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Questionable toning on PCGS coins?
logger7
Posts: 8,094 ✭✭✭✭✭
A few examples, some say a result of gasses introduced into the coins through mini-drills: http://www.ebay.com/itm/1923-Silver-Peace-Dollar-PCGS-MS63-Monster-Rainbow-Color-Toned-Gem-INCREDIBLE/282294092449?_trksid=p2050601.c100085.m2372&_trkparms=aid=111001&algo=REC.SEED&ao=1&asc=37338&meid=8267a5b98751406e81e937f4fb9ceffc&pid=100085&rk=4&rkt=4&sd=122283749702&clkid=1501093443650625589&_qi=RTM2247628
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I see this seller's offerings and just puke. Run Forest Run....multiples at that!
bob:(
Earlier thread: https://forums.collectors.com/discussion/970898/well-this-is-a-little-concerning/p1
Yeah there are many posts about this seller. You can google search a lot of the cert numbers and find where they sourced the coins before baking them.
Collector, occasional seller
Here are the 2 toned Peace dollars:
Coin 1: PCGS-81852309 for $1,147.98
Coin 2: PCGS-11152390 for $499.98
How could corporate address the issue if they are sure of tampering? I have seen NGC nullify certification in similar cases.
Any idea why the PCGS insert says "California" on PCGS-11152390.
Search "The Orlando Mint" to get an idea of the scope of what they are doing.
Possibly, it may at one time have been part of a registry set that qualified for personalized labels and that was from the "California" collection.
Great transactions with oih82w8, JasonGaming, Moose1913.
500 feedbacks in the last month. Actual sales are usually a lot more. Seems like a major operator.
I simply don't believe PCGS slabbed that coin as it now looks. Please PCGS get involved.
rainbowroosie April 1, 2003
I would ping PCGS via the board....
Either Don Willis or Mark Stephenson would be the choices I would do.....just to let them know (though they have probably been alerted) and if they care to be alerted when more are shown.
If they are already working on something, or have taken some action, they may not care about more as they have enough.
If they weren't aware, they may appreciate the info.
So, rather than thread after thread about the same seller and the same type of slab invasion to AT coins, take the bull by the horns and do a direct contact to the heads of PCGS......
But, what do I know?
I've been told I tolerate fools poorly...that may explain things if I have a problem with you. Current ebay items - Nothing at the moment
They aren't quarters so I don't what man would do this to coins
That would be a perfect response to the idiots but I have a feeling it wouldn't slow them down a bit and would only leave the buyers holding the bag. They have feedback that notifies potential buyers of the crap but it doesn't seem to have an effect on their ability to keep selling. They should be charged on their spiel alone... they dare to suggest investing in these coins could perhaps pay for college or provide a bit of security if hard times come?
"A dog breaks your heart only one time and that is when they pass on". Unknown
Haven't checked the second, but first example is noted as a PR 63 in description.
I'll join the list of those that would love to see our host get involved
EC
As long as ridiculous premiums are paid for environmental damage, this will continue. Cheers, RickO
For every buyer scammed by sellers like this, there are many collectors and hobbyists that will ultimately be turned off to the hobby. And many legitimate sellers losing business. 500 feedbacks in a month, probably 600 plus actual sales, "private" sales. Very fishy.
I think ATS says to contact ATS so the collector may not be holding the bag but cert verification would indicate there is an issue with the coin. The best of both worlds.
The fact that the PCGS guarantee is null and void if the holder has been tampered or otherwise compromised is tailor made for this type of problem.
Can we see evidence of the tampering from the photos? Or alternately, do we know tampering can be detected on these?
My understanding has been that the holders are not sealed "air tight". If this is truly the case then no tampering of the holder is needed to "gas" the coin inside of the holder.
The "California" collection was formed by the late Lloyd Gabbert, a very successful businessman (lumber), and a real classy person. Many of his coins were provenanced, even if they were not part of Registry sets. One of his most prominent Registry sets was a complete, high ranking Morgan Dollar set. Lloyd had no particular interest in toned, common date coins. I'm quite confident that the coin did not have this toning present when Lloyd owned it.
"Everything is on its way to somewhere. Everything." - George Malley, Phenomenon
http://www.americanlegacycoins.com
Perhaps if PCGS could develop a label insert that reacts to the "gassing" of the holder, such that the label reveals a "VOID" message, or in some other way changes so that it becomes easily notable that something fishy has taken place, that could help to slow the fraud down.
I suspect that most collectors and dealers take moderate efforts to prevent their slabbed coins from being introduced into a harmful environment, at least certainly for any prolonged period of time. Therefore there shouldn't be any fear of inadvertently voiding a slab by a legitimate collector or dealer.
Maybe PCGS could attempt to improve the impermeability of the slabs themselves, particularly the area where the coin itself resides. These type of steps, along with moving slabbed coins to the improved Secure Slab format, whereby pictures are taken at the time of slabbing, could help potential buyers avoid being scammed.
Regardless of what developments can or can't be made to the slabs themselves, I think continued vigilance against fraud at all levels by those of us involved in this hobby/business, meaning - collectors, dealers, auction houses and the TPG's, is what ultimately will always be needed to preserve this wonderful hobby that we all enjoy so much.
Charles III Album
Charles III Portrait Set
Charles IV Album
Charles IV Portrait Set
Seems to me that any coin Trueviewed would be protected. If the pic does't match the coin.......something is amuck.