@STEWARTBLAYNUMIS said:
Sorry coindeuce ! It baffles me why a consignor would re consign a coin 3 months after he
Bought it in an auction.
PCGS needs to leave the value blank. Someone should tell Jaime or whoever that is responsible for values that there is no value until a coin sells public ally at auction.
Money.. or placed a bid a coin he did not really want ,but won any ways
Seems like a lot of diversity here, and I do not mean to offend, but let me offer the following:
Buy the coin, not the slab is still the mantra. You should know what to look for and use the grade listed as just a starting point.
When I read this it seems that the comments about "us being dumb" implies that "gradeflation" is automatic. If you have ever tried the "crack-out" game you will humbled quite quickly. It is not that easy. Even the best folks cannot get upgrades all the time. The worse is when that coin comes back with a previous undiscovered problem.....
When you find a coin that has upgraded, you have to get introspective and ask yourself how YOU missed that opportunity. Blaming others for playing the grade-game is saying that they should not be rewarded for the risk they took. A risk, by the way, someone else refused to take.
Although the TPGs are the final word, they cannot get it right the first time 100% of the time. That is just naive. Grading is still a crowd-sourcing activity.
Grade guarantees are very real, and while there are marginal cases to prove anything, the predominant consensus is that both PCGS and NGC have provided more stability to the coin market than just about anything else. Nothing is perfect, but investing in yourself and understanding and taking risks should be the main lesson you take away from this thread.
MLAeBayNumismatics: "The greatest hobby in the world!"
@fishteeth said:
there is a coin in FUN that just sold in August that went from MS61 to MS64, I felt it was a 63 when I saw the coin and it sold for 63 money, interested to see what it goes for now.
How can a coin go from a 61 to a 64? I don't like the sound of that!! How could it be graded originally 3 points off ? Something stinks here bud!!
The bitterness of "Poor Quality" is remembered long after the sweetness of low price is forgotten.
I have seen several coins bought and 6 months later auctioned again by Heritage. Not one coin flipper broke anywhere close to breaking even. If you think about it the person that got it was the high bidder and all other bidders bowed out before the hammer hit the table. As far as upgrades the seller probably trying both TPG services and then put the coin up for auction. I buy the coin for what it is and don't have any thoughts of turning it loose. Instead of upgrade I see more coins that were dipped between the first and second auction.
As far as the previous price paid I cannot remember seeing one coin that went backwards on the price. Heritage is going to get paid no matter what a coin goes for and showing what it went for prior in an auction is a way Heritage is trying to show these coins have a great track record. For them its more volume and that is all about selling more coins.
Hmmm...I heard Stuart Blay was the buyer at 6500 hammer. ironic? A coimcidence? I think not. What do you say Stuart? I think AMRC's comments are spot on BTW.
Stuart was indeed the buyer of the 25D Lincoln. He comes on the message boards and not only "rips" the owner of the coin but gives his opinion of value of both the coin in the current grade and his value of a 66RD coin. It appears he was trying to "taint" the coin so he could buy it as cheaply as possible. Very nice self serving post Stuart. Welcome back to the message boards. IMHO you've shown your true colors...
Walker Proof Digital Album Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
Chris Neapolitan Numismatics owned the coin and was trying to sell it for $15,000
He could not sell it so he consigned it
Why should I not rip the coin and try to buy it cheaper?
Yes I bought the coin
Perhaps Chris can state why he takes shots at dealers and collectors ?
Stewart,
I offered this coin to ONE person, and decided to put it in the auction and let it sell for what it's worth. With the spread between 65+RD and 66RD (pop 1, 2 higher), you got a very good deal. In fact, you said you "ripped" it...you obviously had a much higher number to pay. I didn't take a "shot", I just offered it to the wrong person. I should have offered it to YOU. I sell millions of dollars of coins a year through many venues. Since when did pricing coins become an exact science? Another coin I sold in the sale went for 4x what I was asking for it on the floor. If pricing/grading was an exact science, and everyone saw the exact thing on every coin, I doubt we would need coin shows or auctions.
As for your reason for this post, I agree with TDN, regardless of who owns the coin. And if you get the coin in a 66RD holder I believe you deserve the upgrade. Your tactics however, are poor, and I would say if the shoe were on the other foot and I did them same thing with your coins, you would be the first to scream bloody murder.
I'm happy to discuss with you offline. you have my contact information.
Whether it brought 3k or 20k, I let the market dictate value. Although I Thought it could bring 15k, there needs to be TWO buyers who feel the same way. You always need the under bidder. At the end of the day, I felt it brought a fair price. Since Stewart thought he "ripped it" and I still graded it an outside shot 66RD, and I hope Stewart gets the upgrade. I just think his scare tactics were self serving and unecessary.
Chris - You could have offered me the coin. However the Lincoln cent market is very depressed. The PCGS price guide for a 66 red is more than double what one would bring in today's market. Even at $25,000 it would be a very tough sell. I misquoted the word "ripped".
No way did I rip the coin. I meant to say bad mouthed the coin.
Of course my tactics were self serving. I don't see anything wrong with trying to
Disparage "punters" from buying the coin.
Remember, I like to have FUN !
@fishteeth said:
there is a coin in FUN that just sold in August that went from MS61 to MS64, I felt it was a 63 when I saw the coin and it sold for 63 money, interested to see what it goes for now.
How can a coin go from a 61 to a 64? I don't like the sound of that!! How could it be graded originally 3 points off ? Something stinks here bud!!
How about from an XF to MS62 on a $5 capped bust gold? Saw that on an old ANACS paper cert from the 1980's. The coin regraded at PCGS MS62, and was every bit of that. ANACS brutalized it back then. Wonderful coin. I've seen some brutalized rattler/ogh MS61/62 $20 Libs and Saints end up as MS64. If anything, the early grades were just way too conservative.
Disgusting tactics above. And one of the many reasons I've stayed away from the "big time" coin market since 2009. And don't forget to .........."have fun with your coins." Where can I look up the definition for "numismatic punter?" First time I've run across it.
@roadrunner said:
Disgusting tactics above. And one of the many reasons I've stayed away from the "big time" coin market since 2009. And don't forget to .........."have fun with your coins." Where can I look up the definition for "numismatic punter?" First time I've run across it.
Perhaps but what if calling attention to the piece actually helped the hammer price? It doesn't appear to have hurt much if at all.
@roadrunner said:
Disgusting tactics above. And one of the many reasons I've stayed away from the "big time" coin market since 2009. And don't forget to .........."have fun with your coins." Where can I look up the definition for "numismatic punter?" First time I've run across it.
Perhaps but what if calling attention to the piece actually helped the hammer price? It doesn't appear to have hurt much if at all.
@roadrunner said:
Disgusting tactics above. And one of the many reasons I've stayed away from the "big time" coin market since 2009. And don't forget to .........."have fun with your coins." Where can I look up the definition for "numismatic punter?" First time I've run across it.
If you relate it to the UK slang ( I spend a lot of time there) --- I interpreted to mean either the uninitiated guessing at the results and bidding or the regular bloke.
mark
Walker Proof Digital Album Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
A numismatic punter is a gambler/investor. Someone who has TMM .
A GG is a graduate gemologist according to GIA . On the street a GG is a good guesser.
Tradedollarnut - Why would you bid on a 1925 d Lincoln cent ?
And I still am not as old as others... But Ray Guy likely was one of the best punters there ever was. I remember watching him play well over 40 years ago.
Never knew or heard of a numismatic punter until this thread...
Experience the World through Numismatics...it's more than you can imagine.
@STEWARTBLAYNUMIS said:
A numismatic punter is a gambler/investor. Someone who has TMM .
A GG is a graduate gemologist according to GIA . On the street a GG is a good guesser.
Tradedollarnut - Why would you bid on a 1925 d Lincoln cent ?
Stewart there was zero doubt that you were running a game from where I sat. TDN is sharper then I
Mark
Walker Proof Digital Album Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
@coinkat said:
And I still am not as old as others... But Ray Guy likely was one of the best punters there ever was. I remember watching him play well over 40 years ago.
Never knew or heard of a numismatic punter until this thread...
A bit OT. I believe Ray Guy was the first #1 punter draft pick when the Oakland Raiders drafted him. He was a great kicker. The punter designation is assigned to racetrack horse bettors quite often.
Successful transactions:Tookybandit. "Everyone is equal, some are more equal than others".
the person responsible for coming up with the idea of a Registry set is a total genius, a money maker, a financial guru, a smarty-pants.........I could keep going.
"Gold is money, and nothing else" (JP Morgan, 1912)
"“Those who sacrifice liberty for security/safety deserve neither.“(Benjamin Franklin)
@tradedollarnut said:
CNN - still waiting on my cup of Starbucks
He's owed me a pastrami sandwich for almost 3 years. The "NY Deli" near his office likely gets theirs from the same distributor that recommends Cheez-Wiz on their "Philly Cheese Steak"
"People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf." - Geo. Orwell
I could not find an answer to your question in any of the responses above.
Your question is this - How dumb are some consignors to or buyers from auction ?
In my opinion, the answer is "Very dumb".
Have faith guys, the market will always sort itself out. I see plenty of dreck coins every week at auction that don't sell or go for much less than a nice coin properly graded go for. I think PCGS has been much stricter on grading recently. Agree with the comment someone made earlier about plenty of coins on the market would be knocked down a grade or two if resubmitted.
@ColonelJessup said:
Your local cuisine isn't doing well here either. The In-N-Out-Burger down the block from me went broke too.
Maybe it was a bootleg shop or are you thinking about 5 Guys or Shake Shake ? I’m fairly sure no In-N-Out Burgers are east of Texas. I assume you are east coast. I’m in NYC now and I would love to indulge on an In-N-Out Burger.
m
Walker Proof Digital Album Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
I made that up
It was a bitchy whimsically sardonic commentary on "The Cuisine of the 405".
Back East we have Philly Cheese Steaks with actual provolone.
Ask @Bodin or any actor who's spent time in New Yawk, only our water can steam corned beef or pastrami right
And then, of course, we have the OP, who is a world-class source of baloney.
Where is that dancing smiley when I need one?
"People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf." - Geo. Orwell
@ColonelJessup said:
I made that up
It was a bitchy whimsically sardonic commentary on "The Cuisine of the 405".
Back East we have Philly Cheese Steaks with actual provolone.
Ask @Bodin or any actor who's spent time in New Yawk, only our water can steam corned beef or pastrami right
And then, of course, we have the OP, who is a world-class source of baloney.
Where is that dancing smiley when I need one?
Hah!
m
Walker Proof Digital Album Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
Do not know. Heritage crapped in their bread basket when they raised the bp to 20%. I see far less of the quality coins I collect in their auctions and taking 20% from the seller (educated buyers back out the bp) when bidding and I am not a buyer or seller through Heritage. Most of what they have to sell is their inventory and a vast majority are generic or problem coins.
How dumb can buyers be? ALL dealers love nothing more to have coins on their web sites passed up only to watch someone they know pay more in auction. It happens every sale some where.
Its not dumb, just instant gratification. Little do the buyers know, most of the time the under bidders have moved on. The down side is far more at auction then if they bought from a good dealer.
And sellers, show me a seller who does not believe their coin will not be involved in a never ending shoot out.
Comments
Money.. or placed a bid a coin he did not really want ,but won any ways
If this coin sells at auction and then later shows up again with the well deserved plus, will the new buyer be stupid?
@tradedollarnut
Well at least two people thought so.
It sold for $16,450 in August 2016 under a different cert#.
Seems like a lot of diversity here, and I do not mean to offend, but let me offer the following:
Buy the coin, not the slab is still the mantra. You should know what to look for and use the grade listed as just a starting point.
When I read this it seems that the comments about "us being dumb" implies that "gradeflation" is automatic. If you have ever tried the "crack-out" game you will humbled quite quickly. It is not that easy. Even the best folks cannot get upgrades all the time. The worse is when that coin comes back with a previous undiscovered problem.....
When you find a coin that has upgraded, you have to get introspective and ask yourself how YOU missed that opportunity. Blaming others for playing the grade-game is saying that they should not be rewarded for the risk they took. A risk, by the way, someone else refused to take.
Although the TPGs are the final word, they cannot get it right the first time 100% of the time. That is just naive. Grading is still a crowd-sourcing activity.
Grade guarantees are very real, and while there are marginal cases to prove anything, the predominant consensus is that both PCGS and NGC have provided more stability to the coin market than just about anything else. Nothing is perfect, but investing in yourself and understanding and taking risks should be the main lesson you take away from this thread.
How can a coin go from a 61 to a 64? I don't like the sound of that!! How could it be graded originally 3 points off ? Something stinks here bud!!
There are different degrees of rub, all the way from AU58 to AU64, I mean MS64.
I have seen several coins bought and 6 months later auctioned again by Heritage. Not one coin flipper broke anywhere close to breaking even. If you think about it the person that got it was the high bidder and all other bidders bowed out before the hammer hit the table. As far as upgrades the seller probably trying both TPG services and then put the coin up for auction. I buy the coin for what it is and don't have any thoughts of turning it loose. Instead of upgrade I see more coins that were dipped between the first and second auction.
As far as the previous price paid I cannot remember seeing one coin that went backwards on the price. Heritage is going to get paid no matter what a coin goes for and showing what it went for prior in an auction is a way Heritage is trying to show these coins have a great track record. For them its more volume and that is all about selling more coins.
Hmmm...I heard Stuart Blay was the buyer at 6500 hammer. ironic? A coimcidence? I think not. What do you say Stuart? I think AMRC's comments are spot on BTW.
HA push the price a lot (maybe the seller push it). So just bid the bid the price you want to pay. Does HA charge seller fee for buying back the coin?
Stuart was indeed the buyer of the 25D Lincoln. He comes on the message boards and not only "rips" the owner of the coin but gives his opinion of value of both the coin in the current grade and his value of a 66RD coin. It appears he was trying to "taint" the coin so he could buy it as cheaply as possible. Very nice self serving post Stuart. Welcome back to the message boards. IMHO you've shown your true colors...
Stewart
mark
Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
...MS66RD???
Chris Neapolitan Numismatics owned the coin and was trying to sell it for $15,000
He could not sell it so he consigned it
Why should I not rip the coin and try to buy it cheaper?
Yes I bought the coin
Perhaps Chris can state why he takes shots at dealers and collectors ?
Tradedollarnut - When did you become an authority on Copper and Lincoln cents ?
I saw the coin at the ANA Heritage Auction and felt the color was questionable
So I disagree with you the coin should deserve a plus
Why should I not rip the coin and try to buy it cheaper?
That part is fine. Talking the coin down before doing so is poor form, however
..........so the PCGS Price Guide wasn't so far off was it?
Let's be friends, all's fair in love and war.
And coins too!
Stewart,
I offered this coin to ONE person, and decided to put it in the auction and let it sell for what it's worth. With the spread between 65+RD and 66RD (pop 1, 2 higher), you got a very good deal. In fact, you said you "ripped" it...you obviously had a much higher number to pay. I didn't take a "shot", I just offered it to the wrong person. I should have offered it to YOU. I sell millions of dollars of coins a year through many venues. Since when did pricing coins become an exact science? Another coin I sold in the sale went for 4x what I was asking for it on the floor. If pricing/grading was an exact science, and everyone saw the exact thing on every coin, I doubt we would need coin shows or auctions.
As for your reason for this post, I agree with TDN, regardless of who owns the coin. And if you get the coin in a 66RD holder I believe you deserve the upgrade. Your tactics however, are poor, and I would say if the shoe were on the other foot and I did them same thing with your coins, you would be the first to scream bloody murder.
I'm happy to discuss with you offline. you have my contact information.
@cnncoins: Are you happy with the $$ it brought? On the surface it seems to be a pretty strong price. I'm not trying to stir the pot, just curious.
Are the dogs out yet?
Whether it brought 3k or 20k, I let the market dictate value. Although I Thought it could bring 15k, there needs to be TWO buyers who feel the same way. You always need the under bidder. At the end of the day, I felt it brought a fair price. Since Stewart thought he "ripped it" and I still graded it an outside shot 66RD, and I hope Stewart gets the upgrade. I just think his scare tactics were self serving and unecessary.
Chris - You could have offered me the coin. However the Lincoln cent market is very depressed. The PCGS price guide for a 66 red is more than double what one would bring in today's market. Even at $25,000 it would be a very tough sell. I misquoted the word "ripped".
No way did I rip the coin. I meant to say bad mouthed the coin.
Of course my tactics were self serving. I don't see anything wrong with trying to
Disparage "punters" from buying the coin.
Remember, I like to have FUN !
Stewart
How about from an XF to MS62 on a $5 capped bust gold? Saw that on an old ANACS paper cert from the 1980's. The coin regraded at PCGS MS62, and was every bit of that. ANACS brutalized it back then. Wonderful coin. I've seen some brutalized rattler/ogh MS61/62 $20 Libs and Saints end up as MS64. If anything, the early grades were just way too conservative.
Disgusting tactics above. And one of the many reasons I've stayed away from the "big time" coin market since 2009. And don't forget to .........."have fun with your coins." Where can I look up the definition for "numismatic punter?" First time I've run across it.
Perhaps but what if calling attention to the piece actually helped the hammer price? It doesn't appear to have hurt much if at all.
I put in two bids.
If you relate it to the UK slang ( I spend a lot of time there) --- I interpreted to mean either the uninitiated guessing at the results and bidding or the regular bloke.
mark
Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
Could be that Ray Guy is a numismatist...
Experience the World through Numismatics...it's more than you can imagine.
A numismatic punter is a gambler/investor. Someone who has TMM .
A GG is a graduate gemologist according to GIA . On the street a GG is a good guesser.
Tradedollarnut - Why would you bid on a 1925 d Lincoln cent ?
Ray Guy!? Man you are showing your age.
I hadn't heard that name in 40 years. 
To run it up to counter distasteful tactics. Besides, the consignor promised me a cup of Starbucks.
And I still am not as old as others... But Ray Guy likely was one of the best punters there ever was. I remember watching him play well over 40 years ago.
Never knew or heard of a numismatic punter until this thread...
Experience the World through Numismatics...it's more than you can imagine.
Stewart there was zero doubt that you were running a game from where I sat. TDN is sharper then I
Mark
Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
A bit OT. I believe Ray Guy was the first #1 punter draft pick when the Oakland Raiders drafted him. He was a great kicker. The punter designation is assigned to racetrack horse bettors quite often.
CNN - still waiting on my cup of Starbucks
I've said it before......
the person responsible for coming up with the idea of a Registry set is a total genius, a money maker, a financial guru, a smarty-pants.........I could keep going.
"“Those who sacrifice liberty for security/safety deserve neither.“(Benjamin Franklin)
"I only golf on days that end in 'Y'" (DE59)
He's owed me a pastrami sandwich for almost 3 years. The "NY Deli" near his office likely gets theirs from the same distributor that recommends Cheez-Wiz on their "Philly Cheese Steak"
I could not find an answer to your question in any of the responses above.
Your question is this - How dumb are some consignors to or buyers from auction ?
In my opinion, the answer is "Very dumb".
Bruce,
Next time I see you, I'm buying...
Colonel...the Deli went out of business 2 years ago....this isn't NY where there's another one down the block
Have faith guys, the market will always sort itself out. I see plenty of dreck coins every week at auction that don't sell or go for much less than a nice coin properly graded go for. I think PCGS has been much stricter on grading recently. Agree with the comment someone made earlier about plenty of coins on the market would be knocked down a grade or two if resubmitted.
thechristophercollection.net
Your local cuisine isn't doing well here either. The In-N-Out-Burger down the block from me went broke too.
Maybe it was a bootleg shop or are you thinking about 5 Guys or Shake Shake ? I’m fairly sure no In-N-Out Burgers are east of Texas. I assume you are east coast. I’m in NYC now and I would love to indulge on an In-N-Out Burger.
m
Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
I made that up
It was a bitchy whimsically sardonic commentary on "The Cuisine of the 405".
Back East we have Philly Cheese Steaks with actual provolone.
Ask @Bodin or any actor who's spent time in New Yawk, only our water can steam corned beef or pastrami right
And then, of course, we have the OP, who is a world-class source of baloney.
Where is that dancing smiley when I need one?
Hah!
m
Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
Do not know. Heritage crapped in their bread basket when they raised the bp to 20%. I see far less of the quality coins I collect in their auctions and taking 20% from the seller (educated buyers back out the bp) when bidding and I am not a buyer or seller through Heritage. Most of what they have to sell is their inventory and a vast majority are generic or problem coins.
How dumb can buyers be? ALL dealers love nothing more to have coins on their web sites passed up only to watch someone they know pay more in auction. It happens every sale some where.
Its not dumb, just instant gratification. Little do the buyers know, most of the time the under bidders have moved on. The down side is far more at auction then if they bought from a good dealer.
And sellers, show me a seller who does not believe their coin will not be involved in a never ending shoot out.
None if it is dumb, it is just auction fever!