 6:47AM

@7Jaguars said:
Interesting find, amazing that much effort put into a 3c piece!

Not to derail, but I have a difficult time finding XRF in the DC(as in Washington, DC!) area. Any suggestions as to where to get access?

Nice counterfeit - I recently found a 96% Tin well-made 1943 Half.

7jaguars - funny you mentioned the XRF. One of my good coin friends carries his to every auction/show we go to. Every few shows I ask him to bring it in from his truck to the monthly bourse I setup at to check a few things. Every show, some dealer asks me if my friend will be there with "his gun" to test stuff. When he does bring it in, he is mobbed lol.

I told him to buy a table ($20 for our show) and even if he charges 50-Cents per scan to verbally tell you what it is, or $1.00 for the scan with the print-out of metal breakdown, he would probably make a few hundred dollars on the day LOL. Told him he has to pay for his $10k+ toy somehow. I'm waiting to actually see this happen at a major show.

Jackthecat1 · January 12, 2017 7:14AM

A fascinating counterfeit.

OldEastside · January 12, 2017 7:37AM

That's pretty cool

Steve

oih82w8 · January 12, 2017 8:09AM

Hmmm...when I googled XFR, jaguars and personal watercraft show up.

Is XFR an acronym? Metal sorter? Laser Induced Breakdown Spectroscopy?

https://www.oxford-instruments.com/products/analysers/handheld-analysers/xrf-analyzer-x-met8000

pocketpiececommems · January 12, 2017 9:00AM

7jaguars beat me to the punch about how much effort was put into a tiny 3cent silver. Wonder how many they made

7Jaguars · January 12, 2017 9:16AM

Yea, there used to be a guy with a table at the Baltimore show and then he stopped coming after a few times. I def. have some coins needing testing, but they are patterns as opposed to counterfeits.

LoveMyLiberty · January 12, 2017 1:10PM

Regarding the op coin, there is a picture of an example
of this coin on page 99 in the book "The Authoritative
Reference on Three Cent Silver Coins" by Kevin Flynn and
Winston Zack ( who used the pseudonym "STONE" while a
member of these boards, but left us to become a famous
writer & archaeologist ) The piece is listed as weight= 0.73 grams
with a composition of Silvered Brass.
The pictured piece sold for $102.50 on eBay.
There are several images of other dated pieces that resemble
the op item, but with different dates & composition.

CascadeChris · January 12, 2017 1:16PM

@Koinicker said:

@CascadeChris said:
Well that's neat. When was German silver invented? Early 20th, no?

German silver first arrives on the American shores in about 1829 in the form of household items (candlesticks, utensils, etc). Dr Feuchtwanger begins to use German silver on his 'coins' starting in 1837. The use of this alloy to make coins/tokens seems to be THE trigger for counterfeiters to adopt this alloy. What is seen is that by approximately 1838 counterfeiters have transitioned from billon (debased silver alloys) to German silver (copper-nickel-zinc) alloys for counterfeiting silver coins.

Excellent find. Only about 20% of the surviving counterfeit 3cS pieces date before 1860; this is the most common variety of pre-1860 dated counterfeit 3cS pieces.

Good info. Thanks.

dcarr · January 12, 2017 1:25PM

@ricko said:
Nice catch.... do you maintain a 'library' of counterfeits? Cheers, RickO

I have a collection of vintage privately-made Morgan dollar "micro-o" (and family) counterfeits.
I'm listed as the discoverer of three such VAM listings: 1893-O VAM-7; 1893-O VAM-8; 1902-O VAM-92.
I also have a couple other struck counterfeits from vintage hand-cut dies:
1877 Seated Liberty half dollar; 1901-O Morgan Dollar.

And a couple "Henning" nickels: 1939 and 1944 no-P.
Also a little pile of vintage cast lead counterfeits including a 1909 Indian Head Cent and a couple relatively high grade Barbers, although I don't really collect the cast ones.

dcarr · January 12, 2017 1:29PM

@LoveMyLiberty said:
Regarding the op coin, there is a picture of an example
of this coin on page 99 in the book "The Authoritative
Reference on Three Cent Silver Coins" by Kevin Flynn and
Winston Zack ( who used the pseudonym "STONE" while a
member of these boards, but left us to become a famous
writer & archaeologist ) The piece is listed as weight= 0.73 grams
with a composition of Silvered Brass.
The pictured piece sold for $102.50 on eBay.
There are several images of other dated pieces that resemble
the op item, but with different dates & composition.

Thanks for the info !
How does the condition of the OP coin compare to the one in the book ?
I immediately was drawn to the silver "circ-cam" look of the OP coin. The weight of it matches the 0.73 gram reference.

dcarr · January 12, 2017 1:30PM

@7Jaguars said:
Yea, there used to be a guy with a table at the Baltimore show and then he stopped coming after a few times. I def. have some coins needing testing, but they are patterns as opposed to counterfeits.

Dave Emsile of "Prospectors Gold and Gems" goes to a number of larger shows and usually has his XRF gun.

ricko · January 12, 2017 1:44PM

@dcarr....Thanks for the response Dan..... I have one counterfeit Morgan... that is the extent of my fake library... Cheers, RickO

ranshdow · January 12, 2017 1:46PM

Very cool trime, Dan

LoveMyLiberty · January 12, 2017 1:57PM

The condition is near identical with the same shallow
fields, filled A's , etc. Your coin has more wear, especially
on the rims. The pictured coin in the book has a few slight
variances on the rev. stars. It is in better condition with
less wear. The image is courtesy of Civitas Coin Galleries.
I'm only guessing but I'd say yours may be a different coin.
There is also an interesting story write-up from the
N.Y. Times about the, or some counterfeiters that made
these around 1885 when they were arrested & describes
how they made them.

Flatwoods · January 12, 2017 3:49PM

That's a cool piece. Pretty well made as far as counterfeits go.

TomB · January 12, 2017 4:03PM

That's a great contemporary counterfeit!

Koinicker · January 12, 2017 4:33PM

In terms of 'counterfeit grading' I would call the OPs example a high-end VF (average/slightly above average quality out of the 15-20 different examples I've seen). The nicest example of this variety I have seen is this 'AU' example.

BStrauss3 · January 12, 2017 7:51PM

Both are really nice, especially the OPs which looks like it did some circulation time.

Would they have fooled somebody in 1853 - maybe... by 1863 - probably.

mannie gray · January 13, 2017 12:06AM

@ricko said:
@dcarr....Thanks for the response Dan..... I have one counterfeit Morgan... that is the extent of my fake library... Cheers, RickO

Or so you hope.........lol

AmazonX · January 13, 2017 12:50AM

Very, very cool.

AmazonX · January 13, 2017 1:01AM

@Koinicker This thread got me wondering, are there any 3CS that are cast? I would assume not because the cast would be too thin and delicate?

topstuf · January 13, 2017 6:27AM

Questioning the intent of someone thinking to get rich faking ..,.3c....pieces makes me wonder how "contemporary" fits.
But would an intended numismatic hoaxer use German silver?

CaptHenway · January 13, 2017 6:57AM

@AmazonX said:
@Koinicker This thread got me wondering, are there any 3CS that are cast? I would assume not because the cast would be too thin and delicate?

Not that I am aware of.

CaptHenway · January 13, 2017 6:59AM

@topstuf said:
Questioning the intent of someone thinking to get rich faking ..,.3c....pieces makes me wonder how "contemporary" fits.
But would an intended numismatic hoaxer use German silver?

Definitely contemporary to the 19th Century. Possibly made during the Civil War when change was scarce and fakes would have been easier to pass.

dcarr · January 13, 2017 11:38AM

@Koinicker said:
In terms of 'counterfeit grading' I would call the OPs example a high-end VF (average/slightly above average quality out of the 15-20 different examples I've seen). The nicest example of this variety I have seen is this 'AU' example.

Thanks for posting those pictures.
I note that the OP coin was struck from a different obverse die than this one.
The obverse has differences in the horizontal and vertical shield lines, among other things.

Koinicker · January 13, 2017 3:46PM

@dcarr said:

@Koinicker said:
In terms of 'counterfeit grading' I would call the OPs example a high-end VF (average/slightly above average quality out of the 15-20 different examples I've seen). The nicest example of this variety I have seen is this 'AU' example.

Thanks for posting those pictures.
I note that the OP coin was struck from a different obverse die than this one.
The obverse has differences in the horizontal and vertical shield lines, among other things.

These two could be different obverses. Great observation!

As for cast counterfeit 3cS, no I don't know of any. There are a couple of transfer die counterfeit 3cS pieces though.

topstuf · January 13, 2017 4:54PM

@CaptHenway said:

@topstuf said:
Questioning the intent of someone thinking to get rich faking ..,.3c....pieces makes me wonder how "contemporary" fits.
But would an intended numismatic hoaxer use German silver?

Definitely contemporary to the 19th Century. Possibly made during the Civil War when change was scarce and fakes would have been easier to pass.

I keep forgetting that at one time, three cents BOUGHT something.

NumisOxide · January 13, 2017 4:57PM

Great contemporary counterfeit.

CaptHenway · January 13, 2017 6:10PM

@topstuf said:

@CaptHenway said:

@topstuf said:
Questioning the intent of someone thinking to get rich faking ..,.3c....pieces makes me wonder how "contemporary" fits.
But would an intended numismatic hoaxer use German silver?

Definitely contemporary to the 19th Century. Possibly made during the Civil War when change was scarce and fakes would have been easier to pass.

I keep forgetting that at one time, three cents BOUGHT something.

When I was a kid we used to go looking for pop bottles in the alley by us and then go cash them in at the corner store for 2 cents worth of candy or two giant pretzel sticks.

CaptHenway · January 13, 2017 6:13PM

Good catch on the different dies.

Rollerman · January 13, 2017 9:24PM

The star looks too small to me,

Koinicker · January 14, 2017 5:17AM

Upon further review, I believe the obverse die elements of the Shield (wider lines) and Star (added outline), and part of the date (connected top 8, rather than a pincer 8), have been re-engraved (strengthened) rather than this being a separate die. All other obverse design elements line up between the two pieces.

CaptHenway · January 14, 2017 7:47AM

@Koinicker said:
Upon further review, I believe the obverse die elements of the Shield (wider lines) and Star (added outline), and part of the date (connected top 8, rather than a pincer 8), have been re-engraved (strengthened) rather than this being a separate die. All other obverse design elements line up between the two pieces.

You may be right.

johnny9434 · January 14, 2017 8:52AM

i love the funky date on it. just saying

Pushkin · January 14, 2017 8:59AM

Thanks for posting. There's a certain sadness that seem to emanate from that coin. Maybe it knows that its counterfeit and feels guilty.

Interesting 1853 3-cent silver

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