Canadian Large Cents: Red-Brown versus Red

jonruns

I have just started a collection of Canadian Large Cents and have some questions of the designation of Red-Brown versus Red.

1. What percentage Red does a coin have to be to get the "Red" designation by PCGS? Do ICCS and CCCS use the same percentage?

2. Red Large Cents seem to be premium priced versus the same grade in Red-Brown and Brown...there are fewer of them and maybe they are more popular...do you think the premium is worth it...given the risk that Red could turn Red-Brown in the holder??

3. Have PCGS standards changed over the years with regards to Red versus Red-Brown??

Below are two new acquisitions!!! - Jon

TomB

I would expect that the percentage red to receive the RD designation on Canadian cents would be the same as with US cents. I do not know where ICCS or CCCS stand on the issue, however. PCGS defines RD as 95% or more of the original red color remaining and BN as 5% or less of the original red color remaining with the intervening amount (5%-95% original red color remaining) as RB.

I worry about the premium for RD designated Canadian large cents, especially coins certified in newer holders. If they are in older holders, and if I believe the RD designation is warranted on a case-by-case basis, then I think the premium can be justified.

As far as I can recall, the RD, RB and BN definitions have been fairly constant, but you will see coins in older holders that have turned or darkened over the years so that a previously RD coin that is in a RD-designated holder might actually be RB today.

I like them both, but the 1917 really appears to have a nice glow to it.

Boosibri

As usual... what TomB says

1960NYGiants

Member Bosox - Rob Turner is an expert on Canadian large cents and has assisted in getting PCGS to add some of the more recognized varieties to the registry sets. I'll send him a heads up to this thread.

BTW - TomB is probably right on with his comments. I'll add that my experience is that the other TPG's are not as strict about red as PCGS.

1960NYGiants

Also PCGS no longer honors red color guarantee. So if the coin does tone in the holder, so be it. BTW - copper, actually bronze for Canadian cents, is an active metal and will eventually tone. All depends on storage conditions.

bosox

Tom is correct. PCGS is far, far tougher on the red designation than either Canadian TPG. If anything, PCGS has gotten tougher on red designations over the years.

lordmarcovan

No specific commentary on RB/RD standards, but hey, those are nice looking cents in the OP.

jonruns

Thanks for the input guys!!! From one of my Canadian dealers:

"ICCS and CCCS are a lot more lenient on the red designation then PCGS, even with Canadian cents.

PCGS gives red when it is 90%+ red. ICCS and CCCS gives it at around 75% and up. That is why PCGS red designations carry a premium...(probably closer to Trends pricing)..."

jdimmick

Not Canadian as I don't have experience in grading those, but PCGS usually gives RD designation to 90% Plus red.
There is a slight variance IMO from Indians to lincolns on the percentage from what I can see in grades assessed.

I always felt that this needs to be expanded at bit to something like:
RD, RRDBN RB BNRBN BN
spelled out RED, Redbrown, redredbrown, redbrown, brownredbrown and finally brown
also possibly some kind of indication of purple /blue mixed with red as PCGS and I believe NGC automatically assigned BN designation to coins that have this in the color.
I have an 1877 Indian in 64 that is probably one of the most eye-appealing 77's you will ever see for a coin in that grade, but because it has a touch of purple/magenta its in a brown holder. It cannont be priced comparably to brn coins of that grade, its simple ridiculous, when Eye-appeal is off the charts.

ajaan

I always heard if a coin is 80% red, it'll get a RED by ICCS. You really have to look at the coin in an ICCS flip.

bosox

Actually ICCS will call one red at about 50%.

YQQ

have seen red and then another red from another TPG and another red again from another TPG and another one.
Until we have an established NORM so every TPG will call the same red a RED, I personally see simply RED

Happy new year

BIGAL2749

If the reverse matches the obverses I would think the 1917 was Red and if not should be designated RRBn as jdimmick suggests

I always felt that this needs to be expanded at bit to something like:
RD, RRDBN RB BNRBN BN
spelled out RED, Redbrown, redredbrown, redbrown, brownredbrown and finally brown
also possibly some kind of indication of purple /blue mixed with red as PCGS and I believe NGC automatically assigned BN designation to coins that have this in the color.
I have an 1877 Indian in 64 that is probably one of the most eye-appealing 77's you will ever see for a coin in that grade, but because it has a touch of purple/magenta its in a brown holder. It cannont be priced comparably to brn coins of that grade, its simple ridiculous, when Eye-appeal is off the charts.

asheland

Yet another reason why the old holders are so nice to have. They are likely stable by now and what you see is what you should have from this point forward. As long as you store them properly

YQQ

this coin (my avatar) was designated R (Red) by a Canadian TPG.
would you agree?
Or, if not, what would you designate it?
what grade would you assess for this side?

TomB

The cent looks attractive, but in my opinion this coin would go RB at PCGS and I would not pay a color designation based premium for it if it were in a RD holder.

Yorkshireman

I have always appreciated the look of Canadian large cents.
I am especially partial to Victorian era coins.

jonruns

YQQ -- no question in my mind...that is RB at PCGS...beautiful coin!

PatAR

Some very nice coins in this thread!

Although I do own one PCGS RD piece and several RB, I must admit that I generally prefer chocolate brown BN coins for the very reasons you mentioned. Copper and bronze will eventually darken. Most exhibit some mottling, which is fine for RB coins and can be appealing depending on how it manifests on the particular coin. With a smooth chocolate brown coin you can be reasonably confident that the coin's appearance is stable. I also happen to find them very attractive. Of course, a truly smooth chocolate brown coin can be even harder to find than red.

jonruns

@PatAR said: Of course, a truly smooth chocolate brown coin can be even harder to find than red.

Now that I look more closely you're right...PCGS population numbers show more Mint State RB than MS Brown for most Canadian Large Cents...