IHC Proofs....very undervalued on the price guides
Bochiman
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Of course, when they are toned nicely, they are even more underpriced....
This one is $285 in the PCGS Price Guide. I don't think that is realistic if one is looking to buy, do you?
I love toned IHCS in proof, but I can never find nice ones near the price guides (not PCGS, not Greysheet, etc)
I've been told I tolerate fools poorly...that may explain things if I have a problem with you. Current ebay items - Nothing at the moment
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You are indeed correct, Bochiman. The nicely toned Indian cent proofs go for much more money than shown in any price guides, and the super toners go for much, much more. That's because there are several people working on sets of beautifully toned proof Indian cents. In other words, supply and demand.
I am working on such a set, and it is a big challenge finding the right coins for it. Here's one of the coins:
images.pcgs.com/TrueView/25374671_large.jpg
An authorized PCGS dealer, and a contributor to the Red Book.
So am I, and a few others I know, Rich. Fully agree.
I am trapped by my empty wallet and my cheapness though. I see some nice ones in 66 and 67 but I can't pull the triggers at those prices. Heck, even some of the 64 and 65 are way beyond what I could see myself paying (10x+ of any price guide). I guess maybe some people pay that, but, I just can't.
I do LOVE the way a lot of the BN tone up though. Gorgeous!
I've been told I tolerate fools poorly...that may explain things if I have a problem with you. Current ebay items - Nothing at the moment
Sorry but I can't fully agree.
Great for the grade with great eye appeal, yes I totally agree.
Poor eye appeal and or spotted then the guides are just fine.
You guys are just ignoring the ones you don't love
I think even "normal" for the strike/eye appeal (without excessive ugly spotting nor great toning) the guides are still off.
Just my opinion.
And, yes, guilty. I do ignore the ones I don't love
I've been told I tolerate fools poorly...that may explain things if I have a problem with you. Current ebay items - Nothing at the moment
I agree that the prices are high for these., and probably still have a ways to go.
I kind of miss the good old days when $100 or less would buy a nicely toned BN/RB.
It really wasn't that long ago.
I also fondly remember when nobody wanted Matte Proof Lincolns.
I was at a show in the late 90s and remember buying three ANACS Matte Proofs, 62-3 BN/RB for less than $150.
They weren't dogs either.
The PCGS price guide is not reflective of the real value of nicely toned IHC proofs. Certain dates are rare with nice toning. My set of IHC proofs is complete and about 90% are nicely toned. But, still need some upgrades and they are not easy to find. I acquired about 80% of my collection through knowledgable dealers and 20% through auctions. I rarely find nicely toned specimens in an auction, but there have been a few opportunities.
I purchased this 1885 PR67BN a few years ago and if I recall correctly I paid about 2x PCGS price guide. IMHO should be 67+ or 68.
Good luck and happy hunting.......
OINK
I agree.
I was just thinking about this recently.
I went to CoinFacts and noticed that I have the highest auction price paid for a certain date in PR64 BN.
Doesn't bother me in the slightest.
Btw @Bochiman your 1879 is spectacular.
"If I say something in the woods and my wife isn't there to hear it.....am I still wrong?"
My Washington Quarter Registry set...in progress
I became fascinated with Indian Cent Proofs in the late 1990s, collecting them as a sidelight to my chasing Early Copper. Back then, you could buy a helluva coin for 2-300 dollars. I had a dealer source from New England who brought 5 to 10 beautiful raw Proofs to the larger shows like Baltimore and I bought every one of them. Average cost was 200 to 400 dollars. Many had beautiful iridescent toning and several subsequently graded 67 BN at PCGS. You can't buy those for 200 to 400 dollars anymore!
Check out some of my 1794 Large Cents on www.coingallery.org
I agree that nice toned IHC proofs are worth a good bit more than guide but are the dealers willing to pay up for them when you sell? My experience is they do not, at least no where near the levels they want to sell them at.
OINK, that 1885 is spectacular!
An authorized PCGS dealer, and a contributor to the Red Book.
I think it important in any buying decision that you have an agreement with whhat the dealer will but the coin back. When buying a coin with a toning preium I usually get an agreement the buyback will be 75-80% of the sell price.
I would just like to find R/RB... or even B proof IHC's at a reasonable price....not being a tarnish fan, I just like the look of a proof IHC.... Cheers, RickO
Oh, come on... everybody knows BROWN copper is undesirable and is not even worth greysheet... just ask any weekend dealer at your local small-town show! Kidding, of course. I'd rather have a pretty toned BN or RB proof that is awash in a riot of colors than a full red Indian cent proof any day. With red copper, you've got to hope it stays red over the years, and doesn't develop any spots. You've got no way of telling what it's going to do in storage. I think these are some of the riskiest numismatic items to buy, and I just avoid them. Copper purists will disagree with me, and that's OK, it's just my opinion. BN designated coins with fully original, gem toning present less of a risk to own, they can be more beautiful than a full red example (though not always), and they can be worth more than a full example due to their unique character (though the market doesn't always think so).
Here's another viewpoint. Take that pretty toned PR66 BN Indian cent, and turn it into a proof Seated or Barber coin of the same date with the same pretty colors. Will you be paying a premium for the color, or is it sold to you at a discount because it isn't BLAST WHITE? Of course you're paying more for the pretty color, and maybe quite a bit more if it's graded higher than PR66. Why should untoned Indians cost more than beautifully toned coins in the same grade?
I think we need a new color designation or two for pretty toned proof copper. BN, RB, and RD are outdated designations that do not cover all the possibilities. Why not introduce CC (choice color) and GC (Gem color) designations for proof copper? These special designations could be similar to PL and DMPL designations for dollars. They indicate the coin is something special that is worth more than an ordinary example of the date. C'mon PCGS, think about it!
Picked this up on eBay raw for $200... it graded PR65 BN at PCGS.
This one came from Mike Printz at HJB for around $500. It's also PR65 BN.
About ten years back I looked at proof Indians with nice toning very undervalued for their pops. I put together what I considered to be a very nice set. I was eight coins shot of completion when someone who saw my set on the registry reached out to me and offered me a huge profit. It was one I could not refuse , so I sold for about a forty percent profit. This dealer them teamed up with Larry Sheppard and resubmitted them all to PCGS under the Sheppard pedigree. I know see many of my old toners in higher graded holders for crazy prices $3200-$3700. Win win
Rainbow Stars
"Why not introduce CC (choice color) and GC (Gem color) designations for proof copper?"
This will surely promote AT Indians....the coin doctors would love it...... Cheers, RickO
CDC.
Choice Doctored Color.
I can see it now roadrunner.... an entire panoply of technicolor designations and then we will see TPCG's (Third Party Color Grading) emerge and CCC (Color Concurrence Company) to certify the certifications.
Cheers, RickO
Love the "CDC" sticker idea - "this coin has been approved by the Center for Disease Control."
Here's a thought. If coin doctors would mess with the color of a copper proof in order to get a hypothetical CC or GC sticker, then shouldn't they already be doing it in order to get thousands of dollars of profit on otherwise brown or red-brown cents?
That 1885 is SWEET!
love the 1885