Why such love for David Ortiz?
craig44
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in Sports Talk
Watching the pregame gushing over ortiz and I am left wondering just why so much love for this particular PED user? I can't think of another of the PED crew as beloved as Ortiz. Is it because of his love for the media? I am just not sure. They were talking about his hof candidacy as if the PED stuff is forgotten. I guess he has a Teflon coating. To me, there is no way he belongs in Cooperstown. Does anyone else find it suspicious that he is having his best year at the age of 40 with two bad feet? They still don't test for hgh.
George Brett, Roger Clemens and Tommy Brady.
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Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
PEDs don't put the bat on the ball.
He has mastered the art of hitting
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FB & BB HOF Player sets
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I love big Papi
PEDs don't put the bat on the ball.
You don't think PEDS helped mcgwire, bonds and sosa? Denial much?
The last player who dominated the league like this at age 40 was, you guessed it, Barry bonds.
Ortiz is just another PED guy. Likeable, but still a cheater who should never sniff the hall. And this coming from 30 year sox fan.
George Brett, Roger Clemens and Tommy Brady.
When your nickname is Big Papi you get a pass. It's that simple.
mark
+1
His speech to the crowd after the Boston bombing, complete with expletives also endeared him to many.
Sometimes, the personality is as big as the player. He is the anti-Bonds~not surly with fans or the media~and he also had some huge games in the postseason and was instrumental in bringing home World Series championships to the city of Boston.
This upcoming HOF vote will be a telling one. As we are witnessing a changing of the guard with respect to the HOF voting demographics, we will see if players like Bonds or Clemens realize a bump in their voting percentage. For many younger fans, the PED issues are not as abhorrent and many view it as just another era in baseball and should be simply viewed in that context. I'm not saying I agree with that viewpoint, but it is out there.
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
George Brett, Roger Clemens and Tommy Brady.
And he shouldn't be compared to Bonds, its Sosa who was great with the fans and media too. Why does Ortiz get a pass and Sosa get killed?
George Brett, Roger Clemens and Tommy Brady.
I think the perspective on PEDs has changed over the past decade or so. The next HOF vote will be a good barometer of just how much.
Ortiz is a fan favorite right now. Fans can be fickle with their adulation. I don't read too much into it, but unlike Bonds and Sosa, Ortiz also has multiple rings, too.
Perhaps Paul can chime in (perkdog). He's as big a Sox fan as I know on here
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
Sosa's love affair with the media and fans turned sour pretty quickly after he was exposed.
I think the perspective on PEDs has changed over the past decade or so. The next HOF vote will be a good barometer of just how much.
Ortiz is a fan favorite right now. Fans can be fickle with their adulation. I don't read too much into it, but unlike Bonds and Sosa, Ortiz also has multiple rings, too.
Perhaps Paul can chime in (perkdog). He's as big a Sox fan as I know on here
A lot can change during the 5 years before he is eligible
mark
Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
I think the perspective on PEDs has changed over the past decade or so. The next HOF vote will be a good barometer of just how much.
If all the PED guys start getting in then it would make more sense, but these guys are still pretty far away. Bonds and Clemens are still under 50% four years in. Sosa got just 7%.
I think the perspective on PEDs has changed over the past decade or so. The next HOF vote will be a good barometer of just how much.
If all the PED guys start getting in then it would make more sense, but these guys are still pretty far away. Bonds and Clemens are still under 50% four years in. Sosa got just 7%.
Bonds and Clemens may very well get in and this year's vote will be a good indicator of their chances. Both those guys were HOFers even without steroids. Sosa on the other hand is nowhere near the HOF without the juice.
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
Sosa, McGwire, Clemens and Bonds are examples of what can happen when the media abandons you. Your reputation is controlled by opinions, many of which belong to people who are paid to share them.
Control. You can believe what you want to believe. Or let them tell you.
Jim
George Brett, Roger Clemens and Tommy Brady.
George Brett, Roger Clemens and Tommy Brady.
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
I think for many fans the PED issue has become a wearisome topic of discussion. The problem with PEDs is that there is no way to know for sure who is using and who isn't (absent a failed drug test). NO player is above suspicion, imo. It would be naive to think otherwise.
I agree, and a few years ago the guys who have man love for Griff and Ripken refused to believe that it was possible that their heroes never touched the stuff, I'm not saying they did or didn't but you can't discount the possibility that they did.
You've done nothing but vilify Ortiz in your onging posts. You have become the self-appointed judge and jury of this thread...and your comment "I think it's pretty clear he is still using" is below bush league in my book. You only have an opinion, nothing more...do you have PROOF of your allegations? Do you really know he "has bad feet" and if so, what does that matter? I suspect if he did have "bad feet", whatever that is, wouldn't the prudent person surmise that he would be under doctor's care? He doesn't play a Xander-like position, he just swings a bat, with an occasional opportunity to hustle along the bases.
Ortiz failed a test in 2003, some 13 years ago. To my knowledge (yes I tried searching) he has not failed anything in all that time.
Sadly, you fail to recognize (though Paul did), Ortiz's clutch hitting performance throughout his time with the Red Sox...only what you perceive as negative stuff, ad nauseum. Then the thread dribbles into the real losers and comparisons are made to Ortiz's current performance against theirs...isn't the thread header "Why such love for David Ortiz?"...perhaps you should have written "Let's compare Ortiz to the other known PED users"...for this is what it has sadly come down to.
Ortiz is in the twilight of his time. He may well make Cooperstown, but for sure the day will come when #34 will be enshrined on the façade of the upper right field area of Fenway.
I think Ortiz's contributions to the Red Sox, and baseball on and off the field, far, FAR outway anything he may, or may not have done in his past.
I could just as easily condemn you for something that isn't true...so, so easy to hide behind a keyboard...I trust you get the comparison.
This from a way more than 50 year Red Sox fan.
St. Louis had no answer. Papi was in such a zone that it mattered not if the Cardinals brought in a lefty and stacked the right side; almost every at-bat he caught a pitch on the screws.
.688 BA, .760 OBP for the series. Will never forget that performance as long as I live.
you'll never be able to outrun a bad diet
As far as my "bad feet" comment, I was alluding to how very unlikely it is that Ortiz is in the midst of his greatest season while playing with two very injured/comprimised feet and doing it cleanly. That is why he is retiring at the end of the year by the way, his feet and Achilles are so bad.
I understand ortiz's "clutch" hitting feats. I watched them all. The difference between you and I is that I disregard them due to his PED use. Just as I disregard all the records and accolades of bonds, mcgwire, Clemens, sosa etc. Do you think bonds could have hit 73 homers without the juice? Of course not. Would Ortiz have performed in the clutch as he did without peds? Of course not. He probably would have continued his career on a similar trajectory as it was on when he was a twin. Isn't it amazing that when he becomes a teammate of Manny Ramirez, his statistics take a monumental leap, and then he fails a drug test.
Don't romanticize Ortiz. He was little more than an above average player until he was introduced to peds and became a hero. He is a cheat, and his statistics and clutch hitting were both artificially enhanced by drugs the same way as the rest of the "hated" ped crew. He just has an outgoing personality the media and fans seem to have latched on to. As far as comparing him to the rest of the ped guys, of course I do. Who else to compare him to? How else do we try to explain his standing without comparing him to others in the same situation ? I think your glasses are too rose colored to see ortiz for what he is, a drug cheat who accumulated false statistics and will never sniff the hof.
George Brett, Roger Clemens and Tommy Brady.
mark
Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
George Brett, Roger Clemens and Tommy Brady.
No, we can't single all players out, only the ones we KNOW about. We have circumstantial evidence about bonds and Clemens, but no failed drug tests for them. Most agree they were users without having hard evidence against them. We actually have hard evidence against Ortiz yet he still gets a pass. It is hard to understand. Does this mean that if bonds was popular with
The fans and press, he would be beloved by the masses? Bonds was a far far better player than Ortiz, yet his numbers are looked at as very tainted. Most dont even see him as the true home run king. Giving Ortiz the same treatment, why should we praise his clutch hitting any more than bonds records? Neither would have happened without peds.
Ortiz was simply a good player for the twins before joining the Sox and meeting mr Ramirez.
George Brett, Roger Clemens and Tommy Brady.
What I am saying perkdog is that Ortiz is no better than bonds, mcgwire, Clemens etc.
Three of the best players in modern baseball?
Steroid witch hunts were all the rage a decade ago, but as fans live and learn from their mistakes they are able to look back and marvel at the most exciting era in baseball history.
"Be who you are and say what you feel, because those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind." Dr. Seuss
George Brett, Roger Clemens and Tommy Brady.
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
George Brett, Roger Clemens and Tommy Brady.
Someone is clearly sour grapes over investing in the wrong players. Its so transparent it makes me laugh out loud at each post. Let's keep this one going!
Who would invest in Ortiz??? Lol!
baseball is america’s pastime.
a pastime is “an activity that someone does regularly for enjoyment rather than work; a hobby.”
in other words, a pastime should be fun.
ortiz epitomizes that.
ortiz's nickname is big papi; the big father.
while I’m sure ortiz plays to win, there is a certain reckless abandon with how he plays the game.
he goes to the plate hackin’; a good chance you’ll see him rake or strikeout.
99 hits this season and 57 are for extra bases; leading mlb in slg and ops.
ortiz plays for the red sox; even here we have a “the 2016 boston red sox” thread.
the next time we see an Oakland a’s thread or a kansas city royals thread (even though they are the defending ws champs) will be the first time.
take all that, how can ortiz not be loved?
I've started lots of Kansas City Royals threads.
Although I'm afraid I'm going to have to lose the Gordo avatar,
as he completely sucks this year and is no longer avatar worthy.
PED's helped him be able to play those years.
George Brett, Roger Clemens and Tommy Brady.
He is popular. Immensely so.
Why can't it just be possible that he's having a great season at 40?
Let's see.
He essentially hits for the pitcher every game, only has to yank a slider 308 feet to right so he can jog around the bases, and never needs to bend over or stretch to reach for a ball unless it happens to roll into the dugout.
Life is good.
Why can't it just be possible that he's having a great season at 40?
Let's see.
He essentially hits for the pitcher every game, only has to yank a slider 308 feet to right so he can jog around the bases, and never needs to bend over or stretch to reach for a ball unless it happens to roll into the dugout.
Life is good.
The point is that this has been Ortiz's job description for more or less his entire career. What he is doing at age 40 is unprecedented in the history of baseball. What he has done for the past several years has only Punkinhead Bonds as a precedent. Love him, hate him, ignore him as you see fit, but Ortiz is a cheater and it will be a shame if he is given the honor of HOF induction since the sport he has been playing isn't baseball.
Why can't it just be possible that he's having a great season at 40?
Let's see.
He essentially hits for the pitcher every game, only has to yank a slider 308 feet to right so he can jog around the bases, and never needs to bend over or stretch to reach for a ball unless it happens to roll into the dugout.
Life is good.
The point is that this has been Ortiz's job description for more or less his entire career. What he is doing at age 40 is unprecedented in the history of baseball. What he has done for the past several years has only Punkinhead Bonds as a precedent. Love him, hate him, ignore him as you see fit, but Ortiz is a cheater and it will be a shame if he is given the honor of HOF induction since the sport he has been playing isn't baseball.
Well then I Hate to break it to you but the game of baseball hasn't been played since the 80's then. And even then " Greenies" we're the preferred cheating drug. Edit: I see your point about him being the DH I thought you were referring to him cheating through PEDS my apologies for missing your point
The point is that this has been Ortiz's job description for more or less his entire career. What he is doing at age 40 is unprecedented in the history of baseball. What he has done for the past several years has only Punkinhead Bonds as a precedent. Love him, hate him, ignore him as you see fit, but Ortiz is a cheater and it will be a shame if he is given the honor of HOF induction since the sport he has been playing isn't baseball.
Not to ruin your day, but there are several current Hall of Famers who took steroids.
Nolan Ryan's ERA+ from ages 35-39 was 104, FIP of 2.99, k/9 8.9
Nolan Ryan's ERA + from ages 40-44 was 121, FIP of 2.72, k/9 10.6
Having a resurgence at the age of 40 is not unprecedented in baseball history.
"Be who you are and say what you feel, because those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind." Dr. Seuss
And how often do you see me post about anything that's happened since the 80's?
I don't know what the rules, if any, were with regard to "greenies" in baseball's past, but I do know that there's no evidence that they improved performance. Alcohol was illegal for awhile, and I know a lot of players were drinking, but since it was hindering, not helping, them there's no black mark on their stats.
Ortiz is a cheater, and he has put up better stats as a result of his cheating than he would have otherwise. A LOT better. I'm sure he's kind to children and puppies, and he may be a great human being and deserve all the praise that comes with that. But the HOF is an honor bestowed on people who played baseball better than most anyone else, and Ortiz is as deserving of that honor as Rosie Ruiz is of being in the Boston Marathon HOF. Speaking for all baseball fans, I say screw him.
You certainly do not speak for all baseball fans.
"Be who you are and say what you feel, because those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind." Dr. Seuss
Nolan Ryan's ERA+ from ages 35-39 was 104, FIP of 2.99, k/9 8.9
Nolan Ryan's ERA + from ages 40-44 was 121, FIP of 2.72, k/9 10.6
Having a resurgence at the age of 40 is not unprecedented in baseball history.
Spotting steroid use in hitters is child's play, at least if your eyes are open. In pitchers, it's a lot trickier. I obviously don't know if Ryan took any performance enhancers, and as with all things, it's possible. But I note that of the rare exceptions to the patterns that I laid out, the most common pattern is to stay flat throughout one's entire career.
You cherry picked ages to make it look like Ryan had a remarkable resurgence late in his career, but here's a different breakout:
25 and younger: ERA+ of 98
26-30: 117
31-35: 110
36-40: 111
41+ : 111
Ryan's career is very strange in that his best seasons came at 25, 30, 34, 40 and 44. His very best seasons were at 30 and 34, consistent with the ~age 31 peak that 99% of players have, but neither the rise to peak nor the decline afterward was at all dramatic, and both are littered with both good and bad seasons.
As I said, I don't know if Ryan ever cheated, but there is scant evidence that he did in the statistical record.
George Brett, Roger Clemens and Tommy Brady.
George Brett, Roger Clemens and Tommy Brady.
In baseball, steroids are against the rules; ergo, people using them are not playing baseball. You can be a fan of Ortiz, and whatever game it is that he's playing, but that game is not, by definition, "baseball" any more than what Rosie Ruiz ran in 1980 was a "marathon". I'm a baseball fan, you're a fan of the game Ortiz has been playing. I'm speaking for baseball fans. All of them.
In baseball, steroids are against the rules; ergo, people using them are not playing baseball. You can be a fan of Ortiz, and whatever game it is that he's playing, but that game is not, by definition, "baseball" any more than what Rosie Ruiz ran in 1980 was a "marathon". I'm a baseball fan, you're a fan of the game Ortiz has been playing. I'm speaking for baseball fans. All of them.
I completely disagree with this absurd statement.
"Be who you are and say what you feel, because those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind." Dr. Seuss