UPDATED PHOTOS: Jefferson Nickel Variety of the Week - 1961 Proof "LIBERTY" Variety?
BigDowgie
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Jefferson Nickel Variety of the Week - 1961 Proof "LIBERTY" Variety?
Ok crew, I just got back from our local coin show and totally baffled by this one. First, I have never heard nor seen one of these before! Second, looking at this one I find it hard to say that middle bar of the "E" in LIBERTY has been abraded off. The area where it should be is too perfect, as well as the inside portion of the vertical line where that bar would have been attached. I sent a picture to James Wiles to see if he has heard/seen one of these and this response is below:
"I have seen it before. It pops up ever so often. I could be struck through debris, but because it does show up with some frequency, I suspect it was over abraded."
I for one, disagree with the abraded suspicion. Could there be a proof die with an incomplete "E"? Let me know what you think?
A fellow collector was able to get me his example for me to photograph. I never knew he had it, nor did he! He went through a pile of toned coins and guess what he found! How crazy is this!
As always....happy hunting!
First Example
Seconde Example
Regular Proof 1
Regular Proof 2
Comments
Don't think I have ever handled one, so I can only go by the pictures.
Look at the toe of the "R." Is there some difference there, or is it just the lighting?
CaptHenway, I can report that the lettering on the top example appears to be a little shallower (or less raised) than the bottom two. However, I just cannot see how the entire middle bar could be abraded off without totally distorting that area and produce a perfect vertical line where the bar connects. There are no abrasion lines or uneven surface areas on this example.
Wow, that is neat. Definitely does not look abraded to me either. I think you have a incomplete "E" there.
I like it! Cool find!
Looking for Top Pop Mercury Dime Varieties & High Grade Mercury Dime Toners.
That's cool. I really appreciate your weekly posts. Very informative. Now, where are those 1961 proof sets?????
My War Nickels https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/nickels/jefferson-nickels-specialty-sets/jefferson-nickels-fs-basic-war-set-circulation-strikes-1942-1945/publishedset/94452
toyz4geo, actually I forgot to mention that this coin is in the original Mint package.
Really interesting, My first thought was die abrasion, but, like you, I don't see evidence of it. If the proof die was imcomplete/damaged somehow surely many others would have surfaced.
I've never seen one like this before and I have looked at many many many of them.
I guess it could be struck through something, but again, you would think the serif on the E wouldn't be as "perfectly imperfect" as it is.
Maybe it's possible that the defective die was detected very early and pulled; but wouldn't the hub have to be damaged as well? So, I don't know,
Definitely one I would hang on to.
Quite cool.
I love it!
I ask again. Look at the "toe" of the leg on the R. Doesn't it look broken off on the die with the incomplete E?
I see what you see as well but it is very difficult to tell definitively from the photos. I will say it looks different.
Looking for Top Pop Mercury Dime Varieties & High Grade Mercury Dime Toners.
Monster find is my guess.
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Yeah, I'm just now seeing that.
I agree it looks as though you do have an example with an incomplete "E" and I for one thinks it's cool as all hell.
Every time I read these VERY educational posts of yours I gotta go to work looking through rolls of my nickels just like I'm gonna do tonight is I don't sleep, again.
Much appreciated and keep up the good work. I REALLY like the piece your showing here.
Joe
Crew, a second example has been confirmed. Picture added to the original post.
crazyhounddog - What are you inferring with the incomplete "E"? I'm not sure of the point you are trying to make.
That's Waaaaaaay cool...............kinda funny but I have given away more 1961 proof sets as gifts than anything else, just that about everyone I have known all my life was born in 61, including my wife and her twin sister, past GF's my best buds...............I've always wondered if any had the DDR halfs now I wonder if they have this.............totally cool and weird that I haven't heard about it before.
Steve
Thanks. Shows slight differences in both legs of the R and the base of the T. Top of the T looks a little ragged also.
Looking at the E on the normal coins, it does seem as though the center crossbar is in slightly lower relief than the upright next to it. See the little stepdown? If this is true then you could polish away all of the crossbar while leaving the outline of the upright intact, just shallow.
Wish I knew how the Mint polished Proof dies in 1961. If it was some sort of a basining disc like they used on Morgan dollars in the older days (and I rather suspect that this was NOT the case), then I could see the die being positioned against the disc at a slight angle with the E of LIBERTY (by sheer coincidence) closest to the disc and the center being polished away.
A more likely explanation would be that the die somehow got damaged near the E, and got over-enthusiastically buffed out to repair the damage. Shades of the 1937-D 3-legged nickel.
TD
Star at the right seems shallower as well
Steve
Coolest new thing in modern coins I've seen in a while! Very interesting and great pictures, would appreciate a couple shots of the whole coin, if possible.
Liberty: Parent of Science & Industry
I agree the lettering is shallower, which implies die polishing has occurred. However, I still can't stretch my imagination far enough to believe that stem of the "E" was completely and perfectly polished off as not to leave any other visible evidence or other surface or lettering distortions.
I tried to take a some photos with the coin tipped at an angle to help you see the depth of the lettering. Does this change any opinions?
I had to look at mine as well - I found 2
The question of missing or abrasion seems to be answered on the opposite side of the obverse
mine both have 'PEG LEGS' of the middle of the E in WE, there is no serif and smaller than typical
I vote abrasion
Another possibility.... though I consider it pretty remote.
I also took note of the 'lower' relief for the center crossbar, as mentioned by CaptHenway. I also note that the entire 'LIBERTY' seems to be lower relief overall when compared to the normal examples. What if... when making the working proof die, they missed some of the multiple pressings? My understanding is they do several pressings to transfer the design sufficiently (which is how our desirable doubled dies are made). But if they did only one or so, perhaps that lower relief center bar was never transferred, and resulting in more shallow devices overall.
IF this was the case, I would expect the rest of the obverse to display a more shallow design also. What does the rest of the obverse look like? Any other 'recessed' \areas where design is much weaker?
Most likely cause is some sort of polishing as previously mentioned, but wanted to throw out another scenario for consideration.
BTW... a very neat variety! Will be watching out for one myself!
So much for my previous theory! Posted before looking at pics of davewesen. Die abrasion/polishing certainly looks like the likely cause.
Very interesting....another search to add to my list...... maybe this time I will get lucky...
Cheers, RickO
better pics of peg-leg WE
davewesen, pretty cool you had a couple! You are not letting me down easy, as I was hoping for the "BIG ONE"! Below is a close-up of the "WE" and what you are calling the "Peg Leg". I still do not see how the portion of the "E" in LIBERTY could get polished off so cleanly!
Well was looking through a couple I had on hand somewhat without to much digging
any how one is extremely week...........sorry for lousy pics
so polishing may have contributed
Steve
Cool finds....looks like die polishing is the likely culprit.
The area where the crossbar is suppose to be looks soooooo untouched.
And the connecting area to the post is soooo perfect. Really weird.
I agree... that is why I starting thinking improper working die transfer. But rest of coin doesn't support that either.
I need to find one of these that is also a monster toner!
Looking for Top Pop Mercury Dime Varieties & High Grade Mercury Dime Toners.
can i send pic of my frith nickel?
I appreciate images but what is the purpose of Photo Bucket if you cannot load a clean image without a logo smacked all over it ?
Yeah, things have changed. I have not tried posting pictures in a while.
Now I have to dig out my 1961 sets...
No need for PB anymore. just drag the images in here. They obsoleted themselves when they took everyone's photos hostage and then plastered watermarks all over all of them upon "release".
Collector, occasional seller
Checked all my proof Jefferson Nick 1961, total of 6, and found 0.
Cool find though; I'll be looking.
I know.
After restudying this I am still not sure what happened. The most plausible answer is an overpolished die, but if you look at a normal E the difference in height between the middle crossbar and the upright is very small. Polish away the crossbar and there should be very little height left to the upright.
Alternative explanation of a broken hub where the crossbar chipped away would not leave such a smooth side to the upright. Not very plausible.
Alternative explanation of some sort of very hard substance clogging the crossbar before the die was polished, and being hard enough to take on a proof surface during the polishing, and transmit that proof surface to a hard coin, would not leave such a smooth side to the upright. Not very plausible,
Lacking a better explanation I will stick with overpolished die, but I am open to suggestion.
TD
I also noticed the leading edge of the loops of the B in LIBERTY has lost its distinct edge.
CapH, I had another error collector propose possibly a weakly hubbed working die with then a light die polishing that took the rest off.
I do have an example or two where that cross bar is super weak, but is still there.
I found this exact same coin today. In a 1961 proof set. 1961 Proof Jefferson Nickel missing the crossbar of the "E" in liberty.
SweetC81,
I have one of those proof sets as well. I think this one is pretty cool. I think this is a result of weakly hubbed working die. I don't see any evidence of greased filled or polishing. The field in that area is just too perfect. Let me know if you would ever part with that proof set!
I tried to find my old ones to review again and only found one of them. I also found a 1960 with similar issues in the same area. I tried taking pics of what I see, but the E seems to bevel down in the middle when look at from the side. Now I am thinking master die, since covers couple years.
First couple pics are the 1960, and third is 1961
Wow, should I open my 61 sets? This might finally make the five worth something. lol
Jim
When a man who is honestly mistaken hears the truth, he will either quit being mistaken or cease to be honest....Abraham Lincoln
Patriotism is supporting your country all the time, and your government when it deserves it.....Mark Twain
** I had another error collector propose possibly a weakly hubbed working die with then a light die polishing that took the rest off**.
this is sort of what my thinking is. first off, that an odd place to see polished, an odd place where something would happen that could require work. secondly, where that center crossbar joins the upright would be a point of weakness, so it's possible that at some point in the die's life that crossbar chipped off. the press operator would have noticed it and probably polished/re-worked the obverse die.
if the above happened there should be some trail left, some coins in transition from a normal die to a chipped die.
there is also the possibility that the crossbar chipped in the same manner while the working die was been made. if that's the case, there should be Deep Cameo or Cameo coins with the defect.
Dang.....now I have to hunt for that 1960!
Here are a few pictures of my coin. On another coin forum it's being agreed this is caused by a grease filled die. Also look at the bottom left corner of the "L" and the top of the "T"
If you look at the "L" and "T" from the pictures of the original poster they exhibited the same flaws. Does this indicate it has to be a master die mistake vs polished off?
Wait though...those two flaws are also seen on the coins with the crossbar intact on the "E" so this indicates maybe not an error in the master die but instead may be polished or chipped off. I am baffled by this on because as everyone else is stating the missing crossbar area is so clean and untouched looking.
if it was grease in a production die, it would eventually clear and coins would not be identical.
if it was grease in a master die, a die would be made and all coins would look the same.
so then it is grease in the master die? Why are some of the "E's" missing the crossbar and the rest are not. With the crossbar and without the crossbar the coins exhibit the same flaws.
I have some examples where the crossbar is barely showing, but there. I'll try to post a picture of one.
Another observation that has not been mentioned is the depth or thickness of the lettering. You will notice the lettering on the "missing crossbar" example appear less pronounced or shallower than the other. Maybe the working die was not hubbed sufficiently to push up the lettering, as normal. Thus excluding the crossbar from that die?