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Assistance with mint state grading?

I was looking at the Pogue 1821 Large size Capped Bust dime in MS64+. Yeah - I agree the eye appeal and toning are off the charts and that doesn't get into the technical grade, but in terms of grading this 64+, I personally think its a lock 65+. Can't figure out why not. Ignore the auction price because the price realized is solely based on eye appeal and toning. Yes, its CAC'd. Any thoughts why its only a 64+? Any assistance is appreciated.

FYI - I know the picture looks great but the coin is actually nicer in hand!

Sorry about the size fo the photo but I dont know how to make it smaller.



image
Easton Collection

Comments

  • Steve27Steve27 Posts: 13,274 ✭✭✭
    Whenever I see a coin graded MS64/64+ the first thing I look at is the strike, in this case the strike is better than the MS65 they show in their Photograde example (your coin has all 13 stars perfectly struck). Thus, I believe it's the scratches I've highlighted below:
    image
    "It's far easier to fight for principles, than to live up to them." Adlai Stevenson
  • BillJonesBillJones Posts: 34,053 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I saw limited number of the Pogue coins and came away with the impression that the grading was conservative. Once you note it, however, that scratch is significant once you get to the MS-64 and 65 levels.
    Retired dealer and avid collector of U.S. type coins, 19th century presidential campaign medalets and selected medals. In recent years I have been working on a set of British coins - at least one coin from each king or queen who issued pieces that are collectible. I am also collecting at least one coin for each Roman emperor from Julius Caesar to ... ?
  • BaleyBaley Posts: 22,661 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Scratched? SCRATCHED? Then it should not be in a straight graded holder at all, should it?

    image

    Liberty: Parent of Science & Industry

  • EastonCollectionEastonCollection Posts: 1,414 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Steve27- Your arrows are right on! The thin scratch on the reverse is only visible because the reverse prooflike surfaces are so reflective but they are visible. I would think that mark normally won't hold back the coin from a 65 or 65+. On the other hand, the obverse is perfect except that scratch at the arrow. That is more visible with the naked eye. This coin was in an old NGC 65 holder and NGC didn't dock that coin as much as PCGS. I think the PCGS graders thought it shouldn't be a 65 so they graded it a 64+. Still, I would hold that coin back from a 65 or 65+. I guess I rather have a more coin residing in a PCGS holder that is more conservatively graded.
    Easton Collection
  • sparky64sparky64 Posts: 7,036 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Great coin.

    Here's my thought.

    According to PCGS, amazing eye appealing toning can add 1 point to the technical grade.

    To me, this toning and eye appeal fits the bill..

    So....do you mean to tell me that this coin is technically a 63+?



    Bills impression about the limited ones he viewed being conservatively graded is telling.



    The scratches pointed out would seem to keep it out of the stratosphere grades but hmmmm?

    "If I say something in the woods and my wife isn't there to hear it.....am I still wrong?"

    My Washington Quarter Registry set...in progress

  • Sure looks like a beautiful coin! Wonderful/superb toning and a nice pedigree.



    I tend to agree with Steve27 about the scratches possibly holding it back. Can you describe the lustre? What I/we cannot determine by the photo is lustre - Is it possible lustre could be lacking just a bit? Maybe the surfaces are a "tiny bit reflective" and not as lustrous??? ("which I actually doubt" knowing this piece was hand selected for Pogue. It's just something I cannot really see by this photo).



    Bottom line, I guess it didn't bother Pogue to own this coin?
    Persuing choice countermarked coinage on 2 reales.

    Enjoyed numismatic conversations with Eric P. Newman, Dave Akers, Jules Reiver, David Davis, Russ Logan, John McCloskey, Kirk Gorman, W. David Perkins...
  • EastonCollectionEastonCollection Posts: 1,414 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Sparky64- I never felt high eye appeal or toning added to the technical grade of a coin. Coins with high eye appeal or exceptional toning cost more and in some cases considerably more than price guides. I didn't think the scratches were so sever to keep it out of 65 or 65+ grade.
    Easton Collection
  • EastonCollectionEastonCollection Posts: 1,414 ✭✭✭✭✭
    1Bustcollector- I agree with you that the scratches did hold the coin back in grade, but i guess my question is by how much should PCGS hold its back. The luster is full and the fields is highly reflective.
    Easton Collection
  • topstuftopstuf Posts: 14,803 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Originally posted by: Baley

    Scratched? SCRATCHED? Then it should not be in a straight graded holder at all, should it?

    image




    NO! It should be in the 2x2 junk box or a bid board. image
  • topstuftopstuf Posts: 14,803 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I also know for a fact that eraser marks will not prevent a 66 grade. image
  • goldengolden Posts: 9,656 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Originally posted by: BillJones
    I saw limited number of the Pogue coins and came away with the impression that the grading was conservative. Once you note it, however, that scratch is significant once you get to the MS-64 and 65 levels.


    image
  • lkeigwinlkeigwin Posts: 16,892 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Time and again we see conservative crosses. And then those coins bumped after regrades.



    If it were mine and I felt PCGS was conservative I'd resubmit it. Nothing to lose except a little money on grading fees and shipping.



    It's a gorgeous dime!

    Lance.



    P.S. To quote PCGS, Amazing eye appeal can add up to a full point to the "technical" grade.
  • roadrunnerroadrunner Posts: 28,303 ✭✭✭✭✭
    You'd need more issues than what we've mentioned to keep that from MS65. Could be some other defects not noted like wipe lines, hairlines, etc. There's a slight line going vertical on Liberty's face. 1 or more of those along with other defects would be enough to keep it from a technical 65. Maybe the luster is a tad weak on some part of the coin? Strike and eye appeal don't hold it back. The coin merits MS65 money so doesn't really matter if it's graded 64+ or 65. I think NGC had it right years ago.



    PCGS tends to be considerably tougher on choice/gem bust coins than NGC. Look at how hard it is to make a PCGS MS65 CBH vs. NGC. It's no different with bust dimes and quarters. I recall in Dec 2008 I found a pair of NGC old fatty capped bust dimes graded MS64. I was 100% sure one of them would go 65 at PCGS if not 66. The other one I felt would at least cross. Boy, was I surprised. They wouldn't even cross the "nicest" one (MS66 surfaces with a tad of strike weakness). And the one I felt was only a shot coin they crossed to 64. I ended up losing money on those "fresh" 2 coins. I'm sure since then both were cracked out and at least one of them resides in someone's MS65 holder today.
    Barbarous Relic No More, LSCC -GoldSeek--shadow stats--SafeHaven--321gold
  • desslokdesslok Posts: 310 ✭✭✭
    I'm a non-American coin collector, and nowhere near the level of expertise of the other members of this board, but here's my humble 2 cents opinion:

    This coin was in an old NGC 65 holder


    That pretty much explains it, doesn't it? NGC 65 -> submitted in slab -> PCGS gave it a 64+. Quick and easy, and PCGS gets the credit for being "stricter".

    Had it been submitted raw, it could probably have gotten anything from MS64 to MS66, depending on the day and the grader.

  • EastonCollectionEastonCollection Posts: 1,414 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Roadrunner - I agree with you that it should be graded 65 or possibly 65+. The scratches that are there are really not that terrible to hold back from gem. The luster is all there. CAC has green stickered the coin and will send back to CAC to see if he will gold CAC the holder. Keep you posted. I truly believe its solid Gem grade.
    Easton Collection
  • LoveMyLibertyLoveMyLiberty Posts: 1,784 ✭✭✭
    Those interested may want to view the large images

    of this coin on CoinFacts.



    PCGS has only graded nine of these higher, eight at 65

    and one at 66.



    I tried to include the description of the surfaces stated

    at the auction of the Pogue Collection part III,

    but got an error code 113, what ever that is, & gave up!
    My Type Set

    R.I.P. Bear image
  • roadrunnerroadrunner Posts: 28,303 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Originally posted by: EastonCollection

    Roadrunner - I agree with you that it should be graded 65 or possibly 65+. The scratches that are there are really not that terrible to hold back from gem. The luster is all there. CAC has green stickered the coin and will send back to CAC to see if he will gold CAC the holder. Keep you posted. I truly believe its solid Gem grade.




    A goldie on that kind of coin has astronomical odds....like 1,000 to 1. I don't think JA will upgrade the sticker as he would probably have the same concerns with those scratches, etc. that some PCGS graders did.



    To date, CAC has gold stickered 2 coins out of all capped bust dimes, quarters, and half dollars reviewed in MS65 or higher. And in the large size dimes and quarters, not a single coin over MS63. That would be a special coin.





    Barbarous Relic No More, LSCC -GoldSeek--shadow stats--SafeHaven--321gold
  • lkeigwinlkeigwin Posts: 16,892 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Originally posted by: LoveMyLiberty

    Those interested may want to view the large images

    of this coin on CoinFacts.



    PCGS has only graded nine of these higher, eight at 65

    and one at 66.



    I tried to include the description of the surfaces stated

    at the auction of the Pogue Collection part III,

    but got an error code 113, what ever that is, & gave up!




    "Considerable reflectivity remains in the fields of both sides, offering an attractive backdrop for the well-detailed devices. The toning is dramatic and distinctive, showing pale blue tones on the right side of the obverse, while the center and left side is dominated by peach and gold and the date is surrounded by deep violet. A circle of rose and peach centered on the eagle’s beak radiates into halos of pastel blue and pale champagne over the silvery periphery on the reverse. The denticles are fully struck on both sides and each star has its center, though some trivial softness is present at the absolute centers. Some light obverse hairlines are detected under proper light. A short scratch extends from the denticles below star 1, and a thin, nearly vertical hairline is present on the reverse beneath RICA. A delicate die crack connects the upper two arrowheads to the lower right serif of the final A in AMERICA, and an even lighter crack joins the lower left serif of that letter to the lower right side of the adjacent C."
  • roadrunnerroadrunner Posts: 28,303 ✭✭✭✭✭
    When you try to copy, quote, etc. that 113 error comes up at times. I get it a lot when quoting a previous post. I try to remember to just copy and re-paste rather than quote. So you'll save some time if you copy to your clip board first. Just in case you lose it.
    Barbarous Relic No More, LSCC -GoldSeek--shadow stats--SafeHaven--321gold
  • NicNic Posts: 3,380 ✭✭✭✭✭
  • roadrunnerroadrunner Posts: 28,303 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Originally posted by: Nic

    Hairlines




    Probably. 19th century choice/gem bust type coins that come this wildly toned got that way because they were dipped/lightly cleaned and placed in an active toning environment, like an album. Hairlines were often the result.
    Barbarous Relic No More, LSCC -GoldSeek--shadow stats--SafeHaven--321gold
  • EastonCollectionEastonCollection Posts: 1,414 ✭✭✭✭✭
    The hairlines are so very slight and you need a strong glass to see. Because the surfaces are so reflective, they tend to show hairlines. If the surfaces were flat, then the hairlines would need a high powered glass to see.
    Easton Collection
  • breakdownbreakdown Posts: 2,149 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Give me 64+ coins like that all day over the blazing white 65/66's all day. Particularly with 19th century coins. We can try to dissect it from photos but with a dime, who knows? I always find smaller coins like this harder to grade in the first place.

    "Look up, old boy, and see what you get." -William Bonney.

  • EastonCollectionEastonCollection Posts: 1,414 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Originally posted by: breakdown

    Give me 64+ coins like that all day over the blazing white 65/66's all day. Particularly with 19th century coins. We can try to dissect it from photos but with a dime, who knows? I always find smaller coins like this harder to grade in the first place.




    thats how I felt when I bought the coin!
    Easton Collection
  • SoCalBigMarkSoCalBigMark Posts: 2,791 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Is that a staple scratch going up and down on the face?
  • EastonCollectionEastonCollection Posts: 1,414 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I believe that scratch that you are referring to is a raised die line. To difficult to tell from the photo.
    Easton Collection
  • MoldnutMoldnut Posts: 3,100 ✭✭✭✭
    Enjoy it for what it is. It's a beautiful coin that will speak for itself no matter what the holder says IMO.
    Derek

    EAC 6024
  • hchcoinhchcoin Posts: 4,829 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Beautiful coin
  • EastonCollectionEastonCollection Posts: 1,414 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Moldnut & hchcoin- thank you for your compliments on the coin.



    I bought the coin as this is the flashest and prettiest Capped Bust dime that I ever saw in over 15 years of collecting CBD, so I love it. The technical grade is really second to its great eye appeal and toning.

    Having said that, I do believe its a possible upgrade and yeah it does have its marks just like every coin from that era. I don't have any plans having that coin regraded as I like the PCGS special label that I don't want to lose. My goal for this thread, is have a conversation with CAC to see if he agrees with me that it should get a Gold sticker as opposed to a green bean.
    Easton Collection
  • PQueuePQueue Posts: 901 ✭✭✭
    RE:
    My goal for this thread, is have a conversation with CAC to see if he agrees with me that it should get a Gold sticker as opposed to a green bean.

    What is the price guide difference between 64 and 65? 3X?

    When was the last time you saw a Gold Bean on a high value coin?
  • EastonCollectionEastonCollection Posts: 1,414 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Originally posted by: PQueue

    RE:

    My goal for this thread, is have a conversation with CAC to see if he agrees with me that it should get a Gold sticker as opposed to a green bean.



    What is the price guide difference between 64 and 65? 3X?



    When was the last time you saw a Gold Bean on a high value coin?




    PQuene - the price differential goes from $6k in 64 to $15k in 65. also, saw a fari amount of gold CAC on expensive coins i.e 1823 capped bust quarter in AU58- finest known. Not sure the point you are making here but CAC does give out gold when they feel it is warranted.

    Easton Collection
  • NicNic Posts: 3,380 ✭✭✭✭✭
    No matter what, she is beautiful.
  • OldIndianNutKaseOldIndianNutKase Posts: 2,700 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I think the scratch and the lack of a great strike have limited the grade. I have a number of great toned coins in my collection that are all 64-64+ and like this coin have great eye appeal in hand. I think the scratch is an issue and to many the coin cannot be 65 or 65+ because of that.

    OINK

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