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How to approach PCGS on grading discrepancies?
jmski52
Posts: 23,235 ✭✭✭✭✭
I've been pursuing a Registry Set, and I'm down to a few coins that don't show up in auctions or for sale very often. I've had some disagreements on grades from time to time, but for the most part, I accept the general idea of getting a third party opinion, professionally-rendered.
Awhile back, a coin became available which was graded by another company and I decided to take a gamble in trying to cross it as an MS-69 over to PCGS. Recently I submitted the coin* and unfortunately it came back as an MS-68. It seems like a pretty nice coin, and I thought it had a reasonable shot at MS-69 but it didn't make the grade. So, I figured I'd just have to wait it out for a PCGS-graded MS-69.
Well, one came available in a private party transaction and I bought it. I received the PCGS MS-69 coin today and it was pretty awful, not just "for the grade" but pretty awful in general. Pockmarks all across Liberty's face and some visible scuffs as well. In fact, the freshly-graded MS-68 I just had graded is much, much, much nicer!!
Frankly, I don't know what to do. The MS-69 isn't the quality I want for my collection. The MS-68 is acceptable but the grade is not. If I sent both coins to PCGS for reconsideration of the MS-68, would the discrepancies in grading weigh on their decision?
I can't see spending money on sight-unseen MS-69 coins any longer if there is no recourse. After all, sight-unseen trading was the entire justification for fee-paid third party grading in the first place.
Comments?
* - I cracked out the NGC MS-69 before submitting it raw. I guess that isn't technically a "crossover". (I've never submitted a "crossover" so I didn't know the nuances.)
Awhile back, a coin became available which was graded by another company and I decided to take a gamble in trying to cross it as an MS-69 over to PCGS. Recently I submitted the coin* and unfortunately it came back as an MS-68. It seems like a pretty nice coin, and I thought it had a reasonable shot at MS-69 but it didn't make the grade. So, I figured I'd just have to wait it out for a PCGS-graded MS-69.
Well, one came available in a private party transaction and I bought it. I received the PCGS MS-69 coin today and it was pretty awful, not just "for the grade" but pretty awful in general. Pockmarks all across Liberty's face and some visible scuffs as well. In fact, the freshly-graded MS-68 I just had graded is much, much, much nicer!!
Frankly, I don't know what to do. The MS-69 isn't the quality I want for my collection. The MS-68 is acceptable but the grade is not. If I sent both coins to PCGS for reconsideration of the MS-68, would the discrepancies in grading weigh on their decision?
I can't see spending money on sight-unseen MS-69 coins any longer if there is no recourse. After all, sight-unseen trading was the entire justification for fee-paid third party grading in the first place.
Comments?
* - I cracked out the NGC MS-69 before submitting it raw. I guess that isn't technically a "crossover". (I've never submitted a "crossover" so I didn't know the nuances.)
Q: Are You Printing Money? Bernanke: Not Literally
I knew it would happen.
I knew it would happen.
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Comments
Something to consider is that maybe they're right. I know it's hard to accept that our own standards might be too extreme on some coins, but apparently it happens.
Take this 1841 seated half, PCGS MS65 CAC pop 1 finest graded, possibly finest known.
1841 half
This particular 1841 half I saw advertised on a major retailer's website around 2004...$5,000 as I recall. The price was very right for a pop 1. It didn't seem I could lose, even for a low end coin. I requested the coin sight unseen. Upon receipt the coin was "acceptable" as I knew I could make money on it. But, it had a lot of obverse chatter that bothered me. It was also the case that the MS64 pops on this coin had increased dramatically up this point. It was quite possible this was resubmitted 2-4X to get that grade, not a plus to me. After a few weeks/months I decided to flip the coin. I sold it to Heritage for a 20-25% profit, don't recall exactly what. In my mind it was a 64++ coin and that's what I was asking for it. An all there MS65 would have been worth $10K and up. Heritage auctioned the coin in 2004 and apparently made more than I did on it. It sold in 2015 for $11,750....still less than what I would expect a solid MS65 to be worth. I think it was ex-Gene Gardner.
12 years later it's still a pop 1 and now CAC'd. I was short of shocked to the see the CAC sticker. Maybe I was the one that had it "wrong" expecting too much for a MS65? It's just that I had a couple of 1840 halves in NGC MS65 at the time that were considerably better than this 1841...and both later stickered. If you look at the enlarged photos of the left obv of the 1841 you'll see what I was getting at. On the plus side, this 1841 has very original surfaces, good luster, and a very nicely rounded knee/leg area...something often missing on many pre-1850 halves and quarters. Sometimes we're too tough...and other times too loose. At least that's my take. I'd rather be like MJ and just be "too tough,"....surprises tend to be the upside that way.
1) Collectors continue to disregard the TPG's inherent reluctance to cross-at-grade coins that must be judged through plastic with portions hidden. If you want a one-step fair grade, crack and submit raw. Otherwise accept a conservative decision that, you hope, succeeds in a transfer of plastic. A truly fair assessment requires a subsequent regrade. That's the two-step process.
2) Reconsideration should only be used when the plastic and any stickers on it are critical. Remember, reconsideration suffers from the same conservative judgment as a cross. A decision has to be made through plastic that might conceal. And a premium fee applies. So use "regrade" when the holder doesn't matter. The coin is cracked, the grade is guaranteed, no premium applies and the graders will assess a raw coin for its best chance.
Lance.
Two thoughts:
1) Collectors continue to disregard the TPG's inherent reluctance to cross-at-grade coins that must be judged through plastic with portions hidden. If you want a one-step fair grade, crack and submit raw. Otherwise accept a conservative decision that, you hope, succeeds in a transfer of plastic. A truly fair assessment requires a subsequent regrade. That's the two-step process.
2) Reconsideration should only be used when the plastic and any stickers on it are critical. Remember, reconsideration suffers from the same conservative judgment as a cross. A decision has to be made through plastic that might conceal. And a premium fee applies. So use "regrade" when the holder doesn't matter. The coin is cracked, the grade is guaranteed, no premium applies and the graders will assess a raw coin for its best chance.
Lance.
This
Latin American Collection
Why would it be considered bad form to inquire, when there is a grade guarantee and when it's a fee paid service that is promoted to facilitate sight-unseen trading?
If anything, it's bad form to hide behind a label for a coin that is clearly graded wrong, as this seller is in the process of doing.
Here are the coins in question.
MS-68, freshly graded: the main distractions are a small cut on the chin and 3 light scrapes on one of the rays.
MS-69, as recently purchased in private party transaction: the distractions include scratches in the field by the motto and on the neck, a series of 5 gouges across both eyelids & brow, additional contact marks around Liberty's right eye, several scratches on several rays and the crown, and more marks on and next to the date. And abrasions/rub on the nose.
In my opinion, one of the coins should be downgraded and a refund issued, the other should be reconsidered. Tell me why this shouldn't happen.
I knew it would happen.
In theory they'll see the discrepancy and reconsider the MS 68 and send back the MS 69.
As always, just my two cents. Wondercoin.
If the price difference is small it would better to just wait until the right coin in the right grade is available and purchase it already in the holder. IMO
In this case ... about $25 maybe. PG shows it as a $50 difference. I crack 69's of these and put them in flips to save room in my safe deposit boxes. If I ever need to sell a 69, I'll pay the $5 to get it back into the holder.
Wabbit ... I'm giving the best advice I can here.
Wondercoin
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What does the reverse look like?
If the price difference is small it would better to just wait until the right coin in the right grade is available and purchase it already in the holder. IMO
That's what I just did! That's the problem. The right coin was supposed to be in the right holder already. Unless I've misunderstood the past 30 years, that's the justification for sight-unseen third party grading services in the first place.
What does the reverse look like?
Both are unremarkable. No problems on either.
Is Registry Collecting Fun?
As long as you don't get bled to death in the process, it's kinda fun. When it stops making sense, I'll do something else, in a heartbeat.
Once I play the next round, I'll know whether or not it's worth the trouble. Somewhere the twain shall meet.
MS-68 coin:
MS-69 coin:
I knew it would happen.
I once sent 3 better date Morgans, 2 should not have been in 66 holders and the one in 65 was far better. They came back the same after regrade. It was obvious what I was doing and the grading artists paid me back with a $200 charge for my education. Since it is an opinion, telling someone their opinion is wrong usually does not work.
Very well put. It's like waving a red flag at a bull.
If you require the combination of a nice coin in the "right" holder it's always easier to just buy it that way, especially if it's something as relatively common as modern bullion issues. Trying to get things into the "right" holder can be expensive, time-consuming, and frustrating. Sometimes it all works out, but more often than not it's just frustrating.
I once sent 3 better date Morgans, 2 should not have been in 66 holders and the one in 65 was far better. They came back the same after regrade. It was obvious what I was doing and the grading artists paid me back with a $200 charge for my education. Since it is an opinion, telling someone their opinion is wrong usually does not work.
Very well put. It's like waving a red flag at a bull.
Depending on the value difference between a 68 and a 69, you will have to decide if the re-grade or reconsideration cost is worth the effort.
If the price difference is small it would better to just wait until the right coin in the right grade is available and purchase it already in the holder. IMO
That's what I just did! That's the problem. The right coin was supposed to be in the right holder already. Unless I've misunderstood the past 30 years, that's the justification for sight-unseen third party grading services in the first place.
What does the reverse look like?
Both are unremarkable. No problems on either.
Is Registry Collecting Fun?
As long as you don't get bled to death in the process, it's kinda fun. When it stops making sense, I'll do something else, in a heartbeat.
Once I play the next round, I'll know whether or not it's worth the trouble. Somewhere the twain shall meet.
MS-68 coin:
MS-69 coin:
Grading outcomes are not an exact science. Not all 69's are created equal or even 68 vs 69.
If you can't see the coin in hand or see high quality photos of the coin then don't buy it.
I assume that if you saw those marks, that are plain to see your photo, you would not have bought the coin. And crossing a coin at any grade has the risk that it may downgrade.
Hey, I feel your pain as I'm sure a lot of others here have in the past. In the long run it's a lesson learned and you will become a much better collector going forward learning from past mistakes. I know I have made my share of them in the past.
I've posted the enlargements above. The whole point of this discussion is to get clarification for myself once I make the resubmissions. I'm already fairly clear on my path. I appreciate the different perspectives offered as well.
I knew it would happen.
I would not crack out and resubmit at this time, as has been mentioned in other threads the grades coming out of PCGS right now are ultra conservative especially for Moderns. I would sell off both coins and try and buy one that meets your standards for MS-69.
This seems reasonable to me