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1872cc Half Dollar
Cacoinguy
Posts: 279 ✭✭✭
Recently picked up an 1872cc Seated Half Dollar on Ebay. Obviously the coin has been cleaned but appears to have Unc details. Figured I would be fine with it in a details holder because of the condition rarity. Sent it to our host as a walkthrough and it came back Authenticity unverifiable. Not sure why? What I do know is they are still charging my cc. I paid them for an opinion which I did not receive. Doesnt seem right. Left a message with a guy named David (not hall) but was told he is out until Monday. Item number on ebay 122137575520
What do you guys think?
What do you guys think?
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http://www.ebay.com/itm/1872-CC-Seated-Liberty-Half-Dollar-/122137575520?hash=item1c6ff78060:g:ds4AAOSwLnBX3LiN&nma=true&si=7qyn0GKdwdz8jOpVWLpdooqQrR0%3D&orig_cvip=true&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2557
The vendor you bought it from seems to have plenty of problem coins.
"“Those who sacrifice liberty for security/safety deserve neither.“(Benjamin Franklin)
"I only golf on days that end in 'Y'" (DE59)
A 30-60K coin in MS sells for $989. He has many newly graded coins for sale. I will never understand how these coins ever get sold based on what I just said. Sorry.
they are still charging my cc. I paid them for an opinion which I did not receive. Doesnt seem right.
It says on their website there is no refund for that designation.
Wabbit - as stated in my post I knew it had been cleaned. I felt like if it ended up in an unc details holder it would be worth a couple grand. Whats hard to understand? Very easy to return through ebay as a worst case scenario. Cant hit a homerun if you dont swing the bat
AN UNC details PCGS coin would be worth 10-15 grand, maybe more. He certainly would have sent this in already since he has many newly graded coins. I say this here all day long. If there are newly graded coins and a seller is selling a really tough date like this, for ridiculously cheap, there are problems. Or worse, fake, like this one.
What is hard for me to understand? That someone still buys it thinking they just fooled the guesser.
So you are now sending it back to the seller. You are complaining that PCGS is charging you for saving your bacon by telling you it's fake.
Would you have given the seller an additional 5 grand or more if it came back in a holder? You clearly used walkthrough so that you would have enough time to return the coin. I would add you to my blocked list in 2 seconds flat!
I saw that on the website , just doesnt make a whole lot of sense. Again as stated in the original post you pay for an opinion , whether it be a straight grade , details grade , or counterfeit. When they cant offer one they shouldnt charge. Thats my opinion which im sure most members share.
Look at it this way:
They took the same amount of time and energy...possibly more...determining they couldn't verify the coin's authenticity as they would have if it was obviously fake, or obviously real.
You paid for their opinion, and you got it. You can't really blame them for the coin not being an easy call....or callable at all.
Tommy , I understand your point and didnt think of it in that sense Im sure they spent a great deal of time on the coin it just seems like the answer I received was a cop out which was disappointing, as experts i figured they would be able to tell the difference between real and fake considering all details are present . I guess I was looking at it more in the terms of its real or it isnt. Details or counterfeit.
For what it's worth: I think it's best to consider "Authenticity Unverifiable" to be the same as "Counterfeit" or "Altered". Ain't nobody going to buy any one of them for much over melt.
In that sense, PCGS gave you the answer you needed.
(Well...technically, some contemporary counterfeits are collectable...but I don't think that looks like one).
cannot verify the authenticity. It's just there was of saying it is fake.
Dentils under the date are spaced too far apart....dang good one that's for sure and at least they
got the CC's in the correct font!
bob
If its fake they body bag it and label it counterfeit is my experience in the past
You are (sometimes) correct. Look under the "No Grade" tab at this link:
Link
86-Authenticity Unverifiable
90-Counterfeit
I sent it in walkthrough because I have no patience. Ive purchased plenty of coins and made far more then 10x the money see my recent posts. Pcgs didnt say it was fake , they said authenticity unverifiable. If they knew it was fake wouldnt they list it as counterfeit? Pcgs didnt save my bacon , really they didnt do anything. Ive been around the boards long enough to know your an "internet tough guy" or a "keyboard warrior" who just tries to get under peoples skin, but i imagine in person you would carry a much different tone.
It's not a known fake but they think it might be. What's the difference? Sorry you don't like my opinion but you fall in the category of scamming sellers with what you are doing. If you ask any seller here right now, me included, if they would knowingly sell to you after this story, most would say no. We do not like being used as an approval service, and especially trying for a grade, and when it fails, coin comes back.
Then you want PCGS to cover your only loss in this whole thing? I think it's poor ethics.
Fwiw, the shiny areas around the date look "worked." That doesn't help any when the lower half of the "8" is distorted and grotesque and the bottom half of the "7" doesn't have the expected thickness in the tear drop. Both look like they were worked over. And worst of all the date is not close to level with the 8 sticking down below the 1, and the 7 and 2 sticking up higher than the 1. Totally wrong for this date/mm which should have a level date. I suspect PCGS had the same concerns. The mm looks ok so I checked the more common CC dates (1875, 1876, 1877) to see if those could have been reworked into an 1871. And I just don't see that.
It looks weird. And I don't know exactly what the "alterer" did to the coin. But, they did something. Please explain to us why you think the date is "normal" for an 1872-cc. Give us your hypothesis on why it's real yet looks so strange. It's probably a real coin. But what is it or what was it? Match it to one of the known CC obv die pairs for a better diagnosis. I doubt the CC's were added. They could have called the coin "tooled" or "altered" as well as metal has been moved.
And I don't buy the old guy's story that he is selling off his 50 year old collection. What a Saint! It does seem a bit far-fetched that you were able to buy an unc details coin (3 known in MS) for the price of a VF25/30.
A real 1872-cc date for comparison
I vote 'fake'.
"“Those who sacrifice liberty for security/safety deserve neither.“(Benjamin Franklin)
"I only golf on days that end in 'Y'" (DE59)
Wabbit - how is it scamming sellers? If it came back anything other then fake i would keep it. If you bought a coin and it came back fake youd keep it? Give me a break
Nope. I would not have bought it for all the reasons stated above.
Send it to NGC and see what they say.
Moving on and let us know if you wiggle out of your PCGS charge. If you do, they owe me some cash!
The other nice thing about problem coins is that you can handle them, carry them in your pocket, let others hold them, etc.
When I was a kid, I paid $3 for a nasty, scraped up 1955 DDO because the $50 price tag on a good one was out of my reach.
So, enjoy your purchase. One day someone else will want and appreciate your problem coins. Problem coins can be just as fulfilling.
Cheers
Bob
Actually, you DID receive their opinion...you just do not like it. Cheers, RickO
Actually, you DID receive their opinion...you just do not like it. Cheers, RickO
Why is it so hard for some people to understand? I would have no issues if they had simply said its counterfeit. Thats a good cut to the chase opinion. I just felt like authenticity unverifiable was a cop out. Its either real or it isnt and I would have no problem with either designation.
As for the fee, well PCGS has business rules they follow. Not much you can do about it. My only experience was with a genuine S-VDB (IMO) that had unusual staining around the mm. PCGS was unwilling to call it counterfeit but uneasy about authentication. It was returned as "No decision / refund".
Lance.
Keeper of the VAM Catalog • Professional Coin Imaging • Prime Number Set • World Coins in Early America • British Trade Dollars
"Authenticity Unverifiable" means that while it's not a known counterfeit, as determined by known markers of counterfeit 72-CC halves, it can't be verified to be authentic based on markers of known authentic coins. If you don't like the coin, return it while you can. It looks like the date has been crudely repaired, along with the nearby denticles, and then harshly buffed to try and hide the work. All that work destroyed the diagnostics of an authentic coin.
Well said Messy Desk. That's it in a nutshell.
They could render no other opinion than what they did. It's their money on the line if they declared the coin absolutely genuine and holdered it. You can rest easy that it's 99.44% likely a genuine coin. I'm sure there are some seated specialists around the country that could render the opinion you are seeking based on obv and/or reverse die markers. Though, that might not help get any more money for the coin. Try NGC or ANACS next. Go through a "power submitter" for a little more Mojo in your favor.
Not sure what you think you did not get? PCGS gave you their opinion about the coin, which is what you paid for. It is of Questionable Authenticity, which is a nice way of saying it is either not real, or so overly repaired the coin cannot be considered genuine anymore. Where did you get the idea you should be refunded? You used, and received their service, you just were not happy with the result.
Not sure what you think you did not get? PCGS gave you their opinion about the coin, which is what you paid for. It is of Questionable Authenticity, which is a nice way of saying it is either not real, or so overly repaired the coin cannot be considered genuine anymore. Where did you get the idea you should be refunded? You used, and received their service, you just were not happy with the result.
So why not just say counterfeit? That way the discussion is over and there is no in between about it. Will try NGC for the fun of it and I will post results in the next week or so. By the way Thanks for the good deal on the Nasa .999 plaque you sold me at the Ana Armen. Finally was able to figure out information on it.
So why not just say counterfeit? That way the discussion is over and there is no in between about it. Will try NGC for the fun of it and I will post results in the next week or so.
Why not just say "counterfeit"? Probably because they know it's real and has been monkeyed with way beyond generally accepted standards. If they knew it wasn't counterfeit, and they state that it is for your personal benefit, that leaves them wide open to an opinion that could be easily proven wrong. Not going there.
By saying it's "counterfeit" PCGS leaves the discussion open for potential criticisms from experts who might be able to show it is 100% genuine and not a counterfeit. As PCGS left it, they are not open to criticisms from the general coin community and/or other dealers/experts. That just leaves criticism from the coin's current owner, something I'm sure they can accept.
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Whoa, hold the horses. PCGS never puts FAKE on their holders. If it is a fake they say that they
cannot verify the authenticity. It's just there was of saying it is fake.
Dentils under the date are spaced too far apart....dang good one that's for sure and at least they
got the CC's in the correct font!
bob
That's not true. If a coin is fake, they put "counterfeit" on the label and put it in a plastic flip thing.