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Jordan auto graded no authentic.........what to do.....

So I was in the local card shop about a month ago and I came across a 1989 hoops all star Michael Jordan autographed card in the showcase. I asked the dealer whom I have dealt with for several years now what's the story on the Jordan auto? He tells me that he had the card signed in person several years ago at the National Convention. Having dealt with him for many years I had no reason to question this so I bought it and sent it to PSA to get slabbed and authenticated. Well I got the results in today and I got the dreaded "no authentic". What should I do?? Thanks, Andy
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Comments

  • bobmoatbobmoat Posts: 257 ✭✭
    Learn from your mistake
  • initialDinitialD Posts: 1,624 ✭✭✭
    Definitely let him know at least. Who knows if he will do anything for you

    If you guys are as good as you say, no reason why he wouldnt do something to stand behind it

    But on something like that, I would have been up front and asked about a TPA

    scenario and based my purchase on his answer. Makes for an awkward position after the fact now

    Have a scan of it?
  • slum22slum22 Posts: 2,594 ✭✭✭✭
    Originally posted by: initialD
    Definitely let him know at least. Who knows if he will do anything for you

    If you guys are as good as you say, no reason why he wouldnt do something to stand behind it

    But on something like that, I would have been up front and asked about a TPA

    scenario and based my purchase on his answer. Makes for an awkward position after the fact now

    Have a scan of it?


    I agree with this. I would certainly ask him to stand by his product. With purchases like that I agree that I would request the purchase to be conditional based upon passing TPG from the get go.
    Steve
  • MrVintageMrVintage Posts: 1,027 ✭✭✭
    I don't have the card back in hand yet as I just received the bad news today. I guess I was wandering if you guys think that it might be possible that the auto is real and they are just extra cautious with Jordan because he is so popular thus more likely to be faked? I am really trying to give the dealer the benefit of the doubt here because I have spent a lot of money with him and he has always been honest and straightforward with me. The ONLY reason that I bought the card without reservations about the auto is because he told me that he got it in person. I never would have touched it otherwise.
  • Jordan does not go to The National

    Sorry to hear this happened to you. Since this is a four figure card, i would hope he makes it right, or you should take your money elsewhere
    Big Fan of: HOF Post War RC, Graded RCs
    WTB: PSA 1 - PSA 3 Centered, High Eye Appeal 1950's Mantle
  • MrVintageMrVintage Posts: 1,027 ✭✭✭
    Has Jordan ever been an autograph guest at the National??
  • DanBessetteDanBessette Posts: 6,421 ✭✭✭
    No
  • initialDinitialD Posts: 1,624 ✭✭✭
    Always possible that it still may be authentic

    I've seen some pretty fugly Jordan autos lately in slabs so I really anticipate

    checking this one out. There is also JSA and SGC too

    As in the first place, try and get some opinions first whether it looks to be even close

    to keep pursuing it
  • GrimsterGrimster Posts: 286 ✭✭✭
    Sorry man, that sucks. Did you pay cash or credit for it? Hopefully he is understanding and will just refund you the purchase price and that be the end of it. Otherwise it might be annoying trying to get your money back
  • Stone193Stone193 Posts: 24,439 ✭✭✭✭✭
    This is a tough one.



    I'll preface with I'm willing to bet that MJ did not sign a few years ago at the National.



    But, accusing a shop guy of lying wouldn't help this.



    I would just bring the item with the "reject" from PSA to the shop and ask for a refund.



    If you paid by card and they won't? Ask for a refund thru the card company and when they dispute it? Show them a copy of the PSA report.



    I understand how important the PSA/DNA pedigree is - and since this was probably not a cheap purchase? I'd want to the return it also.



    Best of luck.



    edit:



    Top 10 popular signers at the National 2014

    1. Jim Brown

    2. Bobby Cox

    3. Julius Erving

    4. Tom Glavine

    5. Al Kaline

    6. Cal Ripken Jr.

    7. Barry Sanders

    8. Jim Thome

    9. Joe Torre

    10. Mike Tyson



    2013 National:



    TOP 10 MOST POPULAR SIGNERS (IN ORDER): Roger Clemens, Mike Piazza, Chipper Jones, “Sugar” Ray Leonard, Mike Ditka, Pedro Martinez, Ernie Banks, Bart Starr, Cal Ripken Jr. and Frank Gifford.



    Mike
  • KendallCatKendallCat Posts: 3,009 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Jordan has an Upper Deck contract so typically he only signs for them. Never seen him at the Natty - can you imagine the line and the price?
  • IronmanfanIronmanfan Posts: 5,493 ✭✭✭✭
    Jordan has never signed at the National as far as I know...



    All reputable dealers offer lifetime returns on bad material



    IMF
    Successful dealings with Wcsportscards94558, EagleEyeKid, SamsGirl214, Volver, DwayneDrain, Oaksey25, Griffins, Cardfan07, Etc.
  • MrNearMintMrNearMint Posts: 1,209 ✭✭✭
    As said already, take the card along with proof of it failing a psa authentication back to him and very politely ask for full refund. If he says no then that's probably when I would flip out.



    Quick story; a few years ago I purchased a Dan Marino rc from a dealer at a local card show here, I sent it in for grading which it came back as questionable authenticity. I took the card back to him (probably around 2 months later) and showed him the card with the letter from bgs. He couldn't have been nicer about it and immediately gave me a full refund and I had never spent a dollar with him before that. No reason why this guy shouldn't give you a refund.
  • MrVintageMrVintage Posts: 1,027 ✭✭✭
    Good advice guys!!!! Thanks and I will keep you updated.
  • DanBessetteDanBessette Posts: 6,421 ✭✭✭
    I would seriously question doing business with him ever again, given his bogus story.
  • bobmoatbobmoat Posts: 257 ✭✭
    autos are opinions. if you buy one thats not authenticated, you're taking a risk. if it doesn't pan out, don't go crying back to the seller. you knew what you were buying.
  • DanBessetteDanBessette Posts: 6,421 ✭✭✭
    Even a seller who lied about getting the auto in person?
  • travis ttravis t Posts: 1,185 ✭✭✭
    Jordan has belonged exclusively to Upper Deck since the early 90s. This is important knowledge to have if you intend to purchase an unauthorized autograph. Anyone who tells you he signed for them at the National during the past 25 years is easily refuted. Is there is some kind of proof he was there anytime before 1992? He wasn't in Anaheim in 1991. Anything before then, I can't verify. The card in question is from 1989. So, he could have arbitrarily signed for someone with minimal provocation if he was just at the show walking around. Highly unlikely, though.
  • bobmoatbobmoat Posts: 257 ✭✭
    he could have gotten it in person somewhere else. who knows.
  • dennis07dennis07 Posts: 1,842 ✭✭✭
    ...
    Collecting 1970 Topps baseball
  • bobmoatbobmoat Posts: 257 ✭✭
    also, just because psa failed it doesn't mean it is fake. unless there was some sort of agreement in advance about third party authentication, the seller is under no obligation to accept a refund. i would, because i am a sweetheart, but those are the breaks. buyer should learn the lesson. no reward without risk.
  • I would say you deserve a refund because he lied. Michael Jordan has never signed at the national.. I don't think he has ever signed at a public card show in general. If he had brought it in collection or something along those lines, it would be more on you, but because he lied he is to blame.
    www.sportsnutcards.com
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  • Stone193Stone193 Posts: 24,439 ✭✭✭✭✭
    1.no reward without risk 2. learn from your mistake




    The OP said the shop owner got it at the National a few years ago - this is a "card shop" - no where did the OP say he was taking any "risk."



    The syntax of your response reeks of an ALT - like doctorperfecto e.g.



    We DON'T support our friends here with those kind of curt responses.
    Mike
  • bobmoatbobmoat Posts: 257 ✭✭
    buying an unathenticated autograph with the hope that it will pass authentication is risk. your tone is the only one that is negative here.
  • MrVintageMrVintage Posts: 1,027 ✭✭✭
    I definitely understand the risks involved with buying autos that have not been authenticated and like I said before I never would have purchased it without the dealer telling me that he got it signed in person. I have dealt with him for several years so I had no reason to think that he would tell me something like that if it wasn't accurate. Thanks for the input fellas and hopefully I will be able to work it out with the dealer without any problems. Thanks, Andy
  • Stone193Stone193 Posts: 24,439 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Originally posted by: MrVintage

    I definitely understand the risks involved with buying autos that have not been authenticated and like I said before I never would have purchased it without the dealer telling me that he got it signed in person. I have dealt with him for several years so I had no reason to think that he would tell me something like that if it wasn't accurate. Thanks for the input fellas and hopefully I will be able to work it out with the dealer without any problems. Thanks, Andy




    I think it'll go well Andy - ya don't stay in business with a shop by avoiding good customer service.



    Take care.



    Mike
  • Dpeck100Dpeck100 Posts: 10,912 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I have a signed Jordan that failed twice. Mike Navarro said when I posted it that he thought it was good. He is clearly an auto expert.

    A year or so ago I ran into the lady who got it signed for me and her step son in seventh grade and asked her about it. She recounted the story like it was yesterday. She is a Disney executive and he was a guest of their's at the time and she has no reason to lie.

    I have other items that have failed PSA as well that I am very confident are real.

    This is a tough one.

    Did you pay the price of one that is already authenticated?



  • MrVintageMrVintage Posts: 1,027 ✭✭✭
    That's interesting Dpeck. Maybe I should send some scans of it to some of the more knowledgeable auto experts on the board once I have the card back in hand and see what they think. This is why I posted here fellas.....you guys have tons of knowledge and it's always good to hear others thoughts before deciding what to do. Thanks, Andy
  • Stone193Stone193 Posts: 24,439 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Originally posted by: MrVintage

    That's interesting Dpeck. Maybe I should send some scans of it to some of the more knowledgeable auto experts on the board once I have the card back in hand and see what they think. This is why I posted here fellas.....you guys have tons of knowledge and it's always good to hear others thoughts before deciding what to do. Thanks, Andy




    How much do they charge for the auto authentic. on the card?
    Mike
  • bobmoatbobmoat Posts: 257 ✭✭
    an apology would be in order here, Stone
  • KNAPPKNAPP Posts: 654 ✭✭✭
    I agree with some of the other board members. Just because PSA says that something is not authentic, it doesn't mean that it is a fake. I worked a few autograph shows for Hulk Hogan and got a few things signed. When a submitted a card to PSA they said it was not authentic, because they never seen Hogan sign a certain way. Hogan actually signed the table covering at the show the same way he signed my card, so after the show was finished I borrowed a security guard's knife and cut the table covering. I brought the table covering to show PSA that he really does sign like that and then PSA authenticated the card.

    PSA is very tough on high end autos, especially Jordan. They are not going to put a sloppy, rushed auto in their holder, unless they knew the source it came from.

    There is a vintage Cassius Clay signature on Heritage auctions right now. The signature is not authenticated by PSA or JSA, but comes with a LOA from Harry Shaffer. I had similar Clay autos that were deemed not authentic by PSA and JSA, but I was told by a few major boxing dealers that they were authentic. It is best to do your homework, and if something doesn't look right then stay away.

    The Jordan story the guy gave you sounds like just that, a story.
    the KNAPP collection - specializing in boxing and wrestling
    Always looking to buy or trade for Andre the Giant autographs
    psacard.com/psasetregistry/non-sports/famous-personage/andre-giant-master-set/alltimeset/180400


  • LittletweedLittletweed Posts: 623 ✭✭✭
    Andy, I hope it works out with the dealer if you decide to return it.

    I have a similar story, but the dealer is long gone. I purchased this Bulls team signed Hoops sheet in the spring of '91 from my then local card store. The dealer had a couple of them, he told me he got them signed by hanging around after the Bulls practice. I grew up in Des Plaines which is not too far from where they practiced in Deerfield, so it made sense. I asked him if Jordan was the hardest to get signed, and he said no, by far Bill Cartwright was the hardest. Anyways, I have always thought the signatures were real. I brought it to the national three years ago and wanted PSA to authenticate it, but they were too busy to get it back the same day, but SGC said they could do it. They couldn't authenticate it. I may try again in the future, but since I'm never selling it, I'm not in a hurry.

    image
    Matt

  • BLUEJAYWAYBLUEJAYWAY Posts: 9,489 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Just a bit of a review/opinion here. I assume most here and in the grading sphere realize/accept that TPG's just offer an opinion, albeit qualified. But as has also been seen throughout the hobby opinions vary. Just look at the resub./crossover realm. So being that as it may, it's entirely possible that another's opinion could result in a positive outcome as far as the legitimacy of the auto. If the shop owner wished to pay for a second/third opinion to secure the sale, that would be on said shop owner and show good faith. But if the card comes back authentic by 1 or 2 of 3 grading company's that only lends to confusion, but enhances the "it's only an opinion" claim. I am somewhat surprised they did not choose to grade the card sooner as it would enhance it's authenticity,value, salelability. The shop owner put themselves on the line and opened themselves up to additional scrutiny with the "in person at the National" claim. This was a verifiable claim, which according to many posts here has largely been debunked. So now you must rely on your relationship with the shop owner to rectify the problem. Hopefully he makes acceptable restitution to you so as to continue having your business. Since many of the comments here have been constructive in nature, I would show him these posts/thread to offer some legitimacy to your concerns. Keep us posted. Good luck. P.S. On a personal note and preference, this is why I only buy in person by me autos. when I do buy them for a personal collection addition. Backed up with ticket stubs, pix of signer etc. This way I do not rely on others opinions, removing any doubt of authenticity. But this is what works best for my piece of mind/collection.
    Successful transactions:Tookybandit. "Everyone is equal, some are more equal than others".
  • DanBessetteDanBessette Posts: 6,421 ✭✭✭
    Originally posted by: bobmoat

    an apology would be in order here, Stone




    Everybody knows you're an alt, but we let it go, because you're usually either funny or you're picking on the people who deserve it. But if you're going to pick a fight with Mike I don't think it will go well for you. If any board member is above reproach, it's him.
  • bobmoatbobmoat Posts: 257 ✭✭
    I am not an alt, my name is my handle. I'll take an apology from you too, Dave.
  • Dpeck100Dpeck100 Posts: 10,912 ✭✭✭✭✭
    That is Dan. This is Dave.
  • bobmoatbobmoat Posts: 257 ✭✭
    You cool, Peck
  • jmmiller777jmmiller777 Posts: 1,324 ✭✭✭
    Originally posted by: bobmoat
    autos are opinions. if you buy one thats not authenticated, you're taking a risk. if it doesn't pan out, don't go crying back to the seller. you knew what you were buying.


    But when a dealer says he had it signed at the National (personally), a vast majority of folks would take this as truth, as you should be able to do. A flat out lie like this hopefully only represents a small group. Yep, this makes the dealer a member of the 1%er group (outaw). How this guy has a shop and makes a living is unexplainable, as he has probably been turning these out for years (if he did the counterfeiting). He should be exposed with shop name, address and phone number. Of course, try and get your money back first.
    CURRENT PROJECTS IN WORK:
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  • bobmoatbobmoat Posts: 257 ✭✭
    He could have gotten it signed ip elsewhere and misremembered. That doesn't make him an outlaw. Good lord you guys
  • MrNearMintMrNearMint Posts: 1,209 ✭✭✭
    You could even post scans of the auto on a couple different forums, there's gotta be some Jordan auto specialists in the crowd somewhere
  • Stone193Stone193 Posts: 24,439 ✭✭✭✭✭
    image



    Went over to Lelands to see if they had anything and there's a young Jordan auto pic for sale and this was part of the auction on eBay.



    Jordan has only done one public signing in his entire career...
    Mike
  • I attended the National in Chicago in 2002 as a dealer and ran into a gentleman - let's call him William. Long story short, he was running a con where he pretended to have an "in" at Michael Jordan's workout facility to get autographs of MJ. He would show photographs of himself with Antoine Walker, Penny Hardaway, Michael Finley, Ron Artest, young Lebron James, etc. This "show and tell" was to build up trust and legitimacy. He would arrive at the National with tons of pictures, great stories and lots of MJ autos. And honestly, they were dead on. Best fakes I have ever seen. He sold to a lot of dealers at that show and some of the items even made it to high end auction houses. Shoes, jerseys, team-signed balls, you name it. The point of this story? The MJ autograph market is so lucrative, it can bring out the worst in people. People who will go to great lengths to tell a lie if it leads to financial profit. And some of these MJ fakes are amazing. Good luck.
    Joe

    IG: goatcollectibles23

    The biggest lesson I've learned in this hobby, and in life, is that if you have a strong conviction, you owe it to yourself to see it through. Don't sell yourself, or your investments, short. Unless the facts change. Then sell it all.
  • MrVintageMrVintage Posts: 1,027 ✭✭✭
    Here is the MJ auto in question......

    image
  • 1980scollector1980scollector Posts: 2,036 ✭✭✭
    If you don't mind me asking what did you pay for the item?

    Either way I would return it.
    ** Working on the following sets-2013 Spectra Football Hall of Fame 50th Anniversary Autograph set, 2015 Spectra Football Illustrious Legends Autograph set, 2014-15 Hall of Fame Heroes autograph set. **
  • CakesCakes Posts: 3,655 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Originally posted by: Dpeck100
    That is Dan. This is Dave.


    Mike, Dan, Dave, Steve, etc...this is why using real names can be confusing.

    Successful coin BST transactions with Gerard and segoja.

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  • bishopbishop Posts: 2,917 ✭✭✭
    Mike---Dr Perfecto is not real ? Darn, that is so disappointing

    Bobmoan---Mike is a neighbor and he can be stubborn so allow me to offer this apology on his behalf

    Text
    Topps Baseball-1948, 1951 to 2017
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  • CooptownCooptown Posts: 397 ✭✭✭
    While this does not help you one way or the other on the authenticity, PSA does appear to be harder on the bigger named guys; Jeter, Mantle, Jordan, Trout, Pujols, etc.

    I have a Jeter rookie card that I got signed in person in Syracuse in 1995 that PSA will not pass. Absolutely beautiful signature. The Columbus Clippers were visiting, and they were loaded: Mo, Jeets, Posada, and Ruben Rivera. Mo, Posada and Ruben had all left the clubhouse and were signing in the parking lot and it was sort of chaos. I see the clubhouse door open up, and Jeter is standing right there. Me and another guy I don't know rush over to him. The other guy goes first and hands him a stack of cards and Jeets signs all of them. I give him my binder, that probably has 8 - 10 cards showing, and he only signs one. What could have been....but it's hard to argue with having a Jeter signed RC in your collection. In hindsight I probably should have tried to double dip him.
  • MrVintageMrVintage Posts: 1,027 ✭✭✭
    I would be interested to hear the thoughts of some of the boards autograph experts on this Jordan auto.
  • DanBessetteDanBessette Posts: 6,421 ✭✭✭
    Originally posted by: Cakes

    Originally posted by: Dpeck100

    That is Dan. This is Dave.




    Mike, Dan, Dave, Steve, etc...this is why using real names can be confusing.







    Fair point in general, but my username and real name are the same lol
  • vols1vols1 Posts: 792 ✭✭✭
    Usually the 'M' is not disconnected from the rest of his name. And this looks like a neat auto but most of his in person autos are sloppy.
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