Home U.S. Coin Forum

Jefferson Nickel Variety Of The Week: 1941-S Inverted S (FS-503)

BigDowgieBigDowgie Posts: 1,749 ✭✭✭✭
Jefferson Nickel Variety Of The Week: 1941-S Inverted S (FS-503)

This variety has been interesting from the start. Once the first few were attributed by PCGS, pictures started surfacing with with different Mint Mark locations. Cherry Pickers Guide clearly identifies the Mint Mark location very tightly tucked in the corner of MONTICELLO. I'm not sure which grader doesn't have very good visual recognition skills, but now there are two! In the official Inverted S, along with the proper Mint Mark location, you will also see several die scratches along the rim. An incorrectly attributed Inverted S Mint Mark is show at the bottom. I'm still trying to stretch my imagination to see how that one is inverted?

The grand finale comes when the Cherry Picker Crew (Mr. Wiles?) insisted the "S" is really not inverted, it is simply a misaligned die punch where the Mint Mark was punched at an angle causing the appearance of an upside-down Mint Mark. I don't see how that Mint Mark punch is angled, but what do I know! I respectfully disagree with the scholars on their "Debunking" of this popular variety, as well as PCGS attribution of several incorrect Inverted S's!

To each their own, but I would not purchase an incorrectly attributed Inverted S even if there was an MS76+FS offered to me for $100! Well maybe I would and send it back to PCGS to get into a regular 1941-S holder! I need this for my regular Business Strike Set!

image

imageimage

image

Comments

  • DIMEMANDIMEMAN Posts: 22,403 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Neat variety and a beautiful coin. Keep'em coming Big Dog!!!
  • rickoricko Posts: 98,724 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Great pictures and thanks for the information.... Cheers, RickO
  • keetskeets Posts: 25,351 ✭✭✭✭✭
    hey pooch-boyimage, why don't you post a picture of the standard "S" MM of the era next to the inverted MM for a comparison. the "tails" of the top and bottom of the MM are different and the curve leading to the tail is different, different enough that there should be no reason for dispute from the fine CPG folks. your coin's MM is 100% no discussion inverted.



    nice coin, I shall endeavor to find one to post!! image I need something to occupy my slack time at work.
  • BigDowgieBigDowgie Posts: 1,749 ✭✭✭✭
    Good call keets, let's compare a couple Mint Marks close-up. Mr. Wiles explained to me a while back that all 1941-S Mint Marks are the same and that the top and bottom curves and serifs are symmetrical. Therefore, there is no way to distinguish if the Mint Mark is punched upside-down. The regular S below is from my MS67FS example. It does not look symmetrical to me. You decide!


    imageimage
  • johnny9434johnny9434 Posts: 27,411 ✭✭✭✭✭
    nice coin image
  • DIMEMANDIMEMAN Posts: 22,403 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Originally posted by: BigDowgie
    Jefferson Nickel Variety Of The Week: 1941-S Inverted S (FS-503)

    This variety has been interesting from the start. Once the first few were attributed by PCGS, pictures started surfacing with with different Mint Mark locations. Cherry Pickers Guide clearly identifies the Mint Mark location very tightly tucked in the corner of MONTICELLO. I'm not sure which grader doesn't have very good visual recognition skills, but now there are two! In the official Inverted S, along with the proper Mint Mark location, you will also see several die scratches along the rim. An incorrectly attributed Inverted S Mint Mark is show at the bottom. I'm still trying to stretch my imagination to see how that one is inverted?

    The grand finale comes when the Cherry Picker Crew (Mr. Wiles?) insisted the "S" is really not inverted, it is simply a misaligned die punch where the Mint Mark was punched at an angle causing the appearance of an upside-down Mint Mark. I don't see how that Mint Mark punch is angled, but what do I know! I respectfully disagree with the scholars on their "Debunking" of this popular variety, as well as PCGS attribution of several incorrect Inverted S's!

    To each their own, but I would not purchase an incorrectly attributed Inverted S even if there was an MS76+FS offered to me for $100! Well maybe I would and send it back to PCGS to get into a regular 1941-S holder! I need this for my regular Business Strike Set!

    image

    imageimage

    image


    I'm glad you brought up the location of the MM on this variety. It is a whole different animal than the RPM which is two different punches and thus would never be in the same location as another RPM. Whereas the Inverted MM is a regular MM just punched upside down...there can several different locations of this variety.

    Case in point I have 3 different 1941-S large S Dimes. They are all the large S, but different locations and one has a die gouge that the others don't have. So there are at least 3 different 1941-S large S varieties. There could be more...I am always looking.

    What would be neat is a large S inverted and repunched making it a 3 in 1 variety.
  • BigDowgieBigDowgie Posts: 1,749 ✭✭✭✭
    DIMEMAN you raise a point that I've discussed with a couple owners of the "new location" mint mark Inverted S. While true, an Inverted S is an Inverted S no matter where it is located. However, on this one PCGS strayed from their practice of attributing the Cherry Pickers Variety. The picture in the Guide is pretty clear, but PCGS seemed to arbitrarily attribute a second Inverted S. I'm not aware of any publication or website that describes or confirms a second location of the Inverted S. I guess I'm just one of those purists when it comes to my varieties.
  • DIMEMANDIMEMAN Posts: 22,403 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Originally posted by: BigDowgie
    DIMEMAN you raise a point that I've discussed with a couple owners of the "new location" mint mark Inverted S. While true, an Inverted S is an Inverted S no matter where it is located. However, on this one PCGS strayed from their practice of attributing the Cherry Pickers Variety. The picture in the Guide is pretty clear, but PCGS seemed to arbitrarily attribute a second Inverted S. I'm not aware of any publication or website that describes or confirms a second location of the Inverted S. I guess I'm just one of those purists when it comes to my varieties.


    I guess we are on opposite sides of the fence on this topic. To me it doesn't matter where the S is as long as it is Inverted.

    This actually gives me more varieties (3) on the 41-S large S and I like more varieties.
  • LanceNewmanOCCLanceNewmanOCC Posts: 19,999 ✭✭✭✭✭

    has there been and consensus since this thread?

    i'm in the camp that there are at least 2 inverted mm positions on the 41-s. mostly this is formed by the fact i was just going through 41-s 5c years ago and the higher one jumped out at me so i had no bias or influence. finding high-grade coins that have been imaged with great mm images has been a challenge and i've only ever found circ versions say, below xf.

    i'm not really interested in did the TPG get it right with any one coin but looking for info about whether the higher positioned one has been officially accepted or not and why. t.i.a.

    my hand is slightly forced as again i've found a small handful of one i think are the high position inverted. sold a few many years ago fwiw.

    if this conversation goes somewhere and needs be, i'll post images of a few, at least the best images i can.

    <--- look what's behind the mask! - cool link 1/NO ~ 2/NNP ~ 3/NNC ~ 4/CF ~ 5/PG ~ 6/Cert ~ 7/NGC 7a/NGC pop~ 8/NGCF ~ 9/HA archives ~ 10/PM ~ 11/NM ~ 12/ANACS cert ~ 13/ANACS pop - report fakes 1/ACEF ~ report fakes/thefts 1/NCIS - Numi-Classes SS ~ Bass ~ Transcribed Docs NNP - clashed coins - error training - V V mm styles -

  • yspsalesyspsales Posts: 2,097 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Cool coin.

    Informative thread.

    Anyone else do a double take thinking who let Dimeman back on the forum? Haha

    Miss him.

    BST: KindaNewish (3/21/21), WQuarterFreddie (3/30/21), Meltdown (4/6/21), DBSTrader2 (5/5/21) AKA- unclemonkey on Blow Out

  • bolivarshagnastybolivarshagnasty Posts: 7,348 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @yspsales said:
    Cool coin.

    Informative thread.

    Anyone else do a double take thinking who let Dimeman back on the forum? Haha

    Miss him.

    The inverted S was debunked and no longer part of the "Complete Varieties" Jefferson sets. Not sure who debunked it but it was pulled by PCGS in their Registry.

  • LanceNewmanOCCLanceNewmanOCC Posts: 19,999 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited March 1, 2021 2:43PM

    @bolivarshagnasty said:
    The inverted S was debunked and no longer part of the "Complete Varieties" Jefferson sets. Not sure who debunked it but it was pulled by PCGS in their Registry.

    wow. i didn't know it went THAT far. i take you at your word but i'm doing a pop check just because i recommend people do that so many times and i'm a bit taken aback.

    tyvm for an update. if i read this before, ive simply completely gapped it.

    edited to add: it is at least in the pcgs pops, for now.

    <--- look what's behind the mask! - cool link 1/NO ~ 2/NNP ~ 3/NNC ~ 4/CF ~ 5/PG ~ 6/Cert ~ 7/NGC 7a/NGC pop~ 8/NGCF ~ 9/HA archives ~ 10/PM ~ 11/NM ~ 12/ANACS cert ~ 13/ANACS pop - report fakes 1/ACEF ~ report fakes/thefts 1/NCIS - Numi-Classes SS ~ Bass ~ Transcribed Docs NNP - clashed coins - error training - V V mm styles -

  • BigDowgieBigDowgie Posts: 1,749 ✭✭✭✭

    Wow, this is an oldie, but a goodie! Yes unfortunately, the variety god (James Wiles) deemed this as not inverted, but punched into the master die at an angle, which produced the appearance of being inverted. I happen to disagree, as the top and bottom serifs are different. When looking at the pictures above, only one conclusion is clear to me.

    PCGS still keeps the pops going for this ex-variety. I even think they will still attribute it and have it listed in the "all variety" set, but it does not carry any points in the sets.

    As far as the "High" Inverted S, which is the only FS example shown in the pops above, I don't agree with. I'd like to see various examples to better assess the inversion as it relates to the top and bottom serifs. Lance, post away!

  • bolivarshagnastybolivarshagnasty Posts: 7,348 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @BigDowgie said:
    Wow, this is an oldie, but a goodie! Yes unfortunately, the variety god (James Wiles) deemed this as not inverted, but punched into the master die at an angle, which produced the appearance of being inverted. I happen to disagree, as the top and bottom serifs are different. When looking at the pictures above, only one conclusion is clear to me.

    PCGS still keeps the pops going for this ex-variety. I even think they will still attribute it and have it listed in the "all variety" set, but it does not carry any points in the sets.

    As far as the "High" Inverted S, which is the only FS example shown in the pops above, I don't agree with. I'd like to see various examples to better assess the inversion as it relates to the top and bottom serifs. Lance, post away!

    How did James Wiles lose his gig with CONECA? The Variety Vista site states he no longer is the official attributor for them. Any insight?

  • LanceNewmanOCCLanceNewmanOCC Posts: 19,999 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited March 7, 2021 2:17PM

    @BigDowgie said:
    Lance, post away!

    .
    ok. i'll post my mediocre info but no matter what, i have no say in the matter.

    i'll start with this: LINK & LINK & LINK - High S Examples

    i'll post the links here for convenience and posterity. will look at other series with inverted S.

    anyone want to assist for the list of other denom inverted S mm? s over s in any orientation not accepted. need to see stand-alone mm.

    1946-s 1c
    1941-s 5c
    1942-s 10c
    1928-s 25c
    1945-s 25c?
    1909-s 50c
    1944-s 50c
    1968-s 50c

    32819394 - no TV
    32819384 - no TV - certs are close together, probably a big submission of these. lucky dogs.
    32819387
    32819392
    32819386
    32819391
    32819389
    32819383

    36327225 HA coin. not enough resolution.

    18106324 OP coin no TV

    <--- look what's behind the mask! - cool link 1/NO ~ 2/NNP ~ 3/NNC ~ 4/CF ~ 5/PG ~ 6/Cert ~ 7/NGC 7a/NGC pop~ 8/NGCF ~ 9/HA archives ~ 10/PM ~ 11/NM ~ 12/ANACS cert ~ 13/ANACS pop - report fakes 1/ACEF ~ report fakes/thefts 1/NCIS - Numi-Classes SS ~ Bass ~ Transcribed Docs NNP - clashed coins - error training - V V mm styles -

  • LanceNewmanOCCLanceNewmanOCC Posts: 19,999 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited March 5, 2021 2:24PM

    @bolivarshagnasty said:
    How did James Wiles lose his gig with CONECA? The Variety Vista site states he no longer is the official attributor for them. Any insight?

    .
    pretty sure it is the first i'm hearing of it.

    amended my post as i see the statement on the homepage now. thanks ;)

    for anyone wanting attribution services, he advises to use their forum: FORUM LINK

    i'm probably late to the party but if an official thread hasn't been made on this topic, one probably ought to be.

    <--- look what's behind the mask! - cool link 1/NO ~ 2/NNP ~ 3/NNC ~ 4/CF ~ 5/PG ~ 6/Cert ~ 7/NGC 7a/NGC pop~ 8/NGCF ~ 9/HA archives ~ 10/PM ~ 11/NM ~ 12/ANACS cert ~ 13/ANACS pop - report fakes 1/ACEF ~ report fakes/thefts 1/NCIS - Numi-Classes SS ~ Bass ~ Transcribed Docs NNP - clashed coins - error training - V V mm styles -

  • LanceNewmanOCCLanceNewmanOCC Posts: 19,999 ✭✭✭✭✭

    well i've given it a pretty good effort and i'm not sure i can come to any conclusions on this one. i can see why it was de-listed if it truly was. i'd have to see several examples in-hand and match up other diagnostics to ensure the coins i'm comparing come from the same dies. it appears that coins in holders may not match up from same dies. the low so-called inverted is pretty much a no-brainer as being so far different positioned than all the others inverted or not.

    the high one can get a bit questionable from images and perhaps even in-hand which is probably why i've seen some supposed variations. for now i lay the gauntlet down. i think i've determined several of the ones i thought were inverted in my hoard are probably not which is why they've been sitting until i could make a confident and accurate decision.

    i've removed a lot of images form this comp to just keep it clean and simple and for anyone whom may find it useful.

    <--- look what's behind the mask! - cool link 1/NO ~ 2/NNP ~ 3/NNC ~ 4/CF ~ 5/PG ~ 6/Cert ~ 7/NGC 7a/NGC pop~ 8/NGCF ~ 9/HA archives ~ 10/PM ~ 11/NM ~ 12/ANACS cert ~ 13/ANACS pop - report fakes 1/ACEF ~ report fakes/thefts 1/NCIS - Numi-Classes SS ~ Bass ~ Transcribed Docs NNP - clashed coins - error training - V V mm styles -

Leave a Comment

BoldItalicStrikethroughOrdered listUnordered list
Emoji
Image
Align leftAlign centerAlign rightToggle HTML viewToggle full pageToggle lights
Drop image/file