Any info regarding the 1925/27/29 counterfeit Buffalo nickels?

jesbroken

Does anyone have an example of the 1925, 1927, or 1929 Buffalo Nickel counterfeited by the Ehlers brothers and Gailie? I would like to see some pics of them if you do and what is the identifiable features for identification purposes. Very little info available. Very few people that I have spoken to are knowledgeable of this event. I have a copy of the newspaper report in 1935 telling of the raid and its results, but very little else is forthcoming. I would like to have any additional information regarding this counterfeiting of Buffalo Nickels that anyone might provide. Copy of original Newspaper page available. If interested pm me.

Thanks,

Jim



The following is copied from the news article:



"OSWEGO PALLADIUM-TIMES. MONDAY. MARCH 4, 1935

U. S. Agents Think Counterfeit

Ring Broken With

Three Arrests.-

GOSHEN, N. Y., March UPI -

A flood of fake 5-cent pieces in

Eastern states was believed ended

today with the arrest of three men

in a farmhouse near here by Treasury

Department agents.

Government agents said the men,

Leo Ehlers, 42; his brother, George

40, and Leo Gailie, 39, were members

of a counterfeit ring which

has disposed of from $200,000 to

$250,000 in spurious 5-cent coins in

the past five and a half years.

Three- hydraulic presses, one of

four and a half tons, with a total

capacity of 15,000 to 20,000 nickels

a day, agents said, were found in

the basement of an abandoned

farmhouse near Goshen. Metal

lathes, a gasoline power plant and

other tools were found.-

A large quantity of nickel silver

which costs but a. fraction of a

cent for eajch "nickel" produced

between 2,000 and 3,000 newly finished

coins and from 8,000 to 10,000

slugs ready for stamping also were

seized.



Alan C. Straight, chief of Treasury

Department agents in New

York City, led the raiding party

and said the coins were a "nearly"

perfect imitation of the "buffalo

nickel and bore the dates of 1925,

1927 and 1929.

Trailing of the gang, he said, was

extremely difficult as the fake

coins were distributed through

highly organized agents who purchased

them at 50 cents on the

dollar. An added difficulty was the "method

of placing the coins in circulation through

telephone and vending machines."



Louis Ehlers and Gailie were found in the

building when the raiders crashed in early

yesterday while George Ehlers was arrested

when he drove up to the farm house. The three

will be arraigned before United States Commisioner

at Peekskill today."

LanceNewmanOCC

.

maybe the names sound familiar?



will comb the archives later today.

.

ricko

Did not know about this...and in my general area as well.... Cheers, RickO

Overdate

"has disposed of from $200,000 to $250,000 in spurious 5-cent coins"

If true that's 4,000,000 nickels or more, there should still be plenty around.

jesbroken

I spent a year in 2009 trying to unearth information of this Buffalo Nickel Counterfeiting and was stopped at every turn. Many, many knowledgeable numistmatists told me it didn't even happen. Many more told me the numbers were made up by "overzealous news reporter and that one could not believe anything that Treasury Agents have to say about anything. Whaaat? I have many emails/pms from various authors(some who post here) that discount its validity. I have always been curious. Anyone a member of the Elgin, IL coin club? Supposedly a Doug there in the club(secretary, I believe) has a Counterfeit 1927 Buffalo nickel that he showed during a December 5, 2007 meeting at the club. This was just in my notes as a side, but I feel it is accurate. Any help would be great, if so.

Read Ed Rochette's article below.

Thanks again,

Jim

Overdate

See page 10 of this PDF, last entry in the "70 years ago" section. This is the only recent reference I can find on the topic.

Over 100,000 Henning counterfeit Jefferson nickels supposedly made it to circulation. If several million of these counterfeit buffaloes also reached circulation then at least several thousand should still exist in collections or hoards.

It could be that fewer counterfeits were released to circulation, they were good enough to fool everyone, or they never existed in the first place.

Assuming they existed, how did the government determine the nickels were fake? What happened to the three men after they were arrested? Why the lack of contemporary news accounts of people defrauded by the counterfeits? Seems to me this should have been a bigger story at the time.

jesbroken

Thanks, Overdate, for the info. Another little piece of the puzzle. I have tried to find via google and speaking to people at Baltimore Coin Show in 2009 and not got too far. I am sure the government felt they were fake merely as they were made in a farmhouse in NY state. As to them not existing, I think with as much info as is known, this would be unlikely. Again, just my opinion. I would love to be able to go to the courthouse where these men were indicted and read the more factual story.

Jim

mannie gray

Interesting story, had not heard it before.

Overdate

Jim, as a followup you might want to check the 1930 and 1940 U.S. Census records for the three men, I believe both censuses are now publicly available. If they have any living relatives/descendants they might be able to shed additional light on the story.

cmerlo1

I wonder if the same counterfeiters made this one- note the buffalo's belly goes straight across and doesn't sag. I've heard there are other years with this "skinny buffalo" reverse:

jesbroken

Might be, cmerlo1. I hope to have a photo of one in the next couple of days. I have emailed several entities trying to gather info. May take a few days on that though. I've emailed Secret Service and U.S. Treasury several times and have never once got a response. I figure there is a huge level of counterfeit coins that are not being researched today due to the low value, but in the early 1900's 5 cents and up mattered, unlike today.

Jim

Overdate

Both 1930 and 1940 Census info on Leo Gailie shows him living with his family in Warwick Town, NY, about 12 miles from Goshen, where the counterfeiting supposedly took place. I didn't find any census information for the other two.

1930 Census

1940 Census

He apparently died in Florida in 1973.

jesbroken

Overdraft,

I found the 1930 Census has been transferred to the National Archive and is only available via microfilm at $125 or in person. Then, in the 1940 Census I found all three men living in and around Peekskill, NY in Westchester County. So, they did exist at the time that the counterfeiting occurred. Hopefully, I will have more info in the next few days. Much more available than in 2009.

Jim



After typing this I found you had already done so. Thanks...Jim

LanceNewmanOCC

.

nice pic christian.



ive been wondering about some buffs for a while now but they seemed ok.



i may start a "questionable" tub and put in a few dozen for examination/study.



and still research.



gj all.

.

cmerlo1

Originally posted by: LanceNewmanOCC
.
nice pic christian.

ive been wondering about some buffs for a while now but they seemed ok.

i may start a "questionable" tub and put in a few dozen for examination/study.

and still research.

gj all.
.

Thanks! I took them years ago with my old camera... might be time to photograph them again.

I've found around 5 of the 1916-S 'Skinny Buffalo' counterfeits. All had the die crack at 9:00 and the missing designer's initial. Whoever made these made a lot of them.

Overdate

Jim,
I was able to bring up the relevant 1930 and 1940 census pages for free. I've also been able to do so with earlier censuses.

Original 1930 page

Insider2

I've collected counterfeits for decades and have never heard of these - that means nothing of course. Anyway, I think I may know why none of these particular counterfeits have ever shown up. They were in lower grades of circulation, just as the micro "O" dollars. I'll bet until the OP's question here, no competent authenticator/numismatist paid much attention to nickels with these dates! Thanks for the info, I'll be looking.



PS As usual, an uncirculated photo was used in the 1935 article. The fakes were not Unc. Just my opinion.



PSS I'll also bet the Treasury Dept. has an example. Try a FOI request for a photo.

jesbroken

I made a request in 2009 but never received an answer. I have resubmitted an answer but do not expect a prompt answer.

Thanks

Jim

jesbroken

In "The Complete Guide to Buffalo Nickels" by David Lange, he states that all 1925 Buffalo Nickels had slight doubling on the ribbons(all mint marks). This might be a way to identify the counterfeits. Of course, if they are too worn to tell, a real telltale sign will be needed. I have studied many, many 1925, 27 and 29 buffs in vf and up and have not seen a telltale sign of difference between any.

Jim

Overdate

Originally posted by: jesbroken
In "The Complete Guide to Buffalo Nickels" by David Lange, he states that all 1925 Buffalo Nickels had slight doubling on the ribbons(all mint marks). This might be a way to identify the counterfeits.

If the counterfeit dies were made from genuine coins, wouldn't they exhibit the slight doubling also? I'm assuming this is the case, since counterfeit dies made from scratch would have produced coins that varied considerably from real ones, and these coins would have been readily identified by the collector community.

sellitstore

I live close enough to Peekskill to go by and look at any court records in person. Maybe I should make a call and see if they have these records on hand and available to the public.

I suspect that there may have been a prosecution, although there's a news story about the arrest but none about a trial or prosecution. These records may not tell us much about the coins.

If the counterfeiters were using punch presses to make the planchets, wouldn't they be pretty crude without the upsetting process to properly form the rims? Maybe they were poor quality counterfeits and few were made and circulated, but where are they?

CaptHenway

I am not familiar with these counterfeits.

jesbroken

Very few are. I was amazed in 2009 at the Baltimore coin show how many people had never heard of them and how many VERY knowledgeable people said either it never happened or they did not believe it. I won't mention any names as several are members here and I would gain nothing by repeating that. Luckily, I still have emails and pm's. I wrote letters to Congressmen, authors, State of NY(Westchester County). I have called county court clerks, historical data clerks, filed for info with the Secret Service and Treasury Dept(neither of which answered my requests). I have filed again under FOIA and still do not have much hope.

Sellitstore, it would be wonderful if you could make the effort do this. I would appreciate any and all data you collect in this endeavor.

Thanks to all,

Jim

sellitstore

OK, Jim, I'll make some calls and visit Peekskill next week, if they have anything.

I found several other newspaper accounts of the arrest, some with additional details. Many more newspapers have been put online since 2009, but additional articles probably originate from a single wire service report, and that could be unreliable.

I don't think that artificially circulating the nickels would have been economically viable, as was the case with the New Orleans counterfeit dollars. Additionally, nickel is much harder than silver and wears slowly. Since these were allegedly released 1934-35, many would have been saved in better grades as Buffalo nickels were replaced starting in 1938, and people in the 1940s and 50s saved the older type nickels.

We'll see if there are actual facts about this incident in Peekskill.

However, I just will also note that the arraignment was in Peekskill but this was a Federal prosecution, so ONLY the arraignment was likely at Peekskill. Next court appearance would have likely been in Federal Court in NY City.

jesbroken

I truly thank you for your trouble. This has become quite interesting to me and hopefully others. I would like to see the other newspaper accounts you have found, especially with the additional details.

Again, Thank you

Jim

sellitstore

I sent the town clerk an email asking if they have these records onsite.

They have an online form, so they are willing to answer questions. Hopefully I'll get an answer in a few days.

jesbroken

I received an email from the US Treasury regarding my FOIA request regarding the 1925/27/29 Buffalo Nickel counterfeit incident. They said that all records in this regard were kept by the US Mint and only they could help me. They also said that they had contacted the US Mint on my behalf and the mint would be contacting me shortly should any records of this incident exist. Oh well.

Jim

MJH

This 1927-S is a different looking Die than the 1916-S so-called skinny buffalo ,
I am not sure where they were minted, or by whom.

koynekwest

I've seen the 1927, it is quite crude but have never seen or heard of the other two. If these were made in those numbers you'd think they would be frequently seen today.



Christian-the '16-S die you refer to is the well known one and is quite common. They are never seen any better than Fine condition so the false dies were doubtlessly made from a well circulated coin.



MJH-that '27-S resembles the '16-S posted here in many ways-probably made by the same guy.

giantsfan20

the 1927 S was rotated on reverse? That would be a major clue finding where they came from?

NYbaby74

Two of the men involved in the counterfeiting of buffalo nickels in 1935 were my great uncle's cousins. Only in the last week or so have I learned of their crime. This was also a story my great uncle had passed down to his son and grandson. I would love to know more. According to my cousin (my great uncle's grandson), the group had found out that the feds were coming and dumped some of the nickels in wet cement and others were dumped in the nearby Greenwood lake.

NYbaby74

The Ehlers' brothers are relatives of mine. I have just recently found out about their crimes (counterfeiting coins was not their first). Once the counterfeiting ring came to an end, both of them straightened up and lead somewhat respectable lives. I would love to know more about this and the coins.

crazyhounddog

I have a 25 counterfeit buffalo nickel. Not sure if it's THEE counterfeit 25 your referring to but I think it more than likely is.

jesbroken

How about a good photo, Joe. I believe you are capable, lol.
Jim

crazyhounddog

Just as soon as I get a chance I will. It's a pretty good one as far as counterfeits go, I guess.

crazyhounddog

@jesbroken said:
How about a good photo, Joe. I believe you are capable, lol.
Jim

My mistake, I'm sorry. I have a 1925-D counterfeit. Not the counterfeit your referring to.

sal

does anyone hav photo of regular buff and the counterfeit one,thanks, u can txt me a photo pls, its 347737 004 2 this is a old new york number. AND IF U NEED HELP ON COINS, ASK ME ANYTIME

jesbroken

I never received any photos nor information from Secret Service in these coins regards. Would love to have a photograph of any one of the 3 dates, but not likely for some reason.
Jim

ricko

I forgot all about these counterfeit Buffalo nickels... seems the thread died five years ago and no further information. I have a lot of old circulated Buffs... would love to get the PUP's of the counterfeits to see if I have any.... Cheers, RickO