Should PED users be honored as HOFers?
craig44
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in Sports Talk
So we have had a spirited discussion about Ortiz on the subject of PEDs. How about we open it up and talk in general. Should PED users be honored as HOFers? Should they be considered as legitimate record holders? (Ie Bonds with the home run record) Should their awards be honored or should they be stripped of mvp and cy young awards like lance Armstrong was with his tour championships?
I think their records and awards are illegitimate. I would not be opposed to them being stripped of awards and honors. As far as the hall of fame, are you kidding? No way. What say you?
I think their records and awards are illegitimate. I would not be opposed to them being stripped of awards and honors. As far as the hall of fame, are you kidding? No way. What say you?
George Brett, Roger Clemens and Tommy Brady.
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"Be who you are and say what you feel, because those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind." Dr. Seuss
And yeah, I'm a Boston fan. And yes, I believe Ortiz is likely using. He has no business in the Hall of Fame, ever. He and any other player ever found guilty of using banned substances. If MLB truly cared about it, they'd do something about it. That he's having the season he is should tell you just how dedicated they are to the ideal of a PED-less sport. Maybe I'm just a cynic, but I believe usage to be so wide spread and that so many popular star players would end up banned that the viewership (and revenue, naturally) would absolutely plummet.
PED players will quite likely end up in the Hall regardless of what we all think. May be a few in there already. Who knows for sure?
This is the game we have now, for better or worse.
As a voter, I wouldn't vote for anyone that I had any significant suspicions about until, for whatever reason, I no longer had those suspicions. If that means a player has to wait a generation or longer to get in, so be it.
This is exactly what has been happening.
mark
Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
No one has ever told him what he tested positive for in 2003. Does that sound fair? How do you defend that?
He was subsequently tested for PED's and passed every test. He says about 80 times.
Up to the point when he was tested in 2003 over the counter supplements were common place. I used to get my full blown HGH's at GNC in 2001 & 2002. I bought anything that could help me train longer that was readily available over the counter. I actually find it plausible that Ortiz could have triggered a positive by taking any combination of over the counter products with zero intent on "cheating" and I'm not even sure you can call it cheating with a clear conscious.
Nothing Ortiz could say or do would make one change their stance on him once they dig their heels in labeling him a cheater. It's easier to just rally behind the one "positive" test in 2003 then look beyond that. I get it. People, are generally skeptical in nature. I don't fault their reasoning either.
mark
Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
George Brett, Roger Clemens and Tommy Brady.
Eyeroll if you wish but you cannot deny that Ortiz has never been suspended with a testing program in place. You never saw a mention of his name in any other scandal. He's either clean now and has been clean or he's the world's best doper.
Tell me. What did he test positive for in 2003? Answer me that and then maybe we find some common ground.
What exact substances were banned in 2003? I offer to you almost all professional athletes will push training to the limits of the law IF they know what the law is. What was the line in the sand in 2003? How would you know if you crossed it? How would you even know if you were near it? You can't even say where the line was. In the drug testing "Survey of 2003 " was every single major leaguer tested? There were 100 others who tested positive for "something" yet their names were never released. Is there a chance that Griffey, Piazza, Pudge etc were on the list? Do they deserve to be painted with the same brush? Only a handful of names were leaked. I find that very odd.
Until MLB tests everybody in the same way for defined substances and exacts the same punishment then it's just luck of the draw and casts a shadow on anyone that over performs.
Davis Ortiz isn't the problem. MLB is their own worst enemy.
mark
Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
As far as what he used, the day the test was revealed, ortiz vowed to get to the bottom of it and find out what the substance was and release it publicly. Well, surprise surprise, he never revealed what he tested positive for. I wonder why... we should definitely give him a free pass, it was only once right... we will pile on all the bad ped guys like bonds and Clemens, you know, the ones who never failed any drug tests.
Mark, do you believe bonds and Clemens doped? And if so, what is the difference between them and Ortiz? Why are ortiz's stats any more legitimate than theirs. His stats are as fraudulent as theirs even if he does miss babies and joke with the media. His stats along with the rest of the PED crew are meaningless.
George Brett, Roger Clemens and Tommy Brady.
George Brett, Roger Clemens and Tommy Brady.
Mark, you can't look past the positive test for Ortiz. It is damning hard evidence. You really don't think he is on hgh or some other undetectable PED? It seems totally reasonable for him to have the type of stats he has this year naturally. Sure. I think any awards known cheaters won should be revoked. It happens all the time in other sports. college football, cycling etc. I think canseco, caminitti and giambi should have to give up their mvps. Just think, had giambi not been awarded a fraudulent mvp, frank thomas would be a three time award winner.
How do we know Frank Thomas wasn't using PEDs, either? No one is above suspicion from that era. It would be naïve to think otherwise.
And that is my issue with the witch hunt for steroid abusers. There are the obvious suspects, sure, but plenty of others who were using off the radar, too. PEDs are simply inextricable with the era itself.
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
Of course some players are above suspicion. Those players who have never failed a test and there is no circumstantial or statistical evidence are above suspicion for me. There are a number of stars from the 90's who don't fit the PED profile and I don't think there is a problem assuming they were clean. It's not a witch hunt, there is no spectral evidence here. Do you not think it's fair to label bonds, Clemens and the like as users even without a failed test?
George Brett, Roger Clemens and Tommy Brady.
Mark, you can't look past the positive test for Ortiz. It is damning hard evidence. You really don't think he is on hgh or some other undetectable PED? It seems totally reasonable for him to have the type of stats he has this year naturally. Sure. I think any awards known cheaters won should be revoked. It happens all the time in other sports. college football, cycling etc. I think canseco, caminitti and giambi should have to give up their mvps. Just think, had giambi not been awarded a fraudulent mvp, frank thomas would be a three time award winner.
How do we know Frank Thomas wasn't using PEDs, either? No one is above suspicion from that era. It would be naïve to think otherwise.
And that is my issue with the witch hunt for steroid abusers. There are the obvious suspects, sure, but plenty of others who were using off the radar, too. PEDs are simply inextricable with the era itself.
There were 100 other players who tested positive for something. That is an average of three per team. Anyone who played during this era is suspect.
mark
Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
You simply cannot assume a guy was clean because his head didn't enlarge like Bonds' did.
It is naïve to believe a guy was clean just because he didn't fail a drug test. Clemens never failed one, either. No player that played in that era is above suspicion. No one.
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
Mark, you do realize that there are scientists in labs all over the world who's career is to develop new and better peds for athletes to beat testing programs right? You also must realize that drug testing, by definition is defensive in implementation and is always behind the newest science. It is impossible to test for something that you have never encountered right? Players are still not tested for hgh and synthetic testosterone can be administered either by cream or dissolving lozenges who's effect is immediate and is undetectable after just a few hours. just long enough to get a workout in. It is very very difficult to catch a player with drug testing. Anabolic steroids are really a thing of the past. Because of this, one of the best ways to determine who is cheating is statistical evidence. Ortiz fails the statistical sniff test by spades. That is on top of an actual failed drug test in 2003
As far as what he used, the day the test was revealed, ortiz vowed to get to the bottom of it and find out what the substance was and release it publicly. Well, surprise surprise, he never revealed what he tested positive for. I wonder why...
Statistical evidence? That's all you have? Your standard? Or is there an automatic standard that means 100% accuracy in determining someone is cheating?
Ortiz vowed to clear his name as he had no idea what triggered the positive test. Wonder why? No one told him what he tested positive for. How you going to clear your name in that environment? How do you clear your name if in fact you dont know what you did wrong. How do you challenge it? You don't. You can't.
So I'll ask again. What did he test positive for?
mark
Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
That is the problem with the steroid witch hunt. You have people making determinations on players based on suspicion and not fact or by what players fit your definition of the PED profile.
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
Mark, you do realize that there are scientists in labs all over the world who's career is to develop new and better peds for athletes to beat testing programs right? You also must realize that drug testing, by definition is defensive in implementation and is always behind the newest science. It is impossible to test for something that you have never encountered right? Players are still not tested for hgh and synthetic testosterone can be administered either by cream or dissolving lozenges who's effect is immediate and is undetectable after just a few hours. just long enough to get a workout in. It is very very difficult to catch a player with drug testing. Anabolic steroids are really a thing of the past. Because of this, one of the best ways to determine who is cheating is statistical evidence. Ortiz fails the statistical sniff test by spades. That is on top of an actual failed drug test in 2003
As far as what he used, the day the test was revealed, ortiz vowed to get to the bottom of it and find out what the substance was and release it publicly. Well, surprise surprise, he never revealed what he tested positive for. I wonder why...
Statistical evidence? That's all you have? Your standard? Or is there an automatic standard that means 100% accuracy in determining someone is cheating?
Ortiz vowed to clear his name as he had no idea what triggered the positive test. Wonder why? No one told him what he tested positive for. How you going to clear your name in that environment? How do you clear your name if it fact you dont know what he did wrong. How do you challenge it? You don't. You can't.
So I'll ask again. What did he test positive for?
mark
No need for proof when you are the judge, jury and executioner.
For the record, I do not support players who used PEDs or who cheated. I just think that we are on a slippery slope when we start employing a litmus test based on one's notion of a "PED profile" when deciding if a player's performance is legitimate or not.
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
George Brett, Roger Clemens and Tommy Brady.
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
Mark, what are the indications of ped use? Let me answer for you. There can be a marked change in physique. There is always an increase in performance. Normally that increase is in the mid 30's to well into the players 40's. Why would a player who exhibits none of these traits be suspect? Just because you say so? What is you criteria? It sounds like you don't have any, you just want to throw a blanket over everyone and say they are all suspect. Talk about a witch hunt...
You're a hoot.
Hard to take you serious at this point. Seems like it's just agenda time for you.
So what did he test positive for again?
mark
Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
Actually, it is somewhat of a misconception that most PEDs increase mass or muscular physique. Most of the players testing positive over the past few years are relatively slight in build, younger players (as opposed to older players looking for a resurgence) and not your typical sluggers or power pitchers by any means.
Yah, statistically it's more likely it's a guy at the end of the roster fighting for his livelihood that's using. Roster spot 25.
mark
Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
George Brett, Roger Clemens and Tommy Brady.
Actually, it is somewhat of a misconception that most PEDs increase mass or muscular physique. Most of the players testing positive over the past few years are relatively slight in build, younger players (as opposed to older players looking for a resurgence) and not your typical sluggers or power pitchers by any means.
Yah, statistically it's more likely it's a guy at the end of the roster fighting for his livelihood that's using. Roster spot 25.
mark
Exactly.
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
I don't have a problem with piazza. No failed test or marked increase in performance.
What about his back acne? That was the talk of the town when he was launching 400 foot missiles to the opposite field after being a 62nd round draft pick.
For the record, I don't have a problem with Piazza getting into the HOF, either. But it goes to show you how easily a player's reputation can be tainted. Piazza is a slam dunk first ballot HOFer witout the steroid suspicions, so I guess he must have fit someone else's PED profile, then.
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
I really think you are living in some kind of fantasy world friend. Of course he is juicing.
George Brett, Roger Clemens and Tommy Brady.
George Brett, Roger Clemens and Tommy Brady.
What about it? Where is the increased performance that would indicate PED use? I feel you are grasping at straws here
If there is no basis for steroid suspicion, why did a slam dunk HOFer like Piazza have to wait several years for induction?
I'll give you a hint, it has to do with the subjective interpretation of that PED model you spoke about earlier. Apparently, it is open to interpretation.
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
Mark, Ortiz never released what he tested positive for. How would I know. He vowed to release to the public what the substance was when he found out. Do you really think he never found out what it was? Come on. Whatever it was, he didn't want the world to know about it.
I really think you are living in some kind of fantasy world friend. Of course he is juicing.
He was not told what he tested positive for. Can't spell it out clearer then that.
I'm open to the fact he may have cheated. I'm not sold on it so I'll give him the benefit of the doubt. He he tests positive again I'll eat crow.
It must be nice to know with 100% certainly that he is using now. MLB should use your gift
Anyways nothing new in this thread. I'm going to try not to build it any further for you.
Like your statement, " of course he is juicing" has any merit. Meaningless.
mark
Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
George Brett, Roger Clemens and Tommy Brady.
So, for example, do you think bonds juiced? If so, why? He is a very clear example of a ped user without a failed test. So let's hear it, what are your criteria?
George Brett, Roger Clemens and Tommy Brady.
Grote, what are your criteria for PED use? You throw out blanket statements and cliches but don't really choose a side. We can't be lazy and just say well, everyone is under suspicion because everyone isn't. It seems as though you think we can't deduce who was a probable PED user unless we have a failed test. Of course we can on a case by case basis. We can't throw a net over everyone and say, well they all may have done it, that is reckless.
So, for example, do you think bonds juiced? If so, why? He is a very clear example of a ped user without a failed test. So let's hear it, what are your criteria?
What blanket statements? I have, in fact, been quite clear and explicit in my posts. No one who played during the steroid era is immune from scrutiny. Of course, there are players less likely to have used than the universally accepted list of steroid cheats, but it is foolish of you to summarily dismiss the possibility that a player did not use PEDs (or conversely, used PEDs) at any point in time because they do not fit, in your words, the "PED profile". It is naive to believe otherwise. You say you have no problem with Piazza being inducted yet there are many who do believe that Piazza juiced. That is why he didn't get voted into the Hall as soon as he otherwise would have. And that is my problem with this assessment of who used or who didn't~sure there are some players who you can probably "safely" categorize one way or another, but there are other players, like Piazza, who are more problematic. There's nothing lazy or general or cliched about it~if you feel you are the one to make the determination as to who used or is using and who hasn't, that is your right as a fan. I just think that such opinions are subjective and not always not rooted in fact, especially absent a failed drug test.
Your question regarding Bonds and whether he used steroids is simply a scarecrow argument~the voters have already made their decision, and at least to this point, have not endowed upon him the honor of HOF induction due to his link with PEDs, so it really doesn't matter what I think (as Johnny Bench once said when questioned about Pete Rose and his HOF chances). And to be perfectly frank and with all due respect, the steroid debate itself has become wearisome over the years for most fans. But if you want to volunteer to be the official CU HOF Steroid Assessor, by all means, go for it, LOL..
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
Seems like a blanket statement to me.
George Brett, Roger Clemens and Tommy Brady.
So again, do you think bonds juiced? If so, why? In am sincerely interested in your answer.
George Brett, Roger Clemens and Tommy Brady.
"No one is above suspicion from that era"
Seems like a blanket statement to me.
You call it a blanket statement, I call it a fact.
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
Of course it's lazy to throw a net over a whole era of players as you have. I am not saying I have all the answers, but at least I have some sort of methodology. You are giving politician answers without actually answering the question.
So again, do you think bonds juiced? If so, why? In am sincerely interested in your answer.
Sigh. What does it matter what I think about Bonds? Anyone who follows the game knows that he was using PEDs. Bonds HIMSELF even admitted to using "the cream" (albeit unknowingly) in his testimony during the BALCO case.
What you are failing to understand is that for every Bonds and Sosa there are guys like Piazza and Bagwell who are dogged by suspicion, though never proven to be PED users. If I'm one of those players and I didn't use PEDs I sure wouldn't want some fan's "PED profile" to determine whether I am guilty or not. It already cost Piazza the first ballot HOF election he would have achieved. Why were you fine with him being inducted when so many weren't and believed he was using? Different PED profiles?
Face it, the topic of this thread is a dead horse that has long since been beaten over and over and over again.
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
What does it matter what you think about bonds? Well, this is a sports discussion forum and I was interested
My methods are not full proof, no one's are, but there are some cases that seem pretty clear cut. Like bonds, Clemens and Ortiz. Do I know if troy oleary was juicing 20 years ago? Nope, but I can look at a star player like bonds and see the statistical evidence and be pretty sure. You can too, whether you want to admit it or not.
George Brett, Roger Clemens and Tommy Brady.
If this topic is such a dead horse and you are clearly tired of the subject, why are you reading it?
What does it matter what you think about bonds? Well, this is a sports discussion forum and I was interested
My methods are not full proof, no one's are, but there are some cases that seem pretty clear cut. Like bonds, Clemens and Ortiz. Do I know if troy oleary was juicing 20 years ago? Nope, but I can look at a star player like bonds and see the statistical evidence and be pretty sure. You can too, whether you want to admit it or not.
Why do you have to look at Bonds if he admitted it? What you are doing is deciding that anyone who seems similar to Bonds is guilty.
Baseball has structured testing so no one , unless they are really stupid, should ever fail , because they don't want anyone caught. They don't care about PED's , baseball is a dying sport they don't want any more negative attention that would hurt the bottom line.
Link
"Be who you are and say what you feel, because those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind." Dr. Seuss
George Brett, Roger Clemens and Tommy Brady.
George Brett, Roger Clemens and Tommy Brady.
Piazza took andro. Andro is not a steroid. In fact, after testing was done in 1999, it was determined that andro was a bust. It was supposed to increase testosterone. In fact, it did just the opposite bin males, it increased estrogen production. So instead of being a bodybuilding supplement, it actually hurt the building of lean tissue.
It's banned and literally classified as a steroid:
"Today, Androstenedione is classified as an “anabolic steroid” by the U.S. government, per the “Anabolic Steroid Control Act of 2004.” However, many medical professionals refer to it as a “steroid hormone,” “designer steroid,” “androgenic steroid,” and/or “steroid precursor.” Probably the most fitting descriptor is “prohormone,” which means it synthetically amplifies the effects of hormones. In other words, Andro is NOT synthetic testosterone, but its intention is to increase hormones in the body that will in turn increase testosterone production. "
It is also the same exact substance that Mark McGwire used... I guess he's another that never took steroids? If he were to take it today, he would be suspended for PED use.
Also, it serves no purpose other than to cheat. Mike Piazza either cheated, or tried to cheat. Either way, he took steroids.
"Be who you are and say what you feel, because those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind." Dr. Seuss
Piazza took andro. Andro is not a steroid. In fact, after testing was done in 1999, it was determined that andro was a bust. It was supposed to increase testosterone. In fact, it did just the opposite bin males, it increased estrogen production. So instead of being a bodybuilding supplement, it actually hurt the building of lean tissue.
So what? He took it because he thought it would help. That shows intent to cheat . In spite of that you are willing to give him a pass but you spend 50 posts lambasting Ortiz. You are applying your own standards unevenly.
George Brett, Roger Clemens and Tommy Brady.
At the time mcgwire and piazza and whoever else was taking andro in the late 90's, it was an ingredient in over the counter supplements found in places like gnc. It was not and is not an anabolic steroid. It was meant to increase testosterone and in that department it failed. It is in a whole other ballpark than steroids, hgh, synthetic testosterone etc. It is no different than any number of supplements found in gnc today. if a substance was legal, then is not legal, should the player be punished? Anabolic steroids have always been illegal in baseball as they were lumped into the illegal drug clause that has been collectively bargained for years.
Geez, I didn't realize we had an expert on the subject. I'll call the FDA and make sure they are aware their classification is wrong.
Either way, apply your argument evenly. David Ortiz tested positive for a nutritional supplement available over the counter that was legal at the time he took the survey.
But it doesn't matter, steroids (including andro) has been banned since 1991 it just wasn't considered a steroid until later.
"Be who you are and say what you feel, because those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind." Dr. Seuss
George Brett, Roger Clemens and Tommy Brady.
George Brett, Roger Clemens and Tommy Brady.
Do you know what Ortiz tested positive for? That's interesting. Must just be the mlb players union head, mlb, David Ortiz and you. You must have some connections.
Apparently Andro, how ironic.
"believed I had nothing to be afraid of,’’ Ortiz said. “I never thought I could buy anything over the counter that would get me in trouble.’’
Only later did he learn that his legally available supplements may have contained ingredients such as androstenedione, which had been banned by numerous sports at the time but not by baseball.
Ortiz would not want to be remembered as having used “andro,’’ the compound that a muscled-up Mark McGwire famously credited with helping him hit 70 home runs in 1998. Baseball banned the substance in 2004.
Nor would Ortiz want to be known for ingesting nandrolone, a steroid that several medical specialists said may have caused some positive tests in 2003 for players using over-the-counter supplements. Nandrolone has been linked to purported doping cheaters such as Bonds. It also was outlawed by baseball in ’04."
Link
"Be who you are and say what you feel, because those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind." Dr. Seuss
I was unaware of the piazza andro admission until about an hour or two ago. The little I researched said it wasn't a steroid however, if I am wrong and it is, then by all means, piazza gets added to the PED crew
Yeah no problem! Personally, I'm not one to judge steroid use. I remember back in the day taking my roommates ADHD meds to pass my finals. It's too difficult to figure out who did and who didn't, so just drop the subject and let Barry Bonds, probably the greatest player based solely on stats of all time.
"Be who you are and say what you feel, because those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind." Dr. Seuss
George Brett, Roger Clemens and Tommy Brady.
George Brett, Roger Clemens and Tommy Brady.
Fast forward to Big Mac's HOF first eligibility enshrinement vote. As I recall, it was about 22%, FAR away from being elected. For a few years I kept track, and the percentage stayed about there. Very glaring. Very condemning. Very indicative of what the voters thought about Mark McGwire. I don't know what the percentage has been running the last five years, but he's not in, nor ever should be. Now he's labeled as a cheater, and rightly so. That's no different than any of the Black Sox who actually did throw the 1919 World Series.
Also, a dire message had to be sent to all the youth who wanted to be just like Big Mac, some of whom could not handle the affects of the drugs emotionally, psychologically, and of course physically. A few of them took their lives, which ought to mean A GREAT DEAL TO MLB! I well remember the mother of one such young man who committed suicide because of using PEDS; she was featured in SPORTS ILLUSTRATED. She may have been the lady who spoke at the Congressional hearings about the matter, in which Big Mac lied to the Grand Jury.
My thread response was not meant to be just about Mark McGwire. I remembered enough about him to comment, and he's the catalyst; let's face it.
So, again. long to short, no, keep them out, period. --Brian Powell