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Very nice high end MS64 ogh $20 Lib
roadrunner
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MS64 CAC $20 LIB
You don't see MS64's looking like this very often. Now at approx 30% over generic money. Nice potential upside with generic (unstickered) MS65's worth around $2800-$3000. I bid on it earlier....but no longer in the hunt.
You don't see MS64's looking like this very often. Now at approx 30% over generic money. Nice potential upside with generic (unstickered) MS65's worth around $2800-$3000. I bid on it earlier....but no longer in the hunt.
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Mark
Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
That's a great looking coin!
It's no worse than MS64++. If it were mine I don't think I'd have gone the auction route. Unless the photo is hiding something, imo this meets the requirements for a generic MS65.
Compare to this MS65
GC has really nice coins and have bought some but miss being able use Auction Sniper in these. I recently had a GC coin (a nice 66 FB Merc) go at retail just days after receiving it bringing me a 29.34% margin.
It looks nice for the grade but I do not see it at any more than $2275 retail, you could probably promote it up to $2350 bc of the sticker. Long term outlook on it based on GBV performance but very little downside unless you overpaid.
I wonder if buyer will be trying crack and get higher grade.
That's a great looking coin!
It's no worse than MS64++. If it were mine I don't think I'd have gone the auction route. Unless the photo is hiding something, imo this meets the requirements for a generic MS65.
Compare to this MS65
Isn't $2200-$2300 generic 65 money these days?
I had this one that a PNG dealer swore had a good chance at 65. http://i.imgur.com/4Mrfr.jpg It was PCGS OH 64 CAC, NGC saw it as a 64 too; sometimes a coin has little upgrade potential.
Wow it sure does, what a beauty.
I had this one that a PNG dealer swore had a good chance at 65. http://i.imgur.com/4Mrfr.jpg It was PCGS OH 64 CAC, NGC saw it as a 64 too; sometimes a coin has little upgrade potential.
Only when the submitter doesn't have patience. It often doesn't get done on your first attempt. Almost any high end common gold type coin will eventually get the upgrade. My best example of that was my PCGS MS64 $10 Lib that I thought was a no-brainer upgrade. It came back NG from both PCGS and NGC. Next time out in came back MS66. I don't think any of these grades was the correct one. It probably was a MS65.
On that particular coin probably too much obv field chatter from 9:00 to 3:00. Nice color and bold luster though. Definitely strong for the grade.
I wonder if buyer will be trying crack and get higher grade.
This is what will happen. And I believe within several attempts it would go MS65. Would help to send it back in with some routine MS64's for "cover."
If you've already dropped out of the bidding, then the upside potential isn't that impressive. I can just imagine walking that coin, in a fresh PCGS 65 slab, in to a B&M.....thinking you may have scored after the auction win, fees paid, new grading fees paid, shipping, etc........hilarity ensues!
Incorrect. I had the more funds laying around to tie up for months I 'd possibly take a crack at this coin in the $2200-$2300 range....assuming I could see it in hand. It I felt it was an honest low end MS65 in hand I'd go a tad higher. Upside potential is $400-$500 or so and downside for a 64+ CAC is maybe $100-$200. Just not enough leverage to tie up at the $2300 level. Generic 64's are around $1725 so a CAC 64 would be $2050-$2150. It would likely get no worse than a + if resubmitted...and that would likely push the coin up to the $2200-$2400 level with CAC sticker. In this sight-unseen auction based on photo only, I'm not willing to go over $2,000 all-in, even if GC offers a return where your only cost would be postage each way (ie $40-$50).
The final laugh might be on you if the coin also stickered after going MS65. And that's certainly possible as CAC judges surfaces over pure marks. And this coin already passed the CAC surfaces test....which 70-85% don't. A CAC MS65 is up in the $3700-$4000 range. I wouldn't dare walk this coin into a B&M. Why waste my time. I'd pick up the phone and call Heritage and/or Rarcoa and see what they're paying for spot free MS65's.....it's typically 5% under their MS65 buy price.
I walked my "high end" MS64 $20 cited over to Paul at RCNH; he didn't think it had what it took for the "5", was pretty sure about that. When NGC 64'd it, I sent it to CAC and sold it to them I think, taking my lumps and moving on.
LOL. Yeah, I was told the same thing by a major gold dealer who used to grade for PCGS in the early years. He told me my old fatty NGC MS64 $20 LIb bought at the local B&M had NO CHANCE of an upgrade because of some grazes in the fields. He offered to buy it for $2,000 at the time which I declined. That was a measly $200 profit with a potential to go to $3,000. I walked it through at the FUN show and it came back NGC MS65. I sold it to the same dealer too...lol. I think he paid me $3000. So much for "dealer-speak." Look at the photo of the MS65 above. It's clearly got more marks and no better surfaces or luster. And there's a MS66 coming up soon too that has about the same level of marks as this MS64.
Auction tonight ended at $2,388 all in. So $2400 after insurance/shipping. That's more than I'd be willing to pay in-hand. Of course the new owner can just regrade it (likely a 64+) and be about break even. If they upgrade it, then he's in it for $50 more in fees and makes at least $350. Nothing wrong with that. I was just hoping the coin might slip by tonight for not a whole lot more than generic 64 CAC levels and give me a 10-1 leverage to the upside. Fat chance.
If you've already dropped out of the bidding, then the upside potential isn't that impressive. I can just imagine walking that coin, in a fresh PCGS 65 slab, in to a B&M.....thinking you may have scored after the auction win, fees paid, new grading fees paid, shipping, etc........hilarity ensues!
Incorrect. I had the more funds laying around to tie up for months I 'd possibly take a crack at this coin in the $2200-$2300 range....assuming I could see it in hand. It I felt it was MS65 I'd go a tad higher. Upside potential is $400-$500 or so and downside for a 64+ CAC is maybe $100-$200. Just not enough leverage to tie up at the $2300 level. Generic 64's are around $1725 so a CAC 64 would be $2050-$2150. It would likely get no worse than a + if resubmitted. In a sight-unseen auction based on photo only, not willing to go over $2,000 all-in, even if they do offer a return where your only cost would be postage each way (ie $40-$50).
The final laugh might be on you if the coin also stickered after going MS65. And that's certainly possible as CAC judges surfaces over pure marks. And this coin already passed the CAC surfaces test....which 70-85% don't. A CAC 65 is up in the $3700-$4000 range.
I can't necessarily disagree with these points, though you may be low balling the added costs of resubmission (possibly multiple times), shipping, auction fee, etc. A $500 upside could quickly be reduced. And you may have missed the "B&M" part of my earlier post.....a generic $20 Lib, no matter how nice, is going to get ripped by the average counter patrol at most B&Ms.
And you may have missed the "B&M" part of my earlier post.....a generic $20 Lib, no matter how nice, is going to get ripped by the average counter patrol at most B&Ms.
Not at any of my B&M's. Most of them can't tell the difference from an average 64 to a pq one. Most of them never get a 64 Lib in, let alone a 65. And my best local shop that does get these in from time to time, hates NGC coins. So anything in early NGC holders gets wholesaled off no matter what it looks like. My last MS65 $20 Lib was made that same way....they couldn't unload that NGC coin any quicker to me. They just don't have the clients for them. In fact, nearly all of their MS64 and up slabbed gold is wholesaled because their clients aren't looking for them. Even when the slabbed gold market was humming from 2009-2011, I had no competition at my local shops for these coins spending up to $30K each month. There was no "counter-gang." That might be true in LA, Chicago, Dallas, Boston, and NY, but not in my neck of the woods. Most of my shop owners can't grade at that level. Whatever they get back on the first submission or first regrade is what it stays.
mark
Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
I was in the Stacks main lobby back in the early days of slabbing, probably later 1988. The display area was packed for auction lot viewing with about 20-30 dealers with long waits between boxes. It was a strong auction drawing more attention than normal. I was bored waiting for my next box of lots. I was casually looking at the store's coins in the display trays under me and noticed a couple very lustrous raw seated coins, one of them an 1870 seated dollar. I asked to see the coin. It was graded MS63 by Stacks and offered to me for $1200. I couldn't get my check book out fast enough though I had to contain my glee until the coin was in my hand for good. There was also a no drapery seated dime graded MS63 that I felt was better. I bought them both.
I showed them to dealer Jay Miller right there in the viewing room who immediately offered me a 10-15% profit for them. The 1870 looked like a lock 64 to me so I was going to try it. Sure enough, both came back MS64 and a $1,000+ profit as I recall....for 10 minutes of work. And those were right under the noses of some of the best dealer/graders in the country....not to mention the Stacks "counter-gang."
If it happened back then with the best eyes in the world "looking"...why not today at your local B&M? One time I made the mistake of showing one of my local shops my box of 40 seated and bust coins. Huge mistake. They couldn't believe how "high" they were graded. They called my lock MS63 no drapery half an AU....that same coin was later in the Jim Swan and Oliver Jung type coin collections...not exactly chopped liver. And my MS65 RE half they felt was MS63. I realized they weren't even able to get in the ball park so why was I trying to educate them? That would only cost me money the next time they got something similar in. I never showed counter gangs anything like that again. Take those coins out of the holders, and their "expertise" can drop significantly.
I think the buyer got a really nice coin for a good price considering what I see out there in 64+ and/or CAC.
I agree. This coin was head and shoulders above 90-95% of all MS64's....and probably better than 5-20% of all generic MS65's. And this is where there's a huge spread from $1715 spot free generic money for a "train wreck" to $2900 for a low end generic PCGS MS65. The CAC MS65 is another 25-40% higher.
The final price of $2400 was $700 over generic P64 money, and $500 short of generic P65 money. It also shows that despite the "step" pricing structure most apply to rare coins, it's actually a continuous pricing spectrum. My biggest surprise with this coin was that it stayed in the OGH for all these years. In 2009 this coin could have been cracked out and turned into a generic $5250 MS65. And my 2nd biggest surprise was that the coin was put up for auction without any attempt at owner arbitrage other than to CAC it. They didn't do bad though getting well over routine MS64 money. But they left the upgrade potential for someone else.
I'll put it another way. This coin would grade MS65 based on marks if it were a Morgan dollar. Yet it's a $20 Lib made of soft gold that is typically graded 1/2-1 pt easier than a Morgan. If given the chance to buy this coin for $2400 or a generic one for $1700, I'd buy this one.
I think the buyer got a really nice coin for a good price considering what I see out there in 64+ and/or CAC.
Agreed
M
Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
CAC MS64+
Just for reference APMEX is selling generic $20 Libs in PCGS/CAC MS64+ for $2295.
And their posted photo for a 64+ CAC coin is nowhere near close to this 64 ogh. Night vs. day.
I guess there are "generic" 64+ coins too.
Just for reference APMEX is selling generic $20 Libs in PCGS/CAC MS64+ for $2295.
And their posted photo for a 64+ CAC coin is nowhere near close to this 64 ogh. Night vs. day.
I guess there are "generic" 64+ coins too.
Not just "generic" 64+ coins, generic PCGS/CAC MS64+ coins.
PCGS saw it raw as a 64+ and CAC saw it in-hand and said it was solid for a 64 so the stock image versus an auction image is hardly night and day unless you think the Great Collections coin was a lock 65 (gold sticker) which it was (apparently) not.
Just sayin'.
I'm just looking at the obv field and facial cuts/grazes on those 2 coins and it is night and day. The 64 ogh is far cleaner without a single "obvious" obverse hit, slice, cut, etc. CAC not gold beaning that coin is totally meaningless. A gold sticker would imply the coin was a minimum of MS65.4 with CAC on the line to pay that $1500 difference from 64 to 65. I'm only suggesting the coin is in the 64.9 to 65.3 range (ie a low end 65). CAC never recognizes those with a gold sticker. All we know is that CACS sees this 64 ogh in the range of 64.4 to 65.3.....which is of little help to its upgrade potential....but it is helpful to know they approve of the luster/surfaces of the coin (ie no putty or playing with it).
How many gold stickers has CAC given out to MS64 or higher $20 Libs? Uh...how about 1. An MS64 1894-s. There are 3 gold CACs for all MS63's of the 1904. Clearly, such a sticker on a 64 or higher $20 Lib is Onobtanium. To even bring that into this discussion makes no sense. If you want to find 64 gold cacs, look at common date Morgans, mercs, buffs worth in the $50-$200 range. You won't find them on MS64 gold coins. Even the common Saints with a fairly small spread from MS64 to 65 or even MS65 to MS66 only have a total of 8 gold CACs in MS64/65. And that's the "easiest" one. Most have from 0-3 for the entire type.
$20 Lib CAC golds
CAC has stickered 4891 MS64 $20 Libs. Only 1 got a gold sticker. Good odds. Now figure they only sticker about 1 out of every 5 MS64 $20 Libs submitted and that's about 25,000-1 odds with any random MS64 $20 Lib sent to CAC.
CAC's primary mission is to identify solid for the grade or even better coins that they can make offers on. They are not there to identify which of your coins might upgrade and assign betting odds to that. For a little extra publicity they came up with the gold CAC for no-brainer upgradeable coins...with the vast majority of those coins being fairly common with lower spreads between grades (ie low risk for CAC). You can bet they've seen hundreds of MS64 $20 Libs that have solid upgrade potential....ALL of them but 1 getting a green sticker. They have to leave some upside for themselves.
The 04-P is a common bullion date that sat in bags in Europe for decades and comes nice.
Large diameter gold like this need to be seen in hand while rotated under a light source to determine anything.
As even a slight degree rotation under lighting during photography can hide marks which will never be seen in a photo.
Did you look at the enlarged "stock" image at AMPEX? It's quite good showing every mark on that coin quite clearly. I'd give that coin 0% chance of an upgrade to 65.
I'm just looking at the obv field and facial cuts/grazes on those 2 coins and it is night and day. The 64 ogh is far cleaner without a single "obvious" obverse hit, slice, cut, etc. CAC not gold beaning that coin is totally meaningless. A gold sticker would imply the coin was a minimum of MS65.4 with CAC on the line to pay that $1500 difference from 64 to 65. I'm only suggesting the coin is in the 64.9 to 65.3 range (ie a low end 65). CAC never recognizes those with a gold sticker. All we know is that CACS sees this 64 ogh in the range of 64.4 to 65.3.....which is of little help to its upgrade potential....but it is helpful to know they approve of the luster/surfaces of the coin (ie no putty or playing with it).
How many gold stickers has CAC given out to MS64 or higher $20 Libs? Uh...how about 1. An MS64 1894-s. There are 3 gold CACs for all MS63's of the 1904. Clearly, such a sticker on a 64 or higher $20 Lib is Onobtanium. To even bring that into this discussion makes no sense. If you want to find 64 gold cacs, look at common date Morgans, mercs, buffs worth in the $50-$200 range. You won't find them on MS64 gold coins. Even the common Saints with a fairly small spread from MS64 to 65 or even MS65 to MS66 only have a total of 8 gold CACs in MS64/65. And that's the "easiest" one. Most have from 0-3 for the entire type.
$20 Lib CAC golds
CAC has stickered 4891 MS64 $20 Libs. Only 1 got a gold sticker. Good odds. Now figure they only sticker about 1 out of every 5 MS64 $20 Libs submitted and that's about 25,000-1 odds with any random MS64 $20 Lib sent to CAC.
CAC's primary mission is to identify solid for the grade or even better coins that they can make offers on. They are not there to identify which of your coins might upgrade and assign betting odds to that. For a little extra publicity they came up with the gold CAC for no-brainer upgradeable coins...with the vast majority of those coins being fairly common with lower spreads between grades (ie low risk for CAC). You can bet they've seen hundreds of MS64 $20 Libs that have solid upgrade potential....ALL of them but 1 getting a green sticker. They have to leave some upside for themselves.
Okay you win.
I'm sure you know a lot more about this subject than I do and your attitude makes that abundantly clear.
I was simply pointing out the obvious.