When do you think this Potosi 8 reales was minted?

jgenn

lordmarcovan

1808?

Haha. I fail at trick questions. I know.

Before the full obverse pic loaded on my glacially slow satellite connection, I saw Ferdie 7 and for some reason, my mind said, "it's gonna be 1817".

I have no idea why. I am about as far from a specialist on this late Spanish colonial coinage as one can get.

asheland

I'm going with 1808.

jgenn

Thanks for playing along with the "trick" question. The answer lies in the tumultuous history of the period. Since I'm not a scholar -- just an enthusiastic collector -- I'll present the key details from the research of others. From a recent Heritage Auction catalog description:

This apparently anachronistic issue was due to the Royal Ordinance of April 10, 1808 which was sent to the mints of the Americas before Ferdinand VII surrendered his throne to Napoleon on May 9, 1811 and reads as follows: "regarding the fact that the coinage ought to be minted with my royal name and no other alteration, I have instructed that until the (new) master dies are received the coins shall be minted as until now with the bust and name of my august father and without variation of the date and that later some coins shall be minted from the new master die and my bust and name and the date of 1808 proving that I have reigned in it (in that year)". Naturally, this royal ordinance was originally intended to be only provisional and effective for 1808 since the new master dies were expected to be sent and received in that year. However, Napoleon's invasion of Spain meant that the new master dies would not be sent until 1811. In the interval 1808-1811, the various mints gave different interpretations to the aforementioned ordinance: some (as Guatemala , Potosi, Nuevo Reino and Popayan) kept minting with the previous bust of Charles IV while others (Mexico, Lima, Santiago) engraved local renditions of Ferdinand VII, thus creating the so call "imaginary bust" issues.

The previous text was describing an 1808 8 Reales of Fernando VII minted in Guatemala, but I believe the main details apply to the issues of the Potosí mint and that my 1808 example was most likely minted in 1811 after the "proper bust" master die was received. The revolutionary forces of the Provincias del Rio de la Plata took control of much of Upper Peru, including Potosí in 1810 but were forced out of the region after losing the Battle of Huaqui in June of 1811 so the mint had the opportunity to issue these coins after the royalists returned to power. "Proper bust" issues are also known for 1809 and 1810, but none are thought to have been issued for 1811 and 1812. The next confirmed issues from Potosí are for the Provincias del Rio de la Plata in 1813 after the mint once again fell under control of the revolutionaries but reverted to the Fernando bust later that year after royalists reasserted control.

lordmarcovan

1811, then?

I've been listening to Mike Duncan's "Revolutions" podcast, which recently started a cycle about Bolivar and the wars of indepence in the Spanish colonies. Interesting stuff. I put it down a little while back. Need to pick it up again before long.

coffeyce

nice bit of history. I actually collect Spanish royal documents. the 1808 Ferd 7th are very hard to find. would be nice to find one coin related as 80% of my 250 docs deal with the church with the occasional death marriage or birth. and run from 1743-1898

jgenn

would be nice to find one coin related

I agree -- a coin related Spanish royal document would be really interesting to see, let alone collect.

TwoKopeiki

That's an interesting theory, Jack. It would have to apply to both 1808 and 1809 Ferdinand VII Potosi issues and would probably explain the rarity of the actual 1811 date. I wonder if there are official Potosi mint records from that time period.

asheland

Interesting stuff!

jgenn

I wonder if there are official Potosi mint records from that time period.

I imagine that the mint records were evacuated, lost, destroyed and/or captured due to the multiple changes in control that happened between 1810 and 1815. It sure would be interesting to see a copy of that Royal Ordinance.

RobClear

I'm going with 1808, but it is interesting stuff, indeed

coffeyce

I have documents that discuss the chaos when France took Madrid and many records were lost and many things had to be rewrote. all surviving records were attempted to be collected in Cadiz, the final stronghold where the Junta Supreme/Cadiz Cortez and others were issuing orders from while receiving help from the British. They complained records were burned but documents I have also disclosed Spain ordered Joseph Napoleons Law books burned upon his retreat from Spain. But if an order was issued there would have been an original for the mints, each colony Captain Generals (governors) and one for the Archives. The Spanish were very detailed about documentation.

jgenn

Calbeto includes this note in his 8 reales compendium. Can anyone provide a better translation than Google?

1811 - Abril 7. Con oficio de esta fecha se remiten a las Casas de la Moneda de Popayan, Potosi, Lima y Santiago, los cuños para las moneda reales de a 8 y de a 2.

jgenn

Bump. Requesting translation of quote in previous post.

Boosibri

@jgenn said:
Bump. Requesting translation of quote in previous post.

1811 - April 7. With effect from this date, the dies for the 8 and the 2 reales are sent to the mints of Popayan, Potosi, Lima and Santiago.

jgenn

Thanks, Boosibri!

TwoKopeiki

Yup, it's a really good hypothesis that the king punches or dies were sent back to the colonial mints in 1811, resulting in some mints striking earlier dates with the new, proper portrait. Nice research, Jack!