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Is Supercoin Right? NGC-MS68 worth PCGS-MS67

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  • Your bust half is greysheet bid 1050 for MS63 and 2320 in MS64. Of course this is for PCGS coinsimage

    Now if we apply the "30% rule" and assume it a 30% premium of the lower grade then your NGC in MS64 is worth about 1365.00.

    Where would you like the check sent image
  • IrishMikeIrishMike Posts: 7,737 ✭✭✭


    << <i>Mitch and Mark:

    Believe it or not I only own 2 NGC coins. The first is a somewhat common date Lincoln from the 40s (not a steel, and don't think its a shell case) in RD67. Forgot the date, but it seems to be worth about $100 in a PCGS holder. Paid $50 a month or two ago. Don't know the value of a common date PCGS MS66 RD Lincoln from the 40s, but about 30% under $50 seems ballpark.

    The second is a nicely toned common date type capped bust half in MS64. Not sure of the value of either an NGC64 or a PCGS MS63. Maybe you guys could let me know vs the 30% standard.

    Greg >>

    Greg I don't think the slab makes much price difference in bust halves. The two seemed to be selling very close together.
  • Typetone:

    You can find good value information at www.heritagecoin.com. Look for the auction archives and search for your coin, probably even find the same date too. Mike is correct, there doesn't seem to be much difference in these coins, oddly enough even the ICGs were selling in the same ballpark.

    Mark
  • wondercoinwondercoin Posts: 16,972 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Greg: What do you want for that "rotten, overgraded" Bust half in the wrong holder? I'm in the bidding, sight-unseen myself image

    So much for the "30% theory" on virtually any pre-1965 Mint State NGC coin! image Wondercoin.

    Please visit my website at www.wondercoins.com and my ebay auctions under my user name www.wondercoin.com.
  • Mitch

    Maybe you should do a POLL on this form the results of this thread it looks like SUPERCOIN is 70% right imageand WONDERCOIN is 30% wrong image and that equals a smooth 100% image Sorry Pal if its not in a PCGS holder its not a 68image
    FORMER # 1 NOW # 3 ON ALL TIME FINEST CLAD QUARTER COLLECTION

    PCGS THE ONLY WAY TO GO

    Ed
  • Actually ED , since there is no standard even within PCGS one could argue that the PCGS 68 might be an MS69 that has been undergradedimage
  • BearBear Posts: 18,953 ✭✭✭
    I listen to one argument and agree, then I listen to the other side and agree, sometimes I feel just like a ping pong ball.
    There once was a place called
    Camelotimage
  • supercoinsupercoin Posts: 2,323
    Sigh... I now realize what the problem is, Wondercoin is arguing this like a member of his previous profession, trying to win the case at all costs for his client (the cent). Good lawyering, perhaps, but not so good for insight or staying on topic.

    Let me summarize for the court:

    WC: Pricing a pop 1/0 NGC MS68RD at 30% over a PCGS MS67RD is ridiculous.

    SC: Perhaps what's foolish is the 2000% premium for a PCGS MS68RD.

    WC: Stick to the issue [HA! Very funny in retrospect! Supercoin snickers, gets evil eye from Judge.]

    SC: You're justifying the price based on a PCGS 68RD, not a PCGS 67RD, so questioning the PCGS 68RD price is reasonable. [Pretty graphs score big points with jurors]

    WC: Charts are invalid, my coin could have been a PCGS 68RD at the time it was graded. Besides, I have a deal in the works for that coin, so it's moot. [Translated: I can see I'm not winning this argument, time to switch topics again.]

    SC: So if you get to value your coin based on past PCGS standards, how about some of my proofs that "coulda been" PCGS PR70s.

    WC: Stick to the issue [HOO HOO! It's funnier every time!]

    (Court in recess for Laker's game.)

    SC: The PR70 analogy is valid, inferior coins with the right labels sell for huge premiums all the time. Which leads a reasonable person to believe those label prices are inflated, not that the other coins are undervalued. Crack out one of those label-dependent coins and it becomes obvious.

    WC: I could list coin after coin in the pop 1/0 NGC holder that commanded fabulous money. [Note: list of such coins as evidence not submitted to court]

    SC: Not when it's a coin such as a 1950-S Lincoln that derives virtually all of it's value from condition-rarity, give it a try. Find a buyer for your coin yet? [Asked snidely]

    WC: [Seizes on issue] Yes, suckahh! [Unfortunately judge does not compel him to reveal price]

    WC continues: Silly notion some suggested that a classic NGC coin (pre-1965 for these purposes) should sell for around the PCGS grade under price.

    SC: Since when is pre-1965 classic to you? [Past court transcripts show Wondercoin repeatedly referring to 1932-present as "modern"] And why do you keep ignoring the key topic?

    WC: I'm ignoring the key topic because I can't win that one [Loose translation]

    Suprise Witness Carl: I've got a bunch of NGC coins I'd sell at 30% over the next lower PCGS grade [And they're from the 50's, so they're classic!]

    WC: Thanks, but no thanks. You'll be fine.

    [Various discussion regarding bust halves follows, which is about as different of coin as you could hope for from a 1950-S Lincoln, and to which SC's point was never directed]

    WC: Ah-hah! So much for the "30% theory" on virtually any pre-1965 Mint State NGC coin!

    (Back to live courtroom proceedings)

    SC: What the?? Since when did anyone assert that theory?

    Once again, back to the topic, this whole thread was about a common-date super-grade coin where virtually all of the value is due to the grade.

    It's absurdly obvious to a reasonable person that a 1950-S MS68 Lincoln (virtually worthless in most grades) is a bit more dependent on its grade and label than a MS64 Bust half (which is worth a pretty "penny" even if raw).

    I rest my case.

    [Throws hands up in exasperation and walks out of courtroom]
  • BearBear Posts: 18,953 ✭✭✭
    Maybe the Forum should issue each of you a nail file and some jockey shorts , so you can "FILE YOUR BRIEFS".
    There once was a place called
    Camelotimage
  • wondercoinwondercoin Posts: 16,972 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Tad: Now that summary was very well done. Would you ever consider a job as a law clerk? image

    The specific topic of THIS THREAD is the heading of the thread - please read it again. image It deals in Mint State high grade coins - NGC vs. PCGS. Not erroneous PR70 material, where you are seeking to pigeonhole into a "loophole in the law". Not, run of the mill modern Proof coins where there is a debate over designations, such as cameo and DCAM from one company to another. Please stick to the issue - Are pre-1965 Mint State coins in NGC holders "worth" one grade less PCGS prices, or perhaps "30% over PCGS one-grade underprices? Simple question. Simple anwer. The answer is a resounding "NO" -they are worth a whole lot more!!

    I also "rest my case". Wondercoin.
    Please visit my website at www.wondercoins.com and my ebay auctions under my user name www.wondercoin.com.
  • orevilleoreville Posts: 12,000 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Speaking of PCGS versus NGC doesn't this 1940-S NGC graded NGC MS-66 quarter I just won look simply fantastic?????



    1940-S MS-66 quarter??????????????image
    A Collectors Universe poster since 1997!
  • wondercoinwondercoin Posts: 16,972 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Careful Oreville. You paid nearly PCGS money for that puppy! image Wondercoin.
    Please visit my website at www.wondercoins.com and my ebay auctions under my user name www.wondercoin.com.
  • IrishMikeIrishMike Posts: 7,737 ✭✭✭
    oreville, I love that quarter!
  • orevilleoreville Posts: 12,000 ✭✭✭✭✭
    wondercoin: In my own defense, I hope it is not one of those original Star Trek's beautiful women that look so because the camera is so out of focus on purpose? image
    A Collectors Universe poster since 1997!
  • braddickbraddick Posts: 24,145 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Oreville, The good news is that looks like it might be an ICG MS67 and you paid 30% less than SEGS MS68 money!

    peacockcoins

  • supercoinsupercoin Posts: 2,323
    I'm sorry, I guess I missed where the question was: Are pre-1965 Mint State coins in NGC holders "worth" one grade less PCGS prices, or perhaps "30% over PCGS one-grade underprices?

    Please re-read your original post:

    "Supercoin essentially states that the UNIQUE FOR BOTH GRADING SERVICES POP 1/0 1950(s) LINCOLN CENT grading NGC-MS68RD should simply be priced as a PCGS-MS67RD coin or perhaps "add 30%" to the PCGS undergrade. I personally believe that notion is rediculous. Before I address my personal feelings on the subject, what do you think? Is Supercoin right? Wondercoin. "

    If you seriously want an answer to your new question (which I doubt), the answer is, obviously, it depends.

    Pre-1965 Mint State coins covers dozens of coin series in grades from MS60-MS70.

    Many of these trade in NGC holders on parity with PCGS holders, and many on parity with raw coins.

    And many of them (common-date super-grade condition-rarities like your 1950-S cent) do not.
  • SpoolySpooly Posts: 2,108 ✭✭✭
    You guys are still beating this horse? Time to bury the horse....he is dead and starting to smell bad! image
    Si vis pacem, para bellum

    In God We Trust.... all others pay in Gold and Silver!
  • BearBear Posts: 18,953 ✭✭✭
    What more is there to say , after the smiley face has spoken.
    There once was a place called
    Camelotimage
  • There hasn't been too much talk about the NGC Guarantee not covering copper. I just read
    the msg on the other forum about what some of the PCGS MS66RD IH were going for in
    the Sup. pre-Long Beach auction.
  • michaelmichael Posts: 9,524 ✭✭
    to me the coin is worth what the owner willing to sell it for and what another is willing to buy it for and there is a meeting of the minds and value is exchanged trade/cash or whatever then tomorrow is another day with most likely a totLLY DIFFERENT VALUE. that is what makes a market

    sincerely michael
  • tradedollarnuttradedollarnut Posts: 20,162 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Can it be? Since both dates are common, can this NGC be of higher quality? Look who's selling them! Link to PCGS/NGC coins for sale
  • DMWJRDMWJR Posts: 6,008 ✭✭✭✭✭
    If this coin was a candidate for PCGS MS68, there is no doubt in my mind that you would have attempted the crossover. Therefore, it is a PCGS MS67. If it can be proven to be PQ for the grade (MS67), then a collector might pay a small premium for it over the PCGS MS67 price. If you want PCGS MS68 money, cross it or sell it at PCGS MS67 prices.
    Doug
  • EVillageProwlerEVillageProwler Posts: 5,856 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Since both dates are common, can this NGC be of higher quality?

    TDN,

    Shame on you! An 1870 Seated Dollar is not common at all. In fact, in MS63, it is one of the most underrated dates in the series. (I'll let you see mine if you can name the other 2 grossly underrated no/motto dates!)

    An 1871 dollar, on the other hand, is common. It is the 2nd most common w/motto date, and is also a Treasury release date.

    EVP

    How does one get a hater to stop hating?

    I can be reached at evillageprowler@gmail.com

  • EVillageProwlerEVillageProwler Posts: 5,856 ✭✭✭✭✭
    If this coin was a candidate for PCGS MS68, there is no doubt in my mind that you would have attempted the crossover. Therefore, it is a PCGS MS67. If it can be proven to be PQ for the grade (MS67), then a collector might pay a small premium for it over the PCGS MS67 price. If you want PCGS MS68 money, cross it or sell it at PCGS MS67 prices.

    Doug,

    You are assuming that PCGS handles crossovers dispassionately and non-politically. There is serious allegation in the industry, and not just amongst forum participants, that PCGS will assess a crossover extra hard for marketing and political reasons.

    What conclusion would you reach IF this allegation proves true?

    EVP

    How does one get a hater to stop hating?

    I can be reached at evillageprowler@gmail.com

  • keithdagenkeithdagen Posts: 2,025
    EVP,

    It was suggested that this piece was being offered at around 1/3 of the PCGS price for the same grade. I would suggest that anyone willing to do that had tried crossing more than a single time, and knows how to play the crossover game.
    Keith ™

  • wondercoinwondercoin Posts: 16,972 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Keith and everyone else: This thread proves again that the Lincoln collectors at times may be pursuing "plastic" -doesn't it? "If the coin crosses to PCGS it is worth a goldmine." "If it hasn't crossed, it is only worth PCGS-MS67RD money".

    Again, what about the fact that this coin is of MS68RD quality AS A COIN? Does this influence the price at all! image

    Of course, NGC has also awarded this coin (and only one other wheat cent dated after 1943) with the MS68RD grade. Despite the opinion of many here, imho, that does count for something! image

    Meanwhile, we'll see what the PCGS "grading gods" have to say about this coin at Long Beach. Wondercoin.
    Please visit my website at www.wondercoins.com and my ebay auctions under my user name www.wondercoin.com.
  • keithdagenkeithdagen Posts: 2,025
    Mitch,

    For copper, and copper alone, NGC's grade means nothing to me. Why, cause a 68RD and a 68RB are going to trade for different prices. NGC is not willing to guarantee that the piece won't change color in the holder. PCGS will. The asking price, whatever it may be, is a substantial risk based on that alone.
    Keith ™

  • wondercoinwondercoin Posts: 16,972 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Keith: That point makes perfect sense to me. Wondercoin
    Please visit my website at www.wondercoins.com and my ebay auctions under my user name www.wondercoin.com.
  • tradedollarnuttradedollarnut Posts: 20,162 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Sad to say, but, with regard to that price, "No" it doesn't matter that it is of MS68 quality. If the grading gods of PCGS refuse to annoint it with the grade, then it's not worth the holder premium that is so crazily assigned to the mythical PCGS coin.

    Certainly it is worth close to a normal price for a coin one grade higher. Certainly double or perhaps even triple the PCGS 67 price (because of the scarcity of NGC 68's). Or even more if someone just has to have it (I'm certainly guilty of paying premiums for top pop coins in my series). But the bottom line is "you live by the sword, you die by the sword". If PCGS's marketing and grading policies are responsible for that crazy price, then in the PCGS holder it must be to realize that crazy price!
  • dbldie55dbldie55 Posts: 7,731 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I don't know how PCGS can make this guarantee as the coins are more likely to change than not to. I do think that has a lot to do with the price difference in copper. PCGS's holders certainly are not more protective than NGC's, and many clearly RB coins can be found in PCGS holders (with RD designations).

    I also think this thread has shown there is a lot more "buying the plastic and not the coin" than many here are willing to admit.
    Collector and Researcher of Liberty Head Nickels. ANA LM-6053
  • wondercoinwondercoin Posts: 16,972 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Well, my coin visited the "grading Gods" today. Submitted to PCGS for cross at the Long Beach show. Will have my result on Thursday morning. While submitting the coin today at PCGS, I ran into a top Lincoln Cent dealer (he actually graded the last PCGS-MS68RD Lincoln wheat they did last month - the 1937(p - not from a cross mind you)). He loved the coin as an incredible 1950(s) Lincoln, although gave it little chance to cross in this environment. Whether the coin crosses or not, it is sold (subject to sight-seen review by a forum member)

    This has been an interesting thread though and I appreciate Tad's analysis here image Wondercoin.

    Please visit my website at www.wondercoins.com and my ebay auctions under my user name www.wondercoin.com.
  • braddickbraddick Posts: 24,145 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Good luck Mitch. PCGS crossed an ICG MS68FSB 1945-(micro)S at the grade (see "24,000.00..." thread on the Coin Forum) so maybe this IS the time!

    peacockcoins

  • orevilleoreville Posts: 12,000 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Braddick: Amazing re that MS-68 FB dime....I will just to suffer with my Kritzman 1945-S micro-S dime in PCGS MS-67 FB.

    I really wanted to have a Kritzman slab. Pedigreed was what I wanted. The coin was just well, barely acceptable for the grade, not exceptional.

    But then that has been the subject for another thread.

    I have to learn to stay focued on the subject matter!

    A Collectors Universe poster since 1997!
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