Marlins ace Jose Fernandez dies in boating accident

craig44

Just terrible news this morning. jofer has died at 24. What a shame.

K

Saw that about 20 mins ago. What a shame. Kid had a promising future ahead of him.

Justacommeman

Indeed horrible . In a bit of tragic irony irony Fernandez was born in Cuba and successfully defected when he was 15, his fourth attempt to leave the country. That, too, was also tragic. In their escape from Cuba, his mother had fallen off the boat they were on and young Jose swam 60 feet in chopping waves to save her. He carried her to the boat on his back.



He was originally supposed to pitch today but his start was pushed back until Monday. I wondered if that start wasn't pushed back if he would have been out on the boat on Saturday? I think not as your prep is different. Fate, you just never know.



He was an expectant father.....



Today's Marlins-Braves game was cancelled



mark

craig44

I didn't know he had a child on the way. What a tragedy.

grote15

Terrible news. He had all the talent in the world.

lbcoach20

What a punch in the gut. Terrible tragedy.

MCMLVTopps

A new report claims the boat was travelling between 50 and 65MPH (full speed), when it hit the rocks on the jetty around 3AM.



WHO, WHO drives a boat like that at 3AM?? Surely they had to know there were jetties closer to shore, why the need for such speed?



Fernandez was a passenger, not driving...he was with 2 friends, all in their 20s.

Justacommeman

Fernandez was legally drunk and had coicane in his system. Shame. What a waste of a young life.

mark

grote15

What a waste, indeed. Bad enough to be drinking but doing coke, too? Geez.

Barndog

I guess the process of canonization should stop now.

Justacommeman

It's still unclear who was piloting the boat. His blood alcohol level was almost twice the legal limit.

mark

craig44

Unfortunately this story took a turn. My feelings about jofer have certainly changed since I saw the news. I hope Miami decides to cancel retiring his number in light of this new information. I suppose it is a good thing when teams take an appropriate amount of time to reflect before deciding to honor players. Very disappointing.

DIMEMAN

It's hard to feel sorry for millionaire jocks that do stupid things.

49ersGuy

Marlins should immediately un-retire his number.

One side note. I checked e-bay "sold" for Jose Fernandez auto right after his death just out of curiosity and within 24 hours of his death 600+ auto's were sold which represented more than 70% that were available prior to his death. Hopefully his cards drop like a brick and the guy trying to cash in on Jose's death loses a ton of cash.

Justacommeman

@DIMEMAN said:
It's hard to feel sorry for millionaire jocks that do stupid things.

Exactly how I feel about Pete Rose although his millions are a lot less

mark

DIMEMAN

@Justacommeman said:

@DIMEMAN said:
It's hard to feel sorry for millionaire jocks that do stupid things.

Exactly how I feel about Pete Rose although his millions are a lot less

mark

It's not the same and you know it!

RoarIn84

So wait.... Because the guy partied and made a tragic decision, he has to be a disgraced pariah?? People amaze me.... I bet you all still have your Doors, Hendrix, Prince and Nirvana records! Good thing Munson wasn't found intoxicated. We never would have found out anyway.

craig44

@RoarIn84 said:
So wait.... Because the guy partied and made a tragic decision, he has to be a disgraced pariah?? People amaze me.... I bet you all still have your Doors, Hendrix, Prince and Nirvana records! Good thing Munson wasn't found intoxicated. We never would have found out anyway.

Yup, you got it right. He is now a disgraced pariah. No one is perfect. We all make mistakes, but we all don't get drunk and snort lines. As a pro athlete, he knew he had millions of eyes and cameras on him at all times. You would think with that kind of microscope on him, he would have toed the line more than the average person, but no. Very very disappointing

DIMEMAN

craig44 is right here. Just because it happens a lot that does not make it right or acceptable.

Everyone is responsible for his/here actions....period. Just because you are rich does not make it OK.

DIMEMAN

@baseball said:

@DIMEMAN said:
craig44 is right here. Just because it happens a lot that does not make it right or acceptable.

Everyone is responsible for his/here actions....period. Just because you are rich does not make it OK.

Who said it was right or acceptable? I was specifically talking about craig44's expectation that one would expect Fernandez, or any other celebrity, to "toe the line".

You said in your post that what he did was personally OK with you!

DIMEMAN

Using cocaine and drinking to excess on a boat under those circumstances.

grote15

As for using cocaine and alcohol, those are individual choices that I am 100% convinced should be left to the individual to make.

When you choose to drive a boat (or automobile) under the influence of drugs and/or alcohol, it is not just an individual choice as you are endangering the lives of innocent people around you while you are driving that boat or automobile under the influence. If you want to drink or use drugs, don't put other lives at risk.

grote15

@baseball said:
grote15, no one is arguing your point and I think I stated as much already.

I disagree that you stated as much already. This was your statement:

As for using cocaine and alcohol, those are individual choices that I am 100% convinced should be left to the individual to make. If you feel like Big Brother should have THAT much say in how we live our lives, that's your prerogative but one I certainly don't share.

If you're going to call DM's posts vague, you need to do a better job at clarifying yours.

grote15

@baseball said:
Before all that, I wrote earlier on:

However, if he was loaded (as he obviously was) and if he was driving that boat, then it's certainly a SIGNIFICANT lapse in judgment.

Fair enough, though that statement was in a previous post.

grote15

@baseball said:
I'm not sure why it matters that it was in a previous post. In fact, that should give my position even more credence because I've already made that position clear.

That's one way of looking at it. The other is that you were contradicting yourself. Either way, it was not clear because when you make a statement like:

As for using cocaine and alcohol, those are individual choices that I am 100% convinced should be left to the individual to make

it contradicts what you stated previously.

DIMEMAN

Baseball......if you believe it is alright to use cocaine we have nothing to talk about. I agree with groat15 and would hope everyone would.

As far as Rose betting.......betting is a victimless crime. I have repeated over and over that this issue should not keep him out of the HOF.

I will not engage anymore banter with you on this. It's hard to take someone seriously that supports Hilary Clinton.

If I posted how I feel about her (which is all true) I would be banned! Nothing more on this either.

craig44

@baseball said:
I don't at all view it that way and I'm completely surprised that anyone would. Your making it seem like my position has somehow been unclear such that a person's right in "using cocaine and alcohol" could be interpreted as "using cocaine and alcohol AND driving a vehicle". I have NEVER made that impression. In fact, I specifically stated, to be more comprehensive:

He's a grown man and I completely believe in individual freedom of choice to do whatever one wants as long as it doesn't infringe upon others. However, if he was loaded (as he obviously was) and if he was driving that boat, then it's certainly a SIGNIFICANT lapse in judgment.

How on earth does "recreational" cocaine use not infringe on others freedom? Who do you think pays for the emt, medical treatment, hospital stays etc when these recreational users overdose? You and me friend. What about when they inevitably loose their jobs. Who pays for their rent, food, car etc? Yup, we do. Still think recreational cocaine users don't infringe on others? What about the emotional toll it takes on a user's parents and close friends and relatives.
I think your dead wrong on this one.

craig44

@baseball said:
craig44,

You're certainly free to feel about him how you will, but reality has proven over millenniums that your logic of "celebrities" toeing the line is actually not at all to be expected. In fact, while it's far from ideal, one should expect significant partiers, adulterers, and generally otherwise very entitled and egotistical individuals. Logically, that makes perfect sense to me as people who have all kinds of options constantly thrown they're way, are going to have a much stronger likelihood of indulging in those options.

As for Fernandez himself, I personally have NO problem with him drinking or snorting as much cocaine as he wants. He's a grown man and I completely believe in individual freedom of choice to do whatever one wants as long as it doesn't infringe upon others. However, if he was loaded (as he obviously was) and if he was driving that boat, then it's certainly a SIGNIFICANT lapse in judgment.

if you had all the money, opportunity and fame you could imagine, why waste it all due to drugs or other bad choices? Because your bored? Peer pressure? I don't get it.

Justacommeman

@craig44 said:

@baseball said:
craig44,

You're certainly free to feel about him how you will, but reality has proven over millenniums that your logic of "celebrities" toeing the line is actually not at all to be expected. In fact, while it's far from ideal, one should expect significant partiers, adulterers, and generally otherwise very entitled and egotistical individuals. Logically, that makes perfect sense to me as people who have all kinds of options constantly thrown they're way, are going to have a much stronger likelihood of indulging in those options.

As for Fernandez himself, I personally have NO problem with him drinking or snorting as much cocaine as he wants. He's a grown man and I completely believe in individual freedom of choice to do whatever one wants as long as it doesn't infringe upon others. However, if he was loaded (as he obviously was) and if he was driving that boat, then it's certainly a SIGNIFICANT lapse in judgment.

if you had all the money, opportunity and fame you could imagine, why waste it all due to drugs or other bad choices? Because your bored? Peer pressure? I don't get it.

Relationship problems perhaps. Young people tend to make a lot of mistakes. Now factor in a kid coming from abject poverty to millions in the bank at such a young age living in South Beach. Nothing prepare you for this.

It's a tradegy and a shame.

mark

craig44

I don't think there was anything nonsensical in my response. You comparing illicit hard drug use with a trip to the lake seems a bit hyperbolic though don't you think? The libertarian in me also has a strong let people be bent, but hard drug use is never a victimless crime either economically or emotionally. The same can also be said of something like motorcycling without a helmet. Fine until an accident victim ends up with traumatic brain injury and a 6 month and $750,000.00 hospital bill. Even if they are insured, you better believe our premiums are going up to make up that expenditure.

craig44

I never said alcohol or nicotine are ok.

craig44

You must agree that using hard drugs or abusing alcohol comes with far more risk and cost to society that a drive to the lake, no?

craig44

How about heroin or meth or krocodile, should we throw those drugs into the mix too? Is being addicted to a drug "living free"?

49ersGuy

The most important aspect that seems lost on some people is that fact that 2 other people are dead because of his actions.

That should be the focal point on how this person is viewed. This is no different than the person who leaves a bar drunk and gets in his car and ends up killing a few people.

craig44

"Not sure. Ideally, I'd like such freedoms to be unfettered but drugs like PCP and probably heroin and LSD create more significant problems in various forms including potential harm to other citizens, MUCH higher levels of medical assistance required, too addictive, etc."

You don't think cocaine is highly addictive and impairs ones judgment as badly as the drugs listed above? You must not have lived through the 80's. In addition, cocaine is a definite bridge to opiates like heroin. I think in theory, many people, self included, would like an unfettered life with very little government intervention. however, we have a large population and the danger and cost to those innocents in society are to great to allow hard drugs like coke, heroin and the like to be legal. Just the added healthcare costs would FAR outweigh any tax benefits. Think of the overwhelming bureaucracy needed to oversee and enforce legalizing hard drugs. There would be no "profit" from taxes. Economically it is loser all around.

craig44

Just because cocaine use is a very tiny tiny problem relative to the other things you mention doesn't mean it should be legalized. That is a fallacy in logic. Think of it this way. First degree murder is a very very tiny piece of the death "pie". auto deaths, cancer, cardiac events, drowning, suicide etc far, far outpace first degree murder as a cause of death. Because it is such a tiny part, why not legalize it? We wouldn't have to employ as many detectives, medical examiners, fbi agents etc. There is also a very small segment of our population who derive some sort of pleasure from hurting others. So they would be happy campers.
See how that line of reasoning falls apart when extrapolated. Just because something is a small problem relative to other problems doesn't mean it should be legalized.

In case you didn't know, cocaine is a very addictive drug. Od's do happen and are often fatal due to cardiac arrest. You may know some "functioning" addicts, but that is rare. There are also "functioning" alcoholics, also rare. To bring it back around to sports, remember the 80's cocaine scandal in baseball? Many careers were derailed or destroyed due to this drug.

craig44

The careers that were derailed/destroyed were due to the talent robbing effects of cocaine, not because they were arrested. I don't think any ball players were arrested. Dave Parker cost himself the hof over cocaine.

Most of the gun deaths you site are actually due to suicide, not homicide.

Do you actually believe cocaine to be a safe drug? I am getting that impression

You surely don't believe people should be allowed to do what they want to do, do you? Now that is a silly statement. Are you an anarchist? Should rape, murder and arson be legal because "people should be allowed to do what they want to do?

craig44

Should people be allowed to ride a motorcycle without a helmet because they want to?

Think about the money that one simple act costs all of us each year in increased health costs and insurance fees. Is that fair to everyone so that some people can feel "cool" and have the wind in their hair?

travis t

@49ersGuy said:
The most important aspect that seems lost on some people is that fact that 2 other people are dead because of his actions.

That should be the focal point on how this person is viewed. This is no different than the person who leaves a bar drunk and gets in his car and ends up killing a few people.

Correct. It's funny how these arguments veer off into other regions. The fact of the matter is, he owned the boat. Whether he was actually at the helm or not, the culpability issue is going to be dealt with. The man had a volatile personality. He was reputedly upset about having his start bumped up to the next day. He invited teammates to go out on his boat with him and they declined. He was at a bar with friends and THEN decided to go out on the water after midnight.

This story is far from over. Sensibility will eventually spread into a common opinion. It's a terrible tragedy which didn't need to happen.

craig44

You can "believe" anything you want, but it doesn't make it truth.

I never said anything about alcohol or nicotine being better or worse than hard drugs.

You still didn't address any of my questions.

travis t

@baseball said:

@travis t said:

@49ersGuy said:
The most important aspect that seems lost on some people is that fact that 2 other people are dead because of his actions.

That should be the focal point on how this person is viewed. This is no different than the person who leaves a bar drunk and gets in his car and ends up killing a few people.

Correct. It's funny how these arguments veer off into other regions. The fact of the matter is, he owned the boat. Whether he was actually at the helm or not, the culpability issue is going to be dealt with. The man had a volatile personality. He was reputedly upset about having his start bumped up to the next day. He invited teammates to go out on his boat with him and they declined. He was at a bar with friends and THEN decided to go out on the water after midnight.

This story is far from over. Sensibility will eventually spread into a common opinion. It's a terrible tragedy which didn't need to happen.

The bottom line is that this is mostly just bad luck. This sort of thing goes on ALL over the country on a daily basis and pretty much ALL of us have done VERY VERY stupid things that could have had tragic consequences but didn't.

It seems very unfair to call the guy "volatile" based on the fact that he was upset about his start date. LOTS if not virtually every pitcher would have a problem with having their routine tinkered with. Also, he could just have had a bad day. He's human, leave it be. If you convince me that he beat his fiance or something that most of us can't relate to, then I'll jump on your bandwagon, and maybe even do some of the driving.

His personality being described as volatile could mean a variety of things and I certainly wouldn't infer that he was necessarily dangerous, but how about let's say that he was filled with exuberance? This was a man with a very strong and active personality, well known in his community, and yes, well respected. Again, it did become some type of news early on, whether right or wrong is for each of us to decide. I would never suggest that he was intending to harm anyone, including himself.

craig44

@baseball said:

@travis t said:

@49ersGuy said:
The most important aspect that seems lost on some people is that fact that 2 other people are dead because of his actions.

That should be the focal point on how this person is viewed. This is no different than the person who leaves a bar drunk and gets in his car and ends up killing a few people.

Correct. It's funny how these arguments veer off into other regions. The fact of the matter is, he owned the boat. Whether he was actually at the helm or not, the culpability issue is going to be dealt with. The man had a volatile personality. He was reputedly upset about having his start bumped up to the next day. He invited teammates to go out on his boat with him and they declined. He was at a bar with friends and THEN decided to go out on the water after midnight.

This story is far from over. Sensibility will eventually spread into a common opinion. It's a terrible tragedy which didn't need to happen.

The bottom line is that this is mostly just bad luck. This sort of thing goes on ALL over the country on a daily basis and pretty much ALL of us have done VERY VERY stupid things that could have had tragic consequences but didn't.

It seems very unfair to call the guy "volatile" based on the fact that he was upset about his start date. LOTS if not virtually every pitcher would have a problem with having their routine tinkered with. Also, he could just have had a bad day. He's human, leave it be. If you convince me that he beat his fiance or something that most of us can't relate to, then I'll jump on your bandwagon, and maybe even do some of the driving.

Bad luck!! What! There was no involved. This was not an accident either. These three guys made a decision. They were not kids like some have said, but grown men who chose to do an incredibly stupid thing.

And if having a start pushed back would cause a guy to get so upset that he got loaded and high and ride in a boat at 2:00 am, yes, I would call him volatile as well.

craig44

@baseball said:

@craig44 said:
You can "believe" anything you want, but it doesn't make it truth.

I never said anything about alcohol or nicotine being better or worse than hard drugs.

You still didn't address any of my questions.

And you can "believe" whatever you want, but it doesn't make it truth.

I'm not arguing against you about alcohol or nicotine. I couldn't care less whether you approve of them or not. Based on your posts, it sounds like you want the whole country to lead an Amish lifestyle. Either way, society has deemed those substances to be okay and I'm comparing the nonsensical logic in that.

The rest of your questions aren't worthy of addressing because they're just repeats of the same discussion that we've had in this thread, your just moving on to different colors.

Look at the studies and see if doctors and scientists think cocaine is addictive, mind altering and dangerous. You will find that they will disagree with your position.

You don't want to answer those questions, not because they are unworthy, but because they kill your position. Let's call a spade a spade here.

travis t

It's also important to remember that again, early on in the reporting, it was discussed how Fernandez liked to take his boat out fishing, and that maybe he was trying to get an early start for that day in part because he didn't need to worry about making that start until the following day. There was plenty of speculation flying around about different interpretations of what might have caused the accident. It was an accident. To call it something other than that would require a deeper explanation, but many accidents are categorized as reckless and this was one of them. Does anyone sincerely believe that their intention was to go fishing?

perkdog

This incident is obviously a tragedy, I'm 100% with Baseball on this. The guy was 24 years old and doing what 90% of other kids his age do, he wasn't involved in a malicious incident acting like a gangsta, he was partying with his friends and right wrong or indifferent it cost him his life. Again a very tragic incident and judging him in a bad way is morally wrong.

craig44

@baseball said:

@craig44 said:

@baseball said:

@craig44 said:
You can "believe" anything you want, but it doesn't make it truth.

I never said anything about alcohol or nicotine being better or worse than hard drugs.

You still didn't address any of my questions.

And you can "believe" whatever you want, but it doesn't make it truth.

I'm not arguing against you about alcohol or nicotine. I couldn't care less whether you approve of them or not. Based on your posts, it sounds like you want the whole country to lead an Amish lifestyle. Either way, society has deemed those substances to be okay and I'm comparing the nonsensical logic in that.

The rest of your questions aren't worthy of addressing because they're just repeats of the same discussion that we've had in this thread, your just moving on to different colors.

Look at the studies and see if doctors and scientists think cocaine is addictive, mind altering and dangerous. You will find that they will disagree with your position.

You don't want to answer those questions, not because they are unworthy, but because they kill your position. Let's call a spade a spade here.

And scientists have said the SAME thing about alcohol and nicotine (though not mind altering on that).

Why would they "kill" my position? You're asking the SAME things again and again. I don't have time to be redundant. Think of something new and I'll happily address it. But don't ask me what I think of the color red. Then what I think of the color blue. And then pink. And then yellow.

I don't understand why you are so stuck on alcohol and nicotine.
And I keep asking the same questions because you refuse to answer them.

craig44

@baseball said:

@craig44 said:

@baseball said:

@travis t said:

@49ersGuy said:
The most important aspect that seems lost on some people is that fact that 2 other people are dead because of his actions.

That should be the focal point on how this person is viewed. This is no different than the person who leaves a bar drunk and gets in his car and ends up killing a few people.

Correct. It's funny how these arguments veer off into other regions. The fact of the matter is, he owned the boat. Whether he was actually at the helm or not, the culpability issue is going to be dealt with. The man had a volatile personality. He was reputedly upset about having his start bumped up to the next day. He invited teammates to go out on his boat with him and they declined. He was at a bar with friends and THEN decided to go out on the water after midnight.

This story is far from over. Sensibility will eventually spread into a common opinion. It's a terrible tragedy which didn't need to happen.

The bottom line is that this is mostly just bad luck. This sort of thing goes on ALL over the country on a daily basis and pretty much ALL of us have done VERY VERY stupid things that could have had tragic consequences but didn't.

It seems very unfair to call the guy "volatile" based on the fact that he was upset about his start date. LOTS if not virtually every pitcher would have a problem with having their routine tinkered with. Also, he could just have had a bad day. He's human, leave it be. If you convince me that he beat his fiance or something that most of us can't relate to, then I'll jump on your bandwagon, and maybe even do some of the driving.

Bad luck!! What! There was no involved. This was not an accident either. These three guys made a decision. They were not kids like some have said, but grown men who chose to do an incredibly stupid thing.

And if having a start pushed back would cause a guy to get so upset that he got loaded and high and ride in a boat at 2:00 am, yes, I would call him volatile as well.

No one is suggesting that they didn't make a bad decision. The point is, TONS of people that age with those resources do similar things. Heck, TONS of people that age, and younger and older that have no resources drink tons of alcohol and drive, assault people, and much worse. They're living life as it has pretty much ALWAYS been led since the dawn of civilization. You may not like it. It may not be holy, but THAT'S what people choose to do. Apart from the crash, there is NOTHING surprising about the events of that night. Once again, if you're so bent on an Amish lifestyle, move to rural PA.

You have NO basis for understanding why he did what he did. Talk about absolutely false causation.

I don't feel that thinking cocaine, a highly addictive and dangerous drug, shouldn't be legal is wanting to lead an "Amish" lifestyle. Not quite sure where you got that one from.

You must see how juvenile your argument seems here. You argue that because TONS of people get loaded and high and crash a vehicle that it is ok to get loaded and high. It is expected. Well, no. Tons of people don't get loaded and high and crash into a pier. One very immature guy who happened to be really good at throwing a baseball did and now he is a pariah.

craig44

@perkdog said:
This incident is obviously a tragedy, I'm 100% with Baseball on this. The guy was 24 years old and doing what 90% of other kids his age do, he wasn't involved in a malicious incident acting like a gangsta, he was partying with his friends and right wrong or indifferent it cost him his life. Again a very tragic incident and judging him in a bad way is morally wrong.

Well, he wasn't a kid. He was a 24 year old man with grown up responsibilities. He had a girlfriend and a child on the way. When you have grown up responsibilities, you have officially opted out of "partying with your friends" getting hammered, doing lines and riding in a boat at high speed at 2:00 am. Maybe he should have done what grownups do and gone home to his pregnant girlfriend. Now there is a child who will grow up without a dad. All because he had to do what 90% of other "kids" his age do. So pardon me if my level of respect for this particular person has dropped a few notches.

travis t

You had a level? Had you ever given a thought to this young man's disposition before he became a tragic news topic? I sure as heck agree with you about taking responsibility for your life and making proper decisions. People can also succumb to weaknesses. That's what makes us who we are. Capable of mistakes and horrible failures. The public's approval of private behavior is not pertinent to the topic, though. There were people involved who encouraged him not to go out on the water that night. They pleaded. They cajoled. But they were not his keepers.

craig44

Well, I had hoped, naively, this was an innocent accident. Now we have found out it was not. Yes, I did have a level of respect for him before I found out it was more important for him to go out partying with his friends all night getting high and drunk and ultimately leaving his unborn child fatherless. Now, not so much respect.

travis t

How do we know what the intentions of his two friends were? Drinking and partying? Ok, I'll grant this as an interpretation of events for obvious reasons. But, based on the information we've been provided with so far, I'd tend to think the men with him when the boat crashed were there with the hopes of protecting him and preventing him from seriously harming himself. However, we could also potentially assume that they were in no proper condition to provide him with the protection he required at the time.