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1874 Proof Trade Dollars

Seeking photos of hi grade, very early die state 1874 Proof Trade Dollars for an upcoming article. If you have hi rez photos of early state pieces, particularly the no period after FINE, please PM.

Comments

  • gripgrip Posts: 9,962 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Google it.Numerous come up.
  • stealerstealer Posts: 3,995 ✭✭✭✭
    I PM'd you large images of one that's an EDS, but I figured I'd give you a nice bump and show the world my addiction problem ... it's not my fault that they keep showing up on eBay cheap image

    imageimage
    imageimage
    imageimage

  • RittenhouseRittenhouse Posts: 565 ✭✭✭
    Originally posted by: stealer
    I PM'd you large images of one that's an EDS, but I figured I'd give you a nice bump and show the world my addiction problem ... it's not my fault that they keep showing up on eBay cheap image



    Thanks stealer. As I replied to PM, your DCAM is the earliest I've seen so far with the dentil pit on the 4th dentil left of 1 still showing frost, the sharp die spur on right side of 6th dentil right of 4, no polish lines at dentils, no polish ripples between dentils and rocky base at foot. Nice catch my friend. You may end up with the earliest known. Is it for sale image

  • Jackthecat1Jackthecat1 Posts: 1,122 ✭✭✭
    Great examples of an underrated design.
    Member ANS, ANA, GSNA, TNC



    image
  • OriginalDanOriginalDan Posts: 3,747 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Out of curiosity, how are you determining die progression? Isn't the mintage small enough that you wouldn't see the normal tells such as die scratches or cracks?



    The mint workers could have re-polished the fields at any time, but I suppose the frosted devices could not be restored?
  • AUandAGAUandAG Posts: 24,754 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Nice examples Dan, you learn quickly!



    bobimage
    Registry: CC lowballs (boblindstrom), bobinvegas1989@yahoo.com
  • RittenhouseRittenhouse Posts: 565 ✭✭✭
    Originally posted by: OriginalDan
    Out of curiosity, how are you determining die progression? Isn't the mintage small enough that you wouldn't see the normal tells such as die scratches or cracks?

    The mint workers could have re-polished the fields at any time, but I suppose the frosted devices could not be restored?


    Read my post immediately above. Die scratches and cracks are not the only tells.

  • RittenhouseRittenhouse Posts: 565 ✭✭✭
    Bump for the morning & Sunday crowd.

    If you have any middle to later state pieces (ie, cam not dcam, or no frost) and you want your piece considered for the die state census, PM me a hi rez photo.

    So far, stealer has the best State A example. There is a PCGS 64 DCAM that is the same state, but stealer's 62 DCAM is more sharply struck and shows the key dentil defects far more clearly.
  • OriginalDanOriginalDan Posts: 3,747 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Originally posted by: Rittenhouse

    Read my post immediately above. Die scratches and cracks are not the only tells.





    I read your post previously, but are those really sure fire tells? Frost can be perturbed on a 62, especially in the dentils. Die polish lines can come and go as the worker tended to the die, no?



    Not trying to challenge you, genuinely interested.
  • OriginalDanOriginalDan Posts: 3,747 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Also, did you check the PCGS coin facts examples:



    DCAM



    CAM



    Proof (no designation)
  • rickoricko Posts: 98,724 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Those are very nice Stealer.... and you say ebay? Cheap?? I may have to revisit ebay....have stayed away for a few years... Cheers, RickO
  • RittenhouseRittenhouse Posts: 565 ✭✭✭
    Originally posted by: OriginalDan
    Originally posted by: Rittenhouse
    Read my post immediately above. Die scratches and cracks are not the only tells.


    I read your post previously, but are those really sure fire tells? Frost can be perturbed on a 62, especially in the dentils. Die polish lines can come and go as the worker tended to the die, no?

    Not trying to challenge you, genuinely interested.


    One of the greatest and most enduring myths of the Mint is that the workers (pressmen/women) worked on, set, or adjusted the dies. Nothing could be further from the truth. They may have wiped a die with a soft cloth or brush if necessary, but even that would have been under supervision. They did not have access to files, hammers, and other tools (for obvious reasons). They operated the presses, period. If a die needed reset or adjusted, the pressmen would inform the Coiner or Foreman. If the dies needed repaired, they went back to the engraving dept.

    Yup, frost can be disrupted on any coin less than 70. That's why you gotta look at a lot of coins.

    And to answer your Coin Facts question, yes, since I work with John Dannreuther, I have access to PCGS photos, even those that are not on Coin Facts. We can also get the orig photos from most auction houses if need be.

    If you're interested in a peek on how we do this stuff, try http://gobrechtdollars.com



  • bjaminbjamin Posts: 141 ✭✭✭
    Originally posted by: Rittenhouse
    Originally posted by: OriginalDan
    Originally posted by: Rittenhouse
    Read my post immediately above. Die scratches and cracks are not the only tells.


    I read your post previously, but are those really sure fire tells? Frost can be perturbed on a 62, especially in the dentils. Die polish lines can come and go as the worker tended to the die, no?

    Not trying to challenge you, genuinely interested.


    One of the greatest and most enduring myths of the Mint is that the workers (pressmen/women) worked on, set, or adjusted the dies. Nothing could be further from the truth. They may have wiped a die with a soft cloth or brush if necessary, but even that would have been under supervision. They did not have access to files, hammers, and other tools (for obvious reasons). They operated the presses, period. If a die needed reset or adjusted, the pressmen would inform the Coiner or Foreman. If the dies needed repaired, they went back to the engraving dept.

    Yup, frost can be disrupted on any coin less than 70. That's why you gotta look at a lot of coins.

    And to answer your Coin Facts question, yes, since I work with John Dannreuther, I have access to PCGS photos, even those that are not on Coin Facts. We can also get the orig photos from most auction houses if need be.

    If you're interested in a peek on how we do this stuff, try http://gobrechtdollars.com





    Some excellent info, thank you. About time some came along to school the supposed self anointed experts on this forum. Between all the wannabe dealers, flippers, genuine dealers (who make up a great percentage of the members here) and other ego maniacs it is a breathe of fresh air to read the writings of some members that really do know what they are talking about. I appreciate your posts, thank you.
  • RittenhouseRittenhouse Posts: 565 ✭✭✭


    Some excellent info, thank you. About time some came along to school the supposed self anointed experts on this forum. Between all the wannabe dealers, flippers, genuine dealers (who make up a great percentage of the members here) and other ego maniacs it is a breathe of fresh air to read the writings of some members that really do know what they are talking about. I appreciate your posts, thank you.


    Thanks, but none of what I post here is really new. I've been publishing this stuff since the late 1980s in the club journals - Penny-wise, JR Journal, Gobrecht Journal, etc. So has JD, Karoleff, Bugert, Eckberg, JK, etc, etc. Ya just gotta take the time to get the pubs and read. For those who don't know, I'm Craig Sholley.

  • OriginalDanOriginalDan Posts: 3,747 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Originally posted by: bjamin

    Some excellent info, thank you. About time some came along to school the supposed self anointed experts on this forum. Between all the wannabe dealers, flippers, genuine dealers (who make up a great percentage of the members here) and other ego maniacs it is a breathe of fresh air to read the writings of some members that really do know what they are talking about. I appreciate your posts, thank you.




    If you're pointing the finger at me, let this thread be exhibit A to show you're wrong. There has been some bad blood in previous threads about Trade Dollars, but repeating this "self anointed experts" mantra isn't helpful. We can agree that it's a great thing to see an informative thread discussing trade dollars, but your post is distasteful and only leads to unproductive banter. If asking questions and learning is "being schooled" then great, let me be schooled.



    Craig, thank you. I'm a big fan of trade dollars but haven't spent much time studying the proof issues. Lots of differences between the circulation strikes and proofs that I'm still learning about. I would guess that with a small mintage of 700, there would only be a few runs made throughout the year. If the planchet preparation and striking pressure were kept consistent enough, then I see how you can extract a sequence from the little details.



    Any plans to work on other years? I'd be particularly interested in your thoughts on 1876 proof trade dollars. With 4 different "varieties" and a lot of variation, it would be an interesting year to study. I'd be happy to assist with the leg work gathering pictures for this year.
  • bjaminbjamin Posts: 141 ✭✭✭
    Originally posted by: OriginalDan
    Originally posted by: bjamin
    Some excellent info, thank you. About time some came along to school the supposed self anointed experts on this forum. Between all the wannabe dealers, flippers, genuine dealers (who make up a great percentage of the members here) and other ego maniacs it is a breathe of fresh air to read the writings of some members that really do know what they are talking about. I appreciate your posts, thank you.


    If you're pointing the finger at me, let this thread be exhibit A to show you're wrong. There has been some bad blood in previous threads about Trade Dollars, but repeating this "self anointed experts" mantra isn't helpful. We can agree that it's a great thing to see an informative thread discussing trade dollars, but your post is distasteful and only leads to unproductive banter. If asking questions and learning is "being schooled" then great, let me be schooled.

    Craig, thank you. I'm a big fan of trade dollars but haven't spent much time studying the proof issues. Lots of differences between the circulation strikes and proofs that I'm still learning about. I would guess that with a small mintage of 700, there would only be a few runs made throughout the year. If the planchet preparation and striking pressure were kept consistent enough, then I see how you can extract a sequence from the little details.

    Any plans to work on other years? I'd be particularly interested in your thoughts on 1876 proof trade dollars. With 4 different "varieties" and a lot of variation, it would be an interesting year to study. I'd be happy to assist with the leg work gathering pictures for this year.


    My apologies.

  • RittenhouseRittenhouse Posts: 565 ✭✭✭

    Any plans to work on other years? I'd be particularly interested in your thoughts on 1876 proof trade dollars. With 4 different "varieties" and a lot of variation, it would be an interesting year to study. I'd be happy to assist with the leg work gathering pictures for this year.


    We will eventually get there. Right now JD is finishing the proof gold book. We jumped ahead to the 74 TD's because something interesting came up.

  • Insider2Insider2 Posts: 14,452 ✭✭✭✭✭
    You are extremely fortunate to be working with JD. I don't know him well enough to use his initials. A few observation and questions please?



    !. Where are you going to publish the Trade dollar article?



    2. I was not alive when Trade dollars were struck but I did see a press operator doing more than "wiping" a die with no supervisor around until he showed up at the press with me and one other person in tow.



    3. What do you fellows know about that unusual 1877-S reverse that was published several months ago?



    Thanks
  • OriginalDanOriginalDan Posts: 3,747 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Originally posted by: Rittenhouse



    Any plans to work on other years? I'd be particularly interested in your thoughts on 1876 proof trade dollars. With 4 different "varieties" and a lot of variation, it would be an interesting year to study. I'd be happy to assist with the leg work gathering pictures for this year.




    We will eventually get there. Right now JD is finishing the proof gold book. We jumped ahead to the 74 TD's because something interesting came up.







    Well that's a statement to whet the appetite. Looking forward to hearing this something interesting that came up!
  • bjaminbjamin Posts: 141 ✭✭✭
    Originally posted by: Insider2
    You are extremely fortunate to be working with JD. I don't know him well enough to use his initials. A few observation and questions please?

    !. Where are you going to publish the Trade dollar article?

    2. I was not alive when Trade dollars were struck but I did see a press operator doing more than "wiping" a die with no supervisor around until he showed up at the press with me and one other person in tow.

    3. What do you fellows know about that unusual 1877-S reverse that was published several months ago?

    Thanks


    What unusual reverse?

  • bjaminbjamin Posts: 141 ✭✭✭
    Originally posted by: OriginalDan
    Originally posted by: bjamin
    Some excellent info, thank you. About time some came along to school the supposed self anointed experts on this forum. Between all the wannabe dealers, flippers, genuine dealers (who make up a great percentage of the members here) and other ego maniacs it is a breathe of fresh air to read the writings of some members that really do know what they are talking about. I appreciate your posts, thank you.


    If you're pointing the finger at me, let this thread be exhibit A to show you're wrong. There has been some bad blood in previous threads about Trade Dollars, but repeating this "self anointed experts" mantra isn't helpful. We can agree that it's a great thing to see an informative thread discussing trade dollars, but your post is distasteful and only leads to unproductive banter. If asking questions and learning is "being schooled" then great, let me be schooled.

    Craig, thank you. I'm a big fan of trade dollars but haven't spent much time studying the proof issues. Lots of differences between the circulation strikes and proofs that I'm still learning about. I would guess that with a small mintage of 700, there would only be a few runs made throughout the year. If the planchet preparation and striking pressure were kept consistent enough, then I see how you can extract a sequence from the little details.

    Any plans to work on other years? I'd be particularly interested in your thoughts on 1876 proof trade dollars. With 4 different "varieties" and a lot of variation, it would be an interesting year to study. I'd be happy to assist with the leg work gathering pictures for this year.


    Can you please spell out the 1876 PR with 4 different varieties?
    Thank you

  • OriginalDanOriginalDan Posts: 3,747 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Originally posted by: bjamin

    Can you please spell out the 1876 PR with 4 different varieties?

    Thank you





    Sure, I setup this showcase a while back for this very purpose:



    Proof Trade Dollars of 1876



    And by the way, I don't want to be mistaken as an "expert" but I believe the rough patch near Liberty's foot is actually water, not a rocky base. image



    If you think about the imagery, she's extending an olive branch across the Pacific Ocean to China. Some trade dollar patterns even have a ship in this area, something I wish would have stuck around for the adopted design. The British trade dollar has a ship in the design and I think it's neat, since the majority of these dollars actually took a boat ride to China.
  • RittenhouseRittenhouse Posts: 565 ✭✭✭
    You are extremely fortunate to be working with JD.
    I keep telling him he's lucky to be working with me. image


    !. Where are you going to publish the Trade dollar article?
    Probably Gobrecht Journal.


    2. I was not alive when Trade dollars were struck but I did see a press operator doing more than "wiping" a die with no supervisor around until he showed up at the press with me and one other person in tow.
    That was now, this is then.


    3. What do you fellows know about that unusual 1877-S reverse that was published several months ago?

    Nothing I know of. We're only doing proofs.


  • RittenhouseRittenhouse Posts: 565 ✭✭✭
    And by the way, I don't want to be mistaken as an "expert" but I believe the rough patch near Liberty's foot is actually water, not a rocky base
    Yup. Bad habit form just doing the Gobrechts and some Seated. I probably should just use base.

  • bjaminbjamin Posts: 141 ✭✭✭
    Originally posted by: OriginalDan
    Originally posted by: bjamin
    Can you please spell out the 1876 PR with 4 different varieties?
    Thank you


    Sure, I setup this showcase a while back for this very purpose:

    Proof Trade Dollars of 1876

    And by the way, I don't want to be mistaken as an "expert" but I believe the rough patch near Liberty's foot is actually water, not a rocky base. image

    If you think about the imagery, she's extending an olive branch across the Pacific Ocean to China. Some trade dollar patterns even have a ship in this area, something I wish would have stuck around for the adopted design. The British trade dollar has a ship in the design and I think it's neat, since the majority of these dollars actually took a boat ride to China.


    image most definitely and clearly the ripples of an ocean, who thought otherwise and when?
  • Insider2Insider2 Posts: 14,452 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Originally posted by: Rittenhouse

    Seeking photos of hi grade, very early die state 1874 Proof Trade Dollars for an upcoming article. If you have hi rez photos of early state pieces, particularly the no period after FINE, please PM.




    In the OP you ask for info on Proof Trade dollars. In the thread the topic of die states is being discussed using die breaks, etc. Did you need info on ALL 1874 Trade $ or just the proofs as you posted?
  • vulcanizevulcanize Posts: 1,407 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @Rittenhouse said:
    Seeking photos of hi grade, very early die state 1874 Proof Trade Dollars for an upcoming article.

    My apologies for bumping a six year old thread, but would really love to see the article if you have a link and hopefully there was research done on other years as well.

    Thanks in advance.

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