Hey Daniel Carr; Don't think you're going to like this...

Outhaul

Using your name to sell a knock-off?

ebay.com/itm/1964P-Fantasy-Morgan-Dollar-similar-to-Daniel-Carr-/252612215260?hash=item3ad0dc81dc:g:I7YAAOSwx2dYD5~I

TopographicOceans

You can report it as
Listing Practices -> Search and browse manipulation -> Misusing a brand name

1940coupe

its been listed before I sent seller message comparing that to Daniel Carr is like comparing VW to Lincoln Continental

roadrunner

It's almost cartoon-like.

cameonut2011

I find it ironic that you label it a "knock-off." Is it even possible to make a "knock-off" of a "knock-off?" At least the producer of this piece complied with the marking requirements of the Hobby Protection Act.

I also don't see a problem. Carr has no intellectual property rights with respect to the design, and I don't think mentioning him infringes on any intellectual property rights either. It is like buying a generic brand product that includes the language "compare to the ingredients of product xyz."

SamByrd

My question is what exactly is wrong with the listing?

both are fantasy tokens and it is similar in the abject sense but similar none the less.

I am not a buyer but I don't see the issue here , maybe that's just me.

derryb

Key word spamming violation.

Report as Listing Practices > Search and browse manipulation > Keyword spamming.

Seller has three "similar to D. Carr" listings.

LanceNewmanOCC

@SamByrd said:
My question is what exactly is wrong with the listing?

both are fantasy tokens and it is similar in the abject sense but similar none the less.

I am not a buyer but I don't see the issue here , maybe that's just me.

it has been against policy to even list copies that comply with the hpa for some time now.
.

DNADave

@1940coupe said:
its been listed before I sent seller message comparing that to Daniel Carr is like comparing VW to Lincoln Continental

or like comparing a Chinese counterfeit to an American counterfeit.

Leroy

1964P Fantasy Morgan Dollar, similar to Daniel Carr

Similar being the key word -

Desert Moon

It is perfectly legal, unlike some I have seen, this one put the word 'COPY' on the reverse and therefore is compliant with the HPA........

Beset, SH

coindeuce

I predict that a better capitalized enterprise will soon start producing the same thing as Carr, only in much higher quantity, and the market will be flooded with cheap widgets. Means, motive, opportunity - they are all there.

CaptHenway

No intent to defraud, so not a counterfeit!

brg5658

It's clearly marked "COPY" so it can't be a Daniel Carr knock off. It's completely different...

dcarr

@coindeuce said:
I predict that a better capitalized enterprise will soon start producing the same thing as Carr, only in much higher quantity, and the market will be flooded with cheap widgets. Means, motive, opportunity - they are all there.

"Flooding the marked with cheap widgets"
That sounds like a self-defeating business plan.
Making larger quantities of something reduces the price that the thing can be sold for, thus eliminating the motive to make the larger quantities.

dcarr

@cameonut2011 said:
I find it ironic that you label it a "knock-off." Is it even possible to make a "knock-off" of a "knock-off?" At least the producer of this piece complied with the marking requirements of the Hobby Protection Act.

I also don't see a problem. Carr has no intellectual property rights with respect to the design, and I don't think mentioning him infringes on any intellectual property rights either. It is like buying a generic brand product that includes the language "compare to the ingredients of product xyz."

It is correct that I have no "Intellectual Property Rights" concerning the public domain Morgan Dollar design or the Gasparro "flowing hair" small dollar design.

But I do have exclusive rights to the "Daniel Carr" brand name.

The seller had listings for "fantasy" Gasparro small dollars and advertised them as "similar to Daniel Carr". That was definitely a violation of eBay policies. It is not my design. It is not similar to any of my designs. And not only that, I hate that particular Gasparro design and would never want my name associated with it.

And while we are at it, let's examine what harm, if any, is actually being done to numismatics by my products compared to the products of that other seller, Royal Oak Mint (ROM).

I think we can all agree that one way to turn off a novice collector is to "bury" them in a coin that they can't sell for nearly what they paid for it.

Carr "1964-D" Peace Dollar over-strike:
Issue price: $85 to $165, depending on version.
Produced for a limited time and a limited published quantity (I could have sold a lot more of them).
Current eBay sale prices: typically $500+

Royal Oak Mint "1964-D" Peace Dollar:
Issue price: $65.
Produced in unknown quantities, and seemingly open-ended production lasting many years and still available from ROM today.
Current eBay sale prices: few records to go on, but there were recently two that ended with no bids at the starting level of $50. A true auction for them would have likely ended at $20 or less each.

Even worse are some of the "reproduction" pieces offered on TV. A buyer of one of those is likely to recoup only a tiny fraction of their initial purchase.

The Carr over-strikes have actually been a small boon to numismatics and novice collectors who have purchased them have generally benefited financially, thus increasing their knowledge in, and attachment to, numismatics.

ricko

Well stated dan.... Cheers, RickO

PerryHall

Are these knockoffs of Dan Carr's coins struck over real Morgan dollars like Dan's coins are?

brg5658

@dcarr said:
But I do have exclusive rights to the "Daniel Carr" brand name.

I didn't realize "Daniel Carr" was a brand name -- did you file this branding in all of the USA, or just Colorado?

I wonder how the (more famous than you) NHL player Daniel Carr feels about this "branding"...

Justacommeman

I think folks under estimate Dan Carr's following. Maybe they just want to.

mark

silverpop

no comment

oih82w8

@brg5658 said:

@dcarr said:
But I do have exclusive rights to the "Daniel Carr" brand name.

I didn't realize "Daniel Carr" was a brand name -- did you file this branding in all of the USA, or just Colorado?

I wonder how the (more famous than you) NHL player Daniel Carr feels about this "branding"...

Never heard of NHL Daniel Carr. (shrug)
There are many people who follow Daniel Carr's Moonlight Mint products...and you can count me among them.

derryb

ebay selller has removed all reference to D. Carr from his listings

is seller reading this forum?

brg5658

@oih82w8 said:

@brg5658 said:

@dcarr said:
But I do have exclusive rights to the "Daniel Carr" brand name.

I didn't realize "Daniel Carr" was a brand name -- did you file this branding in all of the USA, or just Colorado?

I wonder how the (more famous than you) NHL player Daniel Carr feels about this "branding"...

Never heard of NHL Daniel Carr. (shrug)
There are many people who follow Daniel Carr's Moonlight Mint products...and you can count me among them.

Your sampling frame is a little biased when you're frame of reference is coin collectors on the PCGS forums. I also have some DCarr products. I promise you NONE of my non coin collecting friends or family would know his name.

lkeigwin

I would think that mentioning Dan's name would hurt the seller more than help. Because anyone unfamiliar with Daniel Carr's work who then takes a look at it would never consider the seller's fantasy coin. And those already familiar with Dan's coins just laugh and move on.
Lance.

CascadeChris

@coindeuce said:
I predict that a better capitalized enterprise will soon start producing the same thing as Carr, only in much higher quantity, and the market will be flooded with cheap widgets. Means, motive, opportunity - they are all there.

One can only hope. In that scenario, true Carr pieces would likely skyrocket. The only downside I see is every moonlight mint offering starting to selling out in minutes/hours

SamByrd

@lkeigwin said:
I would think that mentioning Dan's name would hurt the seller more than help. Because anyone unfamiliar with Daniel Carr's work who then takes a look at it would never consider the seller's fantasy coin. And those already familiar with Dan's coins just laugh and move on.
Lance.

well stated. I view the Carr pieces as fine art and as tokens they really are the top tier of that art form in every respect. Though I don't have an issue with the ebay item it is not in the same league as far as quality and will be simply a mass market widget someone might add to there set much closer to bullion then to art in my view.

3keepSECRETif2rDEAD

@oih82w8 said:

@brg5658 said:

@dcarr said:
But I do have exclusive rights to the "Daniel Carr" brand name.

I didn't realize "Daniel Carr" was a brand name -- did you file this branding in all of the USA, or just Colorado?

I wonder how the (more famous than you) NHL player Daniel Carr feels about this "branding"...

Never heard of NHL Daniel Carr. (shrug)
There are many people who follow Daniel Carr's Moonlight Mint products...and you can count me among them.

...seriously though...I ran a sportsbook for a decade and I don't even know what the NHL is...so nice try bro

3keepSECRETif2rDEAD

LOL

cameonut2011

@derryb said:
ebay selller has removed all reference to D. Carr from his listings

is seller reading this forum?

It is truly a shame. The piece did not infringe on Carr's intellectual property rights and is in no more violation than any of Carr's pieces which eBay rarely, if ever, removes when reported. Ditto for the NORFED pieces.

Per EBay:
Most countries strictly prohibit the sale of counterfeit currency and stamps as well as equipment designed to make them. These types of items can't be listed on eBay.
Replica coins aren't allowed. All other stamps, coins, and paper money must be accurately described.
Replica, plated, or clad bullion isn't allowed.

Justacommeman

@3keepSECRETif2rDEAD said:

@oih82w8 said:

@brg5658 said:

@dcarr said:
But I do have exclusive rights to the "Daniel Carr" brand name.

I didn't realize "Daniel Carr" was a brand name -- did you file this branding in all of the USA, or just Colorado?

I wonder how the (more famous than you) NHL player Daniel Carr feels about this "branding"...

Never heard of NHL Daniel Carr. (shrug)
There are many people who follow Daniel Carr's Moonlight Mint products...and you can count me among them.

...seriously though...I ran a sportsbook for a decade and I don't even know what the NHL is...so nice try bro

He actually is a 25 year old prospect who hasn't cracked the NHL. I believe he is in the AHL. Anyways I bet there are less then 10 people on this planet who know who both are.

mark

CaptHenway

I have one very distant cousin in the NHL, using the original Canadian spelling of the family name:
http://www.rotoworld.com/player/nhl/3649/nicolas-deslauriers

Justacommeman

@CaptHenway said:
I have one very distant cousin in the NHL, using the original Canadian spelling of the family name:
http://www.rotoworld.com/player/nhl/3649/nicolas-deslauriers

Small world. Me too. Same exact name as mine. Mark was a first round pick a few years ago and is now playing in the AHL. That's how I know Daniel Carr the hockey player

M

TommyType

@Justacommeman said:
I think folks under estimate Dan Carr's following. Maybe they just want to.

mark

It may be more accurate to state that some of us folks just don't UNDERSTAND the following.

Chinese knockoffs are hated, and are mocked when they get the dates wrong. That, I understand....

coindeuce

@dcarr said:

@coindeuce said:
I predict that a better capitalized enterprise will soon start producing the same thing as Carr, only in much higher quantity, and the market will be flooded with cheap widgets. Means, motive, opportunity - they are all there.

"Flooding the marked with cheap widgets"
That sounds like a self-defeating business plan.
Making larger quantities of something reduces the price that the thing can be sold for, thus eliminating the motive to make the larger quantities.

I don't believe it would take too much effort to market a very similar product at a much more favorable price. Which in the real world could be extremely competitive with your product. I really don't care much how it unfolds. I would not be a customer of any maker of these. They simply don't interest me in a numismatic sense, which is the fundamental reason for my consideration of them as widgets. Just an observation, not intended as criticism.

brg5658

@Justacommeman said:

@3keepSECRETif2rDEAD said:

@oih82w8 said:

@brg5658 said:

@dcarr said:
But I do have exclusive rights to the "Daniel Carr" brand name.

I didn't realize "Daniel Carr" was a brand name -- did you file this branding in all of the USA, or just Colorado?

I wonder how the (more famous than you) NHL player Daniel Carr feels about this "branding"...

Never heard of NHL Daniel Carr. (shrug)
There are many people who follow Daniel Carr's Moonlight Mint products...and you can count me among them.

...seriously though...I ran a sportsbook for a decade and I don't even know what the NHL is...so nice try bro

He actually is a 25 year old prospect who hasn't cracked the NHL. I believe he is in the AHL. Anyways I bet there are less then 10 people on this planet who know who both are.

mark

He is in the NHL: he plays for the Montreal Canadiens.

derryb

@cameonut2011 said:

@derryb said:
ebay selller has removed all reference to D. Carr from his listings

is seller reading this forum?

It is truly a shame. The piece did not infringe on Carr's intellectual property rights and is in no more violation than any of Carr's pieces which eBay rarely, if ever, removes when reported. Ditto for the NORFED pieces.

Per EBay:
Most countries strictly prohibit the sale of counterfeit currency and stamps as well as equipment designed to make them. These types of items can't be listed on eBay.
Replica coins aren't allowed. All other stamps, coins, and paper money must be accurately described.
Replica, plated, or clad bullion isn't allowed.

But it was a keyword spamming violation. No different than me putting "similar to silver eagle" in my silver maple listing title. Old trick to end up in more search results.

Per Ebay:
Keyword spamming is when people use words or details (such as brands, item condition, model names, pop culture terms, product names, style, and type) that have nothing to do with their items so that their listings will show up in search results. Since this clutters eBay and makes buying and selling more difficult, we don't allow keyword spamming

cameonut2011

@derryb said:

@cameonut2011 said:

@derryb said:
ebay selller has removed all reference to D. Carr from his listings

is seller reading this forum?

It is truly a shame. The piece did not infringe on Carr's intellectual property rights and is in no more violation than any of Carr's pieces which eBay rarely, if ever, removes when reported. Ditto for the NORFED pieces.

Per EBay:
Most countries strictly prohibit the sale of counterfeit currency and stamps as well as equipment designed to make them. These types of items can't be listed on eBay.
Replica coins aren't allowed. All other stamps, coins, and paper money must be accurately described.
Replica, plated, or clad bullion isn't allowed.

But it was a keyword spamming violation.

Per Ebay:
Keyword spamming is when people use words or details (such as brands, item condition, model names, pop culture terms, product names, style, and type) that have nothing to do with their items so that their listings will show up in search results. Since this clutters eBay and makes buying and selling more difficult, we don't allow keyword spamming

Don't you think it is a bit hypocritical for members here to advocate reporting the listing as a violation of EBay policy and not also report DCarr listings which also violate EBay policy?

Justacommeman

@brg5658 said:

@Justacommeman said:

@3keepSECRETif2rDEAD said:

@oih82w8 said:

@brg5658 said:

@dcarr said:
But I do have exclusive rights to the "Daniel Carr" brand name.

I didn't realize "Daniel Carr" was a brand name -- did you file this branding in all of the USA, or just Colorado?

I wonder how the (more famous than you) NHL player Daniel Carr feels about this "branding"...

Never heard of NHL Daniel Carr. (shrug)
There are many people who follow Daniel Carr's Moonlight Mint products...and you can count me among them.

...seriously though...I ran a sportsbook for a decade and I don't even know what the NHL is...so nice try bro

He actually is a 25 year old prospect who hasn't cracked the NHL. I believe he is in the AHL. Anyways I bet there are less then 10 people on this planet who know who both are.

mark

He is in the NHL: he plays for the Montreal Canadiens.

I follow the sport pretty religiously. Not sure if you do. Yes, he played 20 or so games last year with Montreal. Not this year.

Paulyaces76

@cameonut2011 said:

@derryb said:

@cameonut2011 said:

@derryb said:
ebay selller has removed all reference to D. Carr from his listings

is seller reading this forum?

It is truly a shame. The piece did not infringe on Carr's intellectual property rights and is in no more violation than any of Carr's pieces which eBay rarely, if ever, removes when reported. Ditto for the NORFED pieces.

Per EBay:
Most countries strictly prohibit the sale of counterfeit currency and stamps as well as equipment designed to make them. These types of items can't be listed on eBay.
Replica coins aren't allowed. All other stamps, coins, and paper money must be accurately described.
Replica, plated, or clad bullion isn't allowed.

But it was a keyword spamming violation.

Per Ebay:
Keyword spamming is when people use words or details (such as brands, item condition, model names, pop culture terms, product names, style, and type) that have nothing to do with their items so that their listings will show up in search results. Since this clutters eBay and makes buying and selling more difficult, we don't allow keyword spamming

Don't you think it is a bit hypocritical for members here to advocate reporting the listing as a violation of EBay policy and not also report DCarr listings which also violate EBay policy?

Which policy?

brg5658

@Justacommeman said:

@brg5658 said:

@Justacommeman said:

@3keepSECRETif2rDEAD said:

@oih82w8 said:

@brg5658 said:

@dcarr said:
But I do have exclusive rights to the "Daniel Carr" brand name.

I didn't realize "Daniel Carr" was a brand name -- did you file this branding in all of the USA, or just Colorado?

I wonder how the (more famous than you) NHL player Daniel Carr feels about this "branding"...

Never heard of NHL Daniel Carr. (shrug)
There are many people who follow Daniel Carr's Moonlight Mint products...and you can count me among them.

...seriously though...I ran a sportsbook for a decade and I don't even know what the NHL is...so nice try bro

He actually is a 25 year old prospect who hasn't cracked the NHL. I believe he is in the AHL. Anyways I bet there are less then 10 people on this planet who know who both are.

mark

He is in the NHL: he plays for the Montreal Canadiens.

I follow the sport pretty religiously. Not sure if you do. Yes, he played 20 or so games last year with Montreal. Not this year.

You said he "...hasn't cracked the NHL..." That was false. Period.

cameonut2011

@Paulyaces76 said:

@cameonut2011 said:

@derryb said:

@cameonut2011 said:

@derryb said:
ebay selller has removed all reference to D. Carr from his listings

is seller reading this forum?

It is truly a shame. The piece did not infringe on Carr's intellectual property rights and is in no more violation than any of Carr's pieces which eBay rarely, if ever, removes when reported. Ditto for the NORFED pieces.

Per EBay:
Most countries strictly prohibit the sale of counterfeit currency and stamps as well as equipment designed to make them. These types of items can't be listed on eBay.
Replica coins aren't allowed. All other stamps, coins, and paper money must be accurately described.
Replica, plated, or clad bullion isn't allowed.

But it was a keyword spamming violation.

Per Ebay:
Keyword spamming is when people use words or details (such as brands, item condition, model names, pop culture terms, product names, style, and type) that have nothing to do with their items so that their listings will show up in search results. Since this clutters eBay and makes buying and selling more difficult, we don't allow keyword spamming

Don't you think it is a bit hypocritical for members here to advocate reporting the listing as a violation of EBay policy and not also report DCarr listings which also violate EBay policy?

Which policy?

The one quoted earlier in the chain of replies regarding replica coins and/or counterfeits.

MsMorrisine

now I know which one deals in the pucks

Justacommeman

@brg5658 said:

@Justacommeman said:

@brg5658 said:

@Justacommeman said:

@3keepSECRETif2rDEAD said:

@oih82w8 said:

@brg5658 said:

@dcarr said:
But I do have exclusive rights to the "Daniel Carr" brand name.

I didn't realize "Daniel Carr" was a brand name -- did you file this branding in all of the USA, or just Colorado?

I wonder how the (more famous than you) NHL player Daniel Carr feels about this "branding"...

Never heard of NHL Daniel Carr. (shrug)
There are many people who follow Daniel Carr's Moonlight Mint products...and you can count me among them.

...seriously though...I ran a sportsbook for a decade and I don't even know what the NHL is...so nice try bro

He actually is a 25 year old prospect who hasn't cracked the NHL. I believe he is in the AHL. Anyways I bet there are less then 10 people on this planet who know who both are.

mark

He is in the NHL: he plays for the Montreal Canadiens.

I follow the sport pretty religiously. Not sure if you do. Yes, he played 20 or so games last year with Montreal. Not this year.

You said he "...hasn't cracked the NHL..." That was false. Period.

Correct. I should have said cracked the NHL full time. On a positive note he did score last night in the St John's Ice Caps game against the Utica Comets. Hardly famous but might be some day. I like his game.

mark

brg5658

@Justacommeman said:

@brg5658 said:

@Justacommeman said:

@brg5658 said:

@Justacommeman said:

@3keepSECRETif2rDEAD said:

@oih82w8 said:

@brg5658 said:

@dcarr said:
But I do have exclusive rights to the "Daniel Carr" brand name.

I didn't realize "Daniel Carr" was a brand name -- did you file this branding in all of the USA, or just Colorado?

I wonder how the (more famous than you) NHL player Daniel Carr feels about this "branding"...

Never heard of NHL Daniel Carr. (shrug)
There are many people who follow Daniel Carr's Moonlight Mint products...and you can count me among them.

...seriously though...I ran a sportsbook for a decade and I don't even know what the NHL is...so nice try bro

He actually is a 25 year old prospect who hasn't cracked the NHL. I believe he is in the AHL. Anyways I bet there are less then 10 people on this planet who know who both are.

mark

He is in the NHL: he plays for the Montreal Canadiens.

I follow the sport pretty religiously. Not sure if you do. Yes, he played 20 or so games last year with Montreal. Not this year.

You said he "...hasn't cracked the NHL..." That was false. Period.

Correct. I should have said cracked the NHL full time. On a positive note he did score last night in the St John's Ice Caps game against the Utica Comets. Hardly famous but might be some day. I like his game.

mark

Agreed

johnny9434

@ricko said:
Well stated dan.... Cheers, RickO

yes it is well said.

bigjpst

@cameonut2011 said:

Don't you think it is a bit hypocritical for members here to advocate reporting the listing as a violation of EBay policy and not also report DCarr listings which also violate EBay policy?

Which policy?

The one quoted earlier in the chain of replies regarding replica coins and/or counterfeits.

I'm sure there are people who will argue the interpretation of the rule, but ebay policy states they do no allow counterfeit, or replica coins. The many medals and tokens Mr. Carr makes and sells are not either of those restricted items, and the overstrikes are Fantasy dates for which ebay has a specific sub-category under Exonumia. For now, his pieces fit into that specific sub category and it seems are OK for sale on ebay.

dcarr

@cameonut2011 said:

@derryb said:
ebay selller has removed all reference to D. Carr from his listings

is seller reading this forum?

It is truly a shame. The piece did not infringe on Carr's intellectual property rights and is in no more violation than any of Carr's pieces which eBay rarely, if ever, removes when reported. Ditto for the NORFED pieces.

The seller had listed a couple of these and advertised them as "similar to Daniel Carr":


I objected to that because I have no connection to those, nor have I ever made anything with a similar design (and I don't even like that design). The use of "Daniel Carr" in the auction titles was perhaps an inappropriate way to draw more attention to the listings. But I can't really blame them for wanting to try that. I would, however, never use "similar to Royal Oak Mint" in any of my own listings.

PS:
It appears that someone (Chinese ?) is making and selling on eBay small Gasparro Dollars, struck on base metal blanks without "COPY" on them. It looks to me like possibly they took a Royal Oak Mint piece and used it to make transfer dies: