Assistance with mint state grading?
EastonCollection
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I was looking at the Pogue 1821 Large size Capped Bust dime in MS64+. Yeah - I agree the eye appeal and toning are off the charts and that doesn't get into the technical grade, but in terms of grading this 64+, I personally think its a lock 65+. Can't figure out why not. Ignore the auction price because the price realized is solely based on eye appeal and toning. Yes, its CAC'd. Any thoughts why its only a 64+? Any assistance is appreciated.
FYI - I know the picture looks great but the coin is actually nicer in hand!
Sorry about the size fo the photo but I dont know how to make it smaller.
FYI - I know the picture looks great but the coin is actually nicer in hand!
Sorry about the size fo the photo but I dont know how to make it smaller.
Easton Collection
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Comments
Liberty: Parent of Science & Industry
Here's my thought.
According to PCGS, amazing eye appealing toning can add 1 point to the technical grade.
To me, this toning and eye appeal fits the bill..
So....do you mean to tell me that this coin is technically a 63+?
Bills impression about the limited ones he viewed being conservatively graded is telling.
The scratches pointed out would seem to keep it out of the stratosphere grades but hmmmm?
"If I say something in the woods and my wife isn't there to hear it.....am I still wrong?"
My Washington Quarter Registry set...in progress
I tend to agree with Steve27 about the scratches possibly holding it back. Can you describe the lustre? What I/we cannot determine by the photo is lustre - Is it possible lustre could be lacking just a bit? Maybe the surfaces are a "tiny bit reflective" and not as lustrous??? ("which I actually doubt" knowing this piece was hand selected for Pogue. It's just something I cannot really see by this photo).
Bottom line, I guess it didn't bother Pogue to own this coin?
Enjoyed numismatic conversations with Eric P. Newman, Dave Akers, Jules Reiver, David Davis, Russ Logan, John McCloskey, Kirk Gorman, W. David Perkins...
Scratched? SCRATCHED? Then it should not be in a straight graded holder at all, should it?
NO! It should be in the 2x2 junk box or a bid board.
I saw limited number of the Pogue coins and came away with the impression that the grading was conservative. Once you note it, however, that scratch is significant once you get to the MS-64 and 65 levels.
If it were mine and I felt PCGS was conservative I'd resubmit it. Nothing to lose except a little money on grading fees and shipping.
It's a gorgeous dime!
Lance.
P.S. To quote PCGS, Amazing eye appeal can add up to a full point to the "technical" grade.
PCGS tends to be considerably tougher on choice/gem bust coins than NGC. Look at how hard it is to make a PCGS MS65 CBH vs. NGC. It's no different with bust dimes and quarters. I recall in Dec 2008 I found a pair of NGC old fatty capped bust dimes graded MS64. I was 100% sure one of them would go 65 at PCGS if not 66. The other one I felt would at least cross. Boy, was I surprised. They wouldn't even cross the "nicest" one (MS66 surfaces with a tad of strike weakness). And the one I felt was only a shot coin they crossed to 64. I ended up losing money on those "fresh" 2 coins. I'm sure since then both were cracked out and at least one of them resides in someone's MS65 holder today.
That pretty much explains it, doesn't it? NGC 65 -> submitted in slab -> PCGS gave it a 64+. Quick and easy, and PCGS gets the credit for being "stricter".
Had it been submitted raw, it could probably have gotten anything from MS64 to MS66, depending on the day and the grader.
of this coin on CoinFacts.
PCGS has only graded nine of these higher, eight at 65
and one at 66.
I tried to include the description of the surfaces stated
at the auction of the Pogue Collection part III,
but got an error code 113, what ever that is, & gave up!
R.I.P. Bear
Roadrunner - I agree with you that it should be graded 65 or possibly 65+. The scratches that are there are really not that terrible to hold back from gem. The luster is all there. CAC has green stickered the coin and will send back to CAC to see if he will gold CAC the holder. Keep you posted. I truly believe its solid Gem grade.
A goldie on that kind of coin has astronomical odds....like 1,000 to 1. I don't think JA will upgrade the sticker as he would probably have the same concerns with those scratches, etc. that some PCGS graders did.
To date, CAC has gold stickered 2 coins out of all capped bust dimes, quarters, and half dollars reviewed in MS65 or higher. And in the large size dimes and quarters, not a single coin over MS63. That would be a special coin.
Those interested may want to view the large images
of this coin on CoinFacts.
PCGS has only graded nine of these higher, eight at 65
and one at 66.
I tried to include the description of the surfaces stated
at the auction of the Pogue Collection part III,
but got an error code 113, what ever that is, & gave up!
"Considerable reflectivity remains in the fields of both sides, offering an attractive backdrop for the well-detailed devices. The toning is dramatic and distinctive, showing pale blue tones on the right side of the obverse, while the center and left side is dominated by peach and gold and the date is surrounded by deep violet. A circle of rose and peach centered on the eagle’s beak radiates into halos of pastel blue and pale champagne over the silvery periphery on the reverse. The denticles are fully struck on both sides and each star has its center, though some trivial softness is present at the absolute centers. Some light obverse hairlines are detected under proper light. A short scratch extends from the denticles below star 1, and a thin, nearly vertical hairline is present on the reverse beneath RICA. A delicate die crack connects the upper two arrowheads to the lower right serif of the final A in AMERICA, and an even lighter crack joins the lower left serif of that letter to the lower right side of the adjacent C."
My 1866 Philly Mint Set
Hairlines
Probably. 19th century choice/gem bust type coins that come this wildly toned got that way because they were dipped/lightly cleaned and placed in an active toning environment, like an album. Hairlines were often the result.
"Look up, old boy, and see what you get." -William Bonney.
Give me 64+ coins like that all day over the blazing white 65/66's all day. Particularly with 19th century coins. We can try to dissect it from photos but with a dime, who knows? I always find smaller coins like this harder to grade in the first place.
thats how I felt when I bought the coin!
EAC 6024
I bought the coin as this is the flashest and prettiest Capped Bust dime that I ever saw in over 15 years of collecting CBD, so I love it. The technical grade is really second to its great eye appeal and toning.
Having said that, I do believe its a possible upgrade and yeah it does have its marks just like every coin from that era. I don't have any plans having that coin regraded as I like the PCGS special label that I don't want to lose. My goal for this thread, is have a conversation with CAC to see if he agrees with me that it should get a Gold sticker as opposed to a green bean.
My goal for this thread, is have a conversation with CAC to see if he agrees with me that it should get a Gold sticker as opposed to a green bean.
What is the price guide difference between 64 and 65? 3X?
When was the last time you saw a Gold Bean on a high value coin?
RE:
My goal for this thread, is have a conversation with CAC to see if he agrees with me that it should get a Gold sticker as opposed to a green bean.
What is the price guide difference between 64 and 65? 3X?
When was the last time you saw a Gold Bean on a high value coin?
PQuene - the price differential goes from $6k in 64 to $15k in 65. also, saw a fari amount of gold CAC on expensive coins i.e 1823 capped bust quarter in AU58- finest known. Not sure the point you are making here but CAC does give out gold when they feel it is warranted.
My 1866 Philly Mint Set
OINK