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1836 Republic of Texas Silver Dollar

ZoinsZoins Posts: 33,811 ✭✭✭✭✭
edited September 9, 2018 2:22PM in U.S. Coin Forum

Just ran across this Texas silver dollar while doing some searches and thought it was pretty neat. Does anyone have any information on this? Who struck this? Who designed / engraved this?

PCGS 81380370

«1

Comments

  • giorgio11giorgio11 Posts: 3,811 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited November 26, 2016 5:33AM

    I have never seen one before and I am a Texas native! PCGS lists it as a "(c.1950) $1 X-25 Silver Alamo Commemorative (Regular Strike)" under PCGS #609559 in the same "Territorial" broad classification as the Alaska RRC coins and Alaska gold pinches etc. Heritage has never sold one that I can find with that PCGS number.

    Some Googling around shows that this saying "Thermopylae had her messenger of defeat, the Alamo had none" seems to have been associated with the Texas massacre early on. The Battle of Thermopylae was the same story as portrayed in the movie 300, the Spartans under King Leonidas resisting the Persian Empire. None survived. At the Alamo, all of the men (save one male slave) were killed but a few women and children and the slave were allowed to leave unharmed by the Mexican general.

    Cool piece and a beautiful coin but I have no idea who struck it or why PCGS dates it to ca. 1950. It would seem that 1936 or 1986 would make more sense.

    Kind regards,

    George

    VDBCoins.com Our Registry Sets Many successful BSTs; pls ask.
  • ElKevvoElKevvo Posts: 4,057 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I have never seen on of those either...neat piece and also curious about it's origin. Thanks for posting!

    K

    ANA LM
  • giorgio11giorgio11 Posts: 3,811 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I found some more info here

    http://www.jezuss.nl/er/erik-linksT.htmjezuss.nl/er/erik-linksT.htm

    which includes this bit:

    "From Mr. Larry Johnson, I was fortunate to also purchase the hard-to-find 1836 silver “One Dollar” piece. The obverse shows a front-view of the Alamo. The reverse features a large Lone Star, along with the words “THERMOPYLÆ HAD HER MESSENGER OF DEFEAT THE ALAMO HAD NONE” (the comparison between the events at the Battle of the Alamo [February 23 - March 6, 1836] to the Battle of Thermopylae [480 B.C.] occurred shortly after the Texian defeat; the quotation implies that no one survived the Alamo battle to tell the Texans' story, but some people did indeed survive [all but two were non-combatants]; the phrase “Thermopylae had her messenger of defeat — the Alamo had none” was coined by General Edward Burleson, who served as Vice President of the Republic of Texas in President Sam Houston's second term from 1841-1844; it is said to have been spoken in a famous 1842 speech — ghost-written by Thomas Jefferson Green — before the Alamo; it was soon afterward included with three other quotations on the first Alamo monument in Austin, TX). Included with the coin was “the old 2x2 Kraft envelope [from the 1950's] with the name of Bill Ross [the collector died in 1961]. This medal came out of the large Ostheimer Collection of So Called Dollars and medals — it's a real gem.”

    Kind regards,

    George

    VDBCoins.com Our Registry Sets Many successful BSTs; pls ask.
  • giorgio11giorgio11 Posts: 3,811 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited November 26, 2016 6:25AM

    Ah. Now I see @zoins perhaps where you ran across it. The eBay Seller claims only 22 were made and that it is listed in KP's "Unusual Coins of the World, 4th edition." Anybody have that book? I do note that this appears to be the only one certified at PCGS in any grade. I looked through my SCD book, I could find nothing there that resembles it.

    http://www.ebay.com/itm/VERY-RARE-ALAMO-COMMEMORATIVE-DOLLAR-TEXAS-1-OF-ONLY-22-MINTED-TONED-PCGS-MS64-/112119311816?hash=item1a1ad4edc8:g:7jsAAOSwMgdXydO3

    Kind regards,

    George

    VDBCoins.com Our Registry Sets Many successful BSTs; pls ask.
  • rickoricko Posts: 98,724 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Very nice... that is a great coin. Having lived in Texas for several years, I find it particularly alluring. It embodies the spirit of Texas. Cheers, RickO

  • johnny9434johnny9434 Posts: 27,409 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @ElKevvo said:
    I have never seen on of those either...neat piece and also curious about it's origin. Thanks for posting!

    K

    I never seen one either, I agree

  • CaptHenwayCaptHenway Posts: 31,499 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Saw one of those back in the 70's. At the time thought of it as a modern fantasy.

    Numismatist. 50 year member ANA. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner numerous NLG Literary Awards.
  • topstuftopstuf Posts: 14,803 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Uh.... I just... um... stole your image to put in my...."fantasy collection" file. :/

  • ZoinsZoins Posts: 33,811 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @topstuf said:
    Uh.... I just... um... stole your image to put in my...."fantasy collection" file. :/

    Cool. I think fantasy collections can be fun to look at.

    I've also heard PCGS Registry allows fantasy collections but I've never looked into it.

  • ZoinsZoins Posts: 33,811 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited November 26, 2016 6:11PM

    @afford said:
    Lets just be clear that it was made in c1950.

    How do we know it was made in c1950? Who thought it was made in c1950 and based on what reasoning?

    Do we even know who issued this?

  • ZoinsZoins Posts: 33,811 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited November 26, 2016 6:17PM

    Yes, but there's nothing on that website that provides any reasoning or reference is there?

    It's likely more modern than 1836, but some information would be useful.

  • WillieBoyd2WillieBoyd2 Posts: 5,034 ✭✭✭✭✭

    It looks like a nice privately struck medal.

    :)

    https://www.brianrxm.com
    The Mysterious Egyptian Magic Coin
    Coins in Movies
    Coins on Television

  • dcarrdcarr Posts: 7,936 ✭✭✭✭✭

    The 6th edition of Krause "Unusual World coins" lists this in the "United States" section, "Texas Republic" subsection.
    This subsection lists the piece above, along with various early 19th century Mexican and American coins countermarked "TEXAS" and "2 BITS", "4 BITS", or "8 BITS". At the heading to this subsection, it states "Spurious countermarks produced ca. 1950".

  • giorgio11giorgio11 Posts: 3,811 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Finally, someone who actually cracks a reference book in this thread. I don't have the book and don't want to buy it just to satisfy my curiosity. @dcarr does it mention anything about a production of 22 pieces, as the eBay seller claims? Is there a confirming photo? Any other info? This certainly is not what I would call a "countermark" but I wonder if that is where PCGS got the (possibly mistaken) "ca 1950" bit from.

    Kind regards,

    George

    VDBCoins.com Our Registry Sets Many successful BSTs; pls ask.
  • illini420illini420 Posts: 11,466 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited November 27, 2016 6:00AM

    I have the 4th Edition of Krause Unusual World Coins (2005) handy and the X#25 coin does have a listed mintage of 22 there and there is a photo. The only information printed here is that the coin is silver and is an Alamo Commemorative. No date (or estimated date) of production is listed here. The pricing in this version guide just has $75 in VF, $145 in XF and $250 in UNC.

  • giorgio11giorgio11 Posts: 3,811 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Thanks @illini420 Michael, very helpful and I appreciate it. The price for the eBay coin seems awfully steep even so, but I suppose it never hurts to ask ...

    Kind regards,

    George

    VDBCoins.com Our Registry Sets Many successful BSTs; pls ask.
  • BIGAL2749BIGAL2749 Posts: 742 ✭✭✭✭

    "suppose it never hurts to ask..."

    Guy walking down the street asks a woman if she'd go to bed with him...gets slapped. He asks another.. gets slapped. Friend sees him continuing and asks him why he does that... guy responds "they don't all say no"

  • giorgio11giorgio11 Posts: 3,811 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @BIGAL2749 maybe that's why they call it a fantasy medal. :)

    Kind regards,

    George

    VDBCoins.com Our Registry Sets Many successful BSTs; pls ask.
  • dcarrdcarr Posts: 7,936 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @giorgio11 said:
    Finally, someone who actually cracks a reference book in this thread. I don't have the book and don't want to buy it just to satisfy my curiosity. @dcarr does it mention anything about a production of 22 pieces, as the eBay seller claims? Is there a confirming photo? Any other info? This certainly is not what I would call a "countermark" but I wonder if that is where PCGS got the (possibly mistaken) "ca 1950" bit from.

    Kind regards,

    George

    The 6th edition shows a picture. It is the first item listed in the Texas Republic subsection. There is no mintage figure noted in the 6th edition. Of course, it is not a "countermarked" coin as are the rest of the items that follow it in that subsection.
    The pictures are not very clear although the countermarks on the coins shown to appear to be a more recent vintage than the coins themselves. Circa 1950 seems reasonable for the countermarks. And judging by the engraving style of the Alamo Dollar, circa 1950 seems reasonable for that one as well.

  • epcjimi1epcjimi1 Posts: 3,489 ✭✭✭

    Enough looking / opinion. Break out the metallurgy analysis, 1950 or not?

  • dadamsdadams Posts: 376 ✭✭✭

    The 1817 & 1818 New Spain (Texas) Jola Tokens are the only "coins" I am aware of struck specifically for TX and I don't think I have ever seen a true "Republic of Texas" coin.

    CoinWeek Article

    image
  • StaircoinsStaircoins Posts: 2,565 ✭✭✭

    Nice piece. Typical of those issued in 1936 for the Texas Centennial. Frankly I'd place it then and am highly suspicious of the 1950 date absent a reliable source stating the same.

  • ZoinsZoins Posts: 33,811 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited November 27, 2016 5:45PM

    It would be good to have some reliable information on this. So far there seems to be no information to back up the 1950 date or the mintage of 22. It would be good to ask PCGS and the seller if they have any source information on the data presented.

    Here's a photo of another specimen I found online:

  • ZoinsZoins Posts: 33,811 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited April 8, 2017 12:41PM

    Looks like this coin is no longer in the PCGS database, but the auction is still up.

    Anyone know why PCGS may have removed this coin? Perhaps they tried to upgrade this from PCGS MS64 to PCGS MS67-68 per the auction description?

    Here's the auction description for posterity:

  • SDSportsFanSDSportsFan Posts: 5,086 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I found this writeup at socalleddollar.com (stating the coin was minted in 1936):

    "173X) Frontal view of the Alamo. Republic Of Texas One Dollar around above and below. 1836 below edifice //REV: Five point star. Thermopylae Had Her Messenger Of Defeat The Alamo Had None around /// Evidently minted circa 1950. I found two sales for this piece. Both were from Christensen and Stone sales: April 2, 1967 lot #805, and April 30, 1975 lot#46. The April 1967 lot #805 was described as: "1936 Republic/Texas One Dollar" Alamo ctr. Rx "Lone" Star "Thermopylae" had Messenger/Defeat…Alamo had none" Silver 42mm RARE (85.00)". I found no examples in any other sales including all Presidential Coin and Antique Co. sales or Charles Kirtley sales. An example was put up for sale on eBay recently(December 2016). The description stated only 22 minted. Very Rare. Silver, 42mm."

    Steve

  • ZoinsZoins Posts: 33,811 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited September 9, 2018 2:43PM

    @SDSportsFan said:
    I found this writeup at socalleddollar.com (stating the coin was minted in 1936):

    "173X) Frontal view of the Alamo. Republic Of Texas One Dollar around above and below. 1836 below edifice //REV: Five point star. Thermopylae Had Her Messenger Of Defeat The Alamo Had None around /// Evidently minted circa 1950. I found two sales for this piece. Both were from Christensen and Stone sales: April 2, 1967 lot #805, and April 30, 1975 lot#46. The April 1967 lot #805 was described as: "1936 Republic/Texas One Dollar" Alamo ctr. Rx "Lone" Star "Thermopylae" had Messenger/Defeat…Alamo had none" Silver 42mm RARE (85.00)". I found no examples in any other sales including all Presidential Coin and Antique Co. sales or Charles Kirtley sales. An example was put up for sale on eBay recently(December 2016). The description stated only 22 minted. Very Rare. Silver, 42mm."

    Steve

    @SDSportsFan, nice to see the reference from John Raymond. This references the same sale that was cited above.

    Here's the page http://www.socalleddollar.com/searchfinder.html

  • ZoinsZoins Posts: 33,811 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited September 9, 2018 2:43PM

    PCGS has certified a copper specimen now as well.

    PCGS 34974031

  • RogerBRogerB Posts: 8,852 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Certified as what -- a cheap tourist token made to soak the ignorant ?

  • ZoinsZoins Posts: 33,811 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited September 9, 2018 5:41PM

    @RogerB said:
    Certified as what -- a cheap tourist token made to soak the ignorant ?

    You'd have to ask our hosts, PCGS.

    This has been classified as a So-Called Dollar by John Raymond and it's worth noting that many So-Called Dollars were cheap tourist tokens, but usually for remembrance. It's hard to "soak" someone with a "cheap" item.

    And of course, coins were originally worth only face value so what does it mean they are certified?

  • ZoinsZoins Posts: 33,811 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited September 9, 2018 4:38PM

    @giorgio11 said:
    Ah. Now I see @zoins perhaps where you ran across it. The eBay Seller claims only 22 were made and that it is listed in KP's "Unusual Coins of the World, 4th edition." Anybody have that book? I do note that this appears to be the only one certified at PCGS in any grade. I looked through my SCD book, I could find nothing there that resembles it.

    http://www.ebay.com/itm/VERY-RARE-ALAMO-COMMEMORATIVE-DOLLAR-TEXAS-1-OF-ONLY-22-MINTED-TONED-PCGS-MS64-/112119311816?hash=item1a1ad4edc8:g:7jsAAOSwMgdXydO3

    Kind regards,

    George

    That is indeed where I ran across this. Of note, the silver specimen here was sold 11 months after this thread for $2,125.00 on Oct-19-17 22:03:01 PDT.

    https://offer.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewBidsLogin&item=112119311816

  • I recently purchased the X-25 Copper PCGS MS-64 RB (669862.64/34974031) on Ebay from the same seller as listed above for the Silver Variation. Same information, 22 Known but only 1 graded. PCGS apparently has 1 Silver and 1 Copper on record, the copper I purchased will be sent to NGC with pedigree 'Winslet Collection' on the label. I will be including this in my coin project called "For America's 250th Anniversary". The Museum of the American Revolution in Philadelphia, PA will be getting this piece to be put on display with 200+ other coins. I sure would like to acquire the Silver piece for the project. If you Google my project name, you will find more information on my project on GoFundMe.

    Best Regards,

    Kristen Winslet
    https://www.linkedin.com/in/kristenwinslet

  • ZoinsZoins Posts: 33,811 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited September 30, 2018 12:44PM

    Thanks for the post Kristen. It would be great to see your collection. Do you have any photos of your other pieces?

    Why do you prefer NGC? One reason I like PCGS is for the TrueViews which are a great way to show off a collection.

    Here are some links for others:

  • ZoinsZoins Posts: 33,811 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited August 1, 2020 9:11AM

    @giorgio11 said:
    I found some more info here

    http://www.jezuss.nl/er/erik-linksT.htmjezuss.nl/er/erik-linksT.htm

    which includes this bit:

    "From Mr. Larry Johnson, I was fortunate to also purchase the hard-to-find 1836 silver “One Dollar” piece. The obverse shows a front-view of the Alamo. The reverse features a large Lone Star, along with the words “THERMOPYLÆ HAD HER MESSENGER OF DEFEAT THE ALAMO HAD NONE” (the comparison between the events at the Battle of the Alamo [February 23 - March 6, 1836] to the Battle of Thermopylae [480 B.C.] occurred shortly after the Texian defeat; the quotation implies that no one survived the Alamo battle to tell the Texans' story, but some people did indeed survive [all but two were non-combatants]; the phrase “Thermopylae had her messenger of defeat — the Alamo had none” was coined by General Edward Burleson, who served as Vice President of the Republic of Texas in President Sam Houston's second term from 1841-1844; it is said to have been spoken in a famous 1842 speech — ghost-written by Thomas Jefferson Green — before the Alamo; it was soon afterward included with three other quotations on the first Alamo monument in Austin, TX). Included with the coin was “the old 2x2 Kraft envelope [from the 1950's] with the name of Bill Ross [the collector died in 1961]. This medal came out of the large Ostheimer Collection of So Called Dollars and medals — it's a real gem.”

    Kind regards,

    George

    Great comment from Erik Victor McCrea.

    It would be great to have some photos of the Ross-Ostheimer-Johnson-McCrea specimen.

  • ZoinsZoins Posts: 33,811 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited August 1, 2020 9:09AM

    This one is now available with a reserve of $1,600. The cert number is just one number after the copper specimen so it looks like the same submitter.

  • coinsarefuncoinsarefun Posts: 21,663 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @Zoins said:
    This one is now available with a reserve of $1,600. The cert number is just one number after the copper specimen so it looks like the same submitter.

    >
    I was trying to bid on that one but instead I won a horse from Mobile Alabama B)

  • PerryHallPerryHall Posts: 45,296 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I read somewhere that the Republic of Texas is the only country that issued paper money and yet never issued any coinage. Neat piece of trivia. B)

    Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.

  • Namvet69Namvet69 Posts: 8,620 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Me I'm thinking 1936 as the way to mark 100 years since. IMO. Peace Roy

    BST: endeavor1967, synchr, kliao, Outhaul, Donttellthewife, U1Chicago, ajaan, mCarney1173, SurfinHi, MWallace, Sandman70gt, mustanggt, Pittstate03, Lazybones, Walkerguy21D, coinandcurrency242 , thebigeng, Collectorcoins, JimTyler, USMarine6, Elkevvo, Coll3ctor, Yorkshireman, CUKevin, ranshdow, CoinHunter4, bennybravo, Centsearcher, braddick, Windycity, ZoidMeister, mirabela, JJM, RichURich, Bullsitter, jmski52

  • DCWDCW Posts: 6,934 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @coinsarefun said:

    @Zoins said:
    This one is now available with a reserve of $1,600. The cert number is just one number after the copper specimen so it looks like the same submitter.

    >
    I was trying to bid on that one but instead I won a horse from Mobile Alabama B)

    The 'ol Jockey Club

    Dead Cat Waltz Exonumia
    "Coin collecting for outcasts..."

  • coinsarefuncoinsarefun Posts: 21,663 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @DCW said:

    @coinsarefun said:

    @Zoins said:
    This one is now available with a reserve of $1,600. The cert number is just one number after the copper specimen so it looks like the same submitter.

    >
    I was trying to bid on that one but instead I won a horse from Mobile Alabama B)

    The 'ol Jockey Club

    .
    .
    Yep, did you see it? It’s the copper MS64RB. Haven’t seen one come along in copper for
    a good long time.. can’t wait to get it and post. But, I sure wanted the Republic of Texas silver.

  • tokenprotokenpro Posts: 846 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Based on my experience I find the mintage of 22 silver pieces is extremely doubtful to say the least. Note that there is no mintage given in the (latest) 6th edition of Unusual World Coins. The 1950 estimate seems more accurate than 1936 although I would not be surprised if it was ten years later circa 1961.

  • ZoinsZoins Posts: 33,811 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited August 15, 2020 5:38PM

    Seems like there's no reliable information on these. I wonder if any information will ever show up, and even when one first appeared.

    Here's a silver in lesser condition that sold on eBay today. The close up is interesting. It looks like the letters may be hand carved. And some letters are wider close to the edge than the center.

    I believe the first silver was offered for $2,400 but I didn't see it sell.

    The second silver missed its $1600 reserve recently and was offered in Stack's second chance for $2,000.

  • CaptHenwayCaptHenway Posts: 31,499 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Has anybody ever tried comparing this particular rendering of the Alamo to known images of the Alamo to see if there are any peculiar design details common to both? That might help date the piece.

    My gut feeling is still "modern" as in the middle third of the 20th Century, but I cannot prove anything.

    Numismatist. 50 year member ANA. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner numerous NLG Literary Awards.
  • ZoinsZoins Posts: 33,811 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited November 19, 2020 10:52PM

    @Zoins said:
    This one is now available with a reserve of $1,600. The cert number is just one number after the copper specimen so it looks like the same submitter.

    This just sold for $2400 on Stack's with a $2K reserve after failing to sell with a $1.6K reserve in August.

    I wanted it, but was hoping to get it for less before the reserve kicked in.

  • RedStormRedStorm Posts: 221 ✭✭✭

    @PerryHall said:
    I read somewhere that the Republic of Texas is the only country that issued paper money and yet never issued any coinage. Neat piece of trivia. B)

    Some more trivia: The brief Republic of Texas made some crude, but interesting looking currency. Because of the poor ink quality, many notes appear orange-colored. Texas lore is that the unusual burnt orange color of the University of Texas Longhorns came from the strange coloring of their currency.

  • MaywoodMaywood Posts: 1,864 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Just looking at the images I have seen of this interesting piece there seem to be 4-5 probable and perhaps as many as six medals extant in silver. It's difficult to tell because it seems as though the owners are already well underway towards screwing up the pop numbers with crossovers and re-submissions. What I find amusing about the whole thread is the effort to date the item, hampered by the fact that there is almost no information listed anywhere. I would think that whenever it was added by Krausse that they based the circa(1950) from some reliable source.

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