This 1964 Kennedy Half Dollar Accented Hair PCGS Proof-69 DCAM has the 'QA" sticker....only PR69DCAM

Goldbully

This should be quite an interesting auction.....the only PR69DCAM in existence.



I'm guessing $25k.....what do you think?





Last Bid: $18,000

Current Bid: $19,000

+ 10% Buyer's Premium





Quite a coin!!



Great Collections Link





QA Link

Connecticoin

I would guess closer to $20k. Still, that's a lot of extra dough for 1 grade point (probably a 1/2 grade point better than the better 68s), but that's what a pop 1/0 commands.

JazzmanJAB

Gorgeous Coin. Must have been one of the first 10 off the press.

CommemKing

Sure is a Beauty, but that's a lot off cash for a simple variety. There's about 100 coins I'd rather own for whatever the auction will end at.

I went through a proof Kennedy phase and owned several Accented Hairs. I think the best I had was a PCGS PR67CAM that looked all as good as the coin in the OP. That's why numbers like 69DCAM don't mean much to me. This all has to do with the graders fixing populations imho.


And who would get a "QA". Sticker? I thought CAC had little relevance. Geesh!

GaCoinGuy

While this is a nice coin, I don't think it should have made 69; theres rub on the ear and something funky going on under the A in Dollar.

IMHO. the 68DCAM Russ found is nicer.

Goldbully

Originally posted by: GaCoinGuy

While this is a nice coin, I don't think it should have made 69; theres rub on the ear and something funky going on under the A in Dollar.



IMHO. the 68DCAM Russ found is nicer.

I believe Russ got a little over $8k for his 68 in 2009. Very tidy profit since he picked it from a '64 Mint set.

ricko

I have a lot of AH's in mint envelopes... Russ and I used to chase them at coin shows in WA.

Not sure any are 69 DCAM's, but I suppose I should pull them out and look at them. Yep, one day when I have time... Cheers, RickO

SanctionII

I just looked at this thread.


A prior thread on this same coin and same auction was posted last week.


I copy here my reply to the prior thread:

"I just read this thread and since I enjoy the niche areas of 1950-1970 Proof and SMS coinage I took a peak at Coin Facts.

I assume the Coin Facts photo of the 1964 PF69 DCAM AH half dollar is the coin that is discussed in this thread (if my assumption is wrong let me know). A very eye appealing coin it is.

However, I would not view the coin to warrant a grade of 69. Too many flaws imo. The Coin Facts photo of a PF68 DCAM AH half dollar is very similar to the photo of the PF69.

Both the PF69 and PF68 coins in the photos exhibit flat areas on the obverse (the hair in front of and in top of the ear) and reverse (the vertical lines in the shield that are not fully struck up and that are weakly frosted at best. The PF69 coin also has horizontal trough running from let to right in the top part of the shield on the reverse.

Comparing the photos of the PF69 and PF68 DCAM AH half dollars shown in Coin Facts to Coin Facts photos of the PF69 CAM and the PF69 examples of the same coin reveals that the DCAM coins do not come close to the CAM and Brilliant coins. The CAM and Brilliant coins do not have the flat, weakly frosted hair on the obverse and have fully struck up and frosted shields on the reverse (with no horizontal trough).

Maybe I would think differently if I saw the Coin Facts coins in hand. However, from the photos of the DCAM PF69 and PF68 coins, I disagree with the numerical grade assigned to the coins (I still would love to own both coins, raw or slabbed however)."


It will be interesting to see what this 1964 PF69DCAM AH sells for later today.


BTW, It has been a very long time since I snooped around for proof sets. I did stop by a local shop on Friday and snagged a 1958 OGP proof set with a gorgeous Cameo half dollar sitting in the cello. Old Ben looks very frosty, even on his bald head. Nice to see cherries are still out there in the wild.

Connecticoin

Now at $21k with BP!

JCLIGHTBRIGADE

$25K was the coin facts estimate right?

segoja

First..this is NOT my coin.

This is one fantastic coin. If you have not had the coin in hand, I think it's very hard to comment.

First there is ABSOLUTELY NO rub on the ear. It's a minor frost break, which virtually all deep cameos of every date and denomination have a little of.

As far as hairlines spots etc. None.

As far as cameo contrast. it is absolutely the deepest accented hair I have ever seen. I have seen 3 or 4 of the 68's a few 67's and I currently own a 66. Not one holds a candle to this coin.

I have an over/under bet with another cameo dealer. Over/Under at $40,000 hammer. I have the under, but I think the $40K is pretty close. Guess we'll all find out in a few hours.

cmerlo1

Easily the nicest AH I've seen...

Zoins

Sold for $21,400.00!

Or $23,540 with BP.

Manorcourtman

Why would the owner not consign this to HA? Summer FUN or ANA seems much more appropriate for a modern whale like this. No disrespect intended to GC.

Manorcourtman

Originally posted by: CommemKing

Sure is a Beauty, but that's a lot off cash for a simple variety. There's about 100 coins I'd rather own for whatever the auction will end at.



I went through a proof Kennedy phase and owned several Accented Hairs. I think the best I had was a PCGS PR67CAM that looked all as good as the coin in the OP. That's why numbers like 69DCAM don't mean much to me. This all has to do with the graders fixing populations imho.





And who would get a "QA". Sticker? I thought CAC had little relevance. Geesh!

CAC does not accept Kennedy halves FYI.

Zoins

The sticker companies are:

CAC - US Classics
QA - US Moderns
WINGS - Dark Side

wondercoin

For some strange reason, Ian will not permit "dealers" to bid in his auction and use their credit cards? And, I put "dealers" in quotes because I personally have several dozen coin collections (mostly all registry sets) where I would like to buy coins at GC as a collector, which I am as it pertains to these sets and upgrading them. I only hope Ian changes his position on treating dealers with credit cards differently than collectors with credit cards so I can start bidding again routinely in his auctions. I know in this case, it would not matter about the credit card as I think the limit is $10,000 but I simply stopped bidding over there when I was told I needed to be treated differently than a collector bidding in the auction and using a credit card. I have watched modern coins sell at lower prices than I would have bid if I could simply use a credit card like anyone else. But, I won't generally bid in an auction where I perceive myself to be at a disadvantage (even if it is 2%). Again, I mention this, because I hope Ian changes his position.

Wondercoin

Goldbully

Originally posted by: wondercoin

For some strange reason, Ian will not permit "dealers" to bid in his auction and use their credit cards? And, I put "dealers" in quotes because I personally have several dozen coin collections (mostly all registry sets) where I would like to buy coins at GC as a collector, which I am as it pertains to these sets and upgrading them. I only hope Ian changes his position on treating dealers with credit cards differently than collectors with credit cards so I can start bidding again routinely in his auctions. I know in this case, it would not matter about the credit card as I think the limit is $10,000 but I simply stopped bidding over there when I was told I needed to be treated differently than a collector bidding in the auction and using a credit card. I have watched modern coins sell at lower prices than I would have bid if I could simply use a credit card like anyone else. But, I won't generally bid in an auction where I perceive myself to be at a disadvantage (even if it is 2%). Again, I mention this, because I hope Ian changes his position.



Wondercoin

Was this AH Kennedy on your bucket list WC?

wondercoin

Goldbully: Of course, it is a pop 1/0 coin in the Top 100 Moderns set for which I am the current #1 set holder at PCGS. So, I would have considered pursuing the coin. In a perfect world, the auction company might have called me and asked if I wanted to see it (or even ran it down to me for a look as I am just 5 minutes away every day). And, to be fair, I did not make that call either and I could have easily driven over there. Had I liked the coin once vetting it in person, I can assure you the winning bidder would not have won it at $21,000 hammer. That's for sure. But, who knows if I would have liked it. I am particular and the PR67DCAM in my current set I grade as a strong PR68DCAM (with ownership obviously adding 1 point). Wondercoin

braddick

Mitch, segoja's comments regarding this particular coin has me believe you WOULD now be the current owner of it as it is my experience his eye and tastes match yours within the modern world. You might be just a tad stricter, perhaps, yet this Kennedy
seems to have been a coin you would have chased after in a healthy and spirited way. At a minimum, with your involvement the now current new owner would have had to pay more.

I too believe as a true PR69DCAM anything under $30K is leaving money on the table and another will most assuredly not be forthcoming anytime soon.

segoja

Wondercoin - Do you also not bid in Heritage Auctions?

They treat dealers and collectors differently relative to credit card purchases?

Seems like you are only hurting you own collecting interests by not bidding in GC auctions.

wondercoin

Pat: I hear you loud and clear. And, I am not suggesting at all that I am a tad stricter (or less strict) than Segoja. I've bought some lovely coins this week, including a wonderful addition to my pattern nickel collection. Those additions come around maybe once a year. And, so my comment regarding GC was in no way intended as a "knock" against them. I truly wish they considered changing their policy so I would once again feel 100% comfortable bidding over there on a regular basis. I firmly believe it might not only possibly help me in the long run, but also GC's consignors' of top modern coins. Until then, I have in excess of $23,500 to spend next week on modern coins

Wondercoin

wondercoin

James: Thank you for your comment. Could you please elaborate on exactly how Heritage treats dealers and collectors differently with respect to credit card purchases? I am not aware of it. You can send me a PM if you desire or let me know right here.

I will tell you that I generally do virtually no bidding in the Heritage Internet weekly sales only because there is seldom anything there I can add to my sets. As you know, generally the sub $500-$750 coins are placed in the weekly sales. And, this is not to say that there are not GREAT coins being sold by Heritage weekly in their internet only sales.

When I spend money in their big sales, I was not aware that anyone (collector or dealer) could use a credit card other than perhaps for a very small purchase. But, I would like to know if I do not have that correct.

Wondercoin

ianrussell

Although this is getting off-topic, we don't allow credit cards from anyone on invoices over $10,000 - that has been our policy since day 1 (we just celebrated our 5th anniversary). Credit card fees is the one thing that jeopardizes our low fee structure - we're doing everything we can to maintain our buyer's fee at 10%, despite the 20-30 fee increase letters I've received from my merchant account provider since we launched GC - they are almost monthly.

Mitch, you are always welcome to view coins at our office - you drive by it on your way to PCGS! In fact, I think the last coin you were interested in we met on a weekend at the office so you could view.

The Kennedy was superb - and it now sets the world record for a Kennedy Half Dollar (surpassing the previous record set this year for a high grade MS coin). Congrats to the buyer and the consignor.

- Ian

wondercoin

Ian: Thank you and I did specifically acknowledge that there are no credit cards permitted for buys over $10,000. But I was referring to the sub-$10,000 coins and invoices. I was not aware that the policy changed so that anyone can once again use their credit cards for those purchases. Is that the case? Wondercoin

wondercoin

On a different subject, I believe the previous record for the sale of a Kennedy Half Dollar is the PR69 Kennedy from 1964 (SMS). Unofficially around $65,000 or so.

Wondercoin

ianrussell

Originally posted by: wondercoin
On a different subject, I believe the previous record for the sale of a Kennedy Half Dollar is the PR69 Kennedy from 1964 (SMS). Unofficially around $65,000 or so.

Wondercoin

No, we do not allow credit cards from dealers.

When did the 1964 sell? At auction? I thought I read in CoinWorld about a month ago about the Kennedy record at about $22k set by another auction record.

- Ian

Zoins

CoinWorld reported that Legend recently sold the "funkadelic" 1964-D PCGS MS-68 for $22,325 in their Regency XVI auction.

wondercoin

First, thank you for reconfirming the no credit cards from dealers policy. Again, when I am buying coins for my registry sets, I buy them strictly as a collector (some of the sets I have had personally for nearly 34 years now and still have 99% of the coins). I wish you reconsidered your policy especially when buyers are clearly wearing their "collector hat" in buying coins for coin series they collect. But, of course, you make the rules for your own auction house and I will respect them. And, yes, you have always been available for the lot viewing of any coins one wanted to see - thank you for that.

Regarding the sale of the top grade 1964 SMS half Dollar, the sale took place a few years ago in connection with the sale of a complete set of SMS 1964 coins (cent through half dollar) that had been marketed both privately and at auction before hand. I believe, the set failed to sell at the reserve at auction, but then sold privately shortly thereafter. As I recall, the record purchase price was announced in print in a few places, including possibly right here. I believe Coin World would have erred if they stating that MS68 coin set the record price for any Kennedy half dollar (I did not read the story so I do not know if they erred or not). It was very likely the record price for a regular issue Mint State Kennedy though.

If you would like the name of the dealer that sold the 1964 SMS coins for the record prices (who you are well acquainted with) just let me know. I also know the buyer of the coins (or at least his agent) and if you needed more information, I could also ask him if it would be OK for you to contact him. I believe you know him as well. But, the seller would probably be all you needed to speak with to confirm the roughly $65,000 sales price (if not even closer to $70,000 or so). Hope this helps.

Wondercoin

segoja

Heritage does not allow dealers to pay for any invoices with credit cards, no matter the amount (They do give you 14 days free credit...every little bit helps). Collectors are allowed to use credit cards, up to a certain value (I do not know the value, but I think it is $5000)

My point is that GreatCollections credit card policy is very similar to the industry standards, so if you shun GreatCollections, then you shun all industry auctions.

Also, the last I looked GreatCollections buyers premium was 7.5ppts below the other major auction houses.

Zoins

Good points segoja.

wondercoin

James: First, I clearly invited this conversation to be via PM, because this is NOT about any personal ill will or bad feelings directly against Ian or GC. Ian runs a wonderful business. This is in fact, nothing personal at all. It's simply about business and a business practice I believe is unfair. And, my desire in bringing it up at all is to make GC a stronger business, not a weaker one. Repeat, a stronger business.

First, I believe your information may be seriously outdated regarding Heritage and credit cards. A collector told me there is a convenience amount Heritage accepts, which he believes is a small fraction of the number your suggested. I have no problem with convenience amounts being offered to collectors assuming that is still the case over there (and you mention the trade off of 1/2 a month free credit to dealers in the process). It is not a significant amount of money either. On the other hand, 2 1/2% (see below) of $9,500 puts me at a $237.50 disadvantage on a coin when bidding in the auction. With all due respect, that's not pocket change.

Second, I am truly not "shunning" anyone. I am not aware of any "industry standard" that permits collectors to spend $9,999 on a credit card but not dealers - not a single one. In fact, James, how would you feel if the US Mint tomorrow told you that you could no longer use your credit card for US Mint purchases, as they just instituted a policy that only collectors could use their cards for US Mint purchases but not dealers? I would ask Ian the same question. But, obviously, I know the answer. Dealers would be up in arms I believe!

I have credit cards where my points are worth 2.5 cents each (minimum). That puts me at a 2 1/2% disadvantage to other bidders just because I am labeled a "dealer" in the bidding process. I personally think that is unfair. Obviously, Ian disagrees. Now, I have already stated that Ian is free to conduct his business any way he sees fit. And, I am going to honor and respect his decision and not challenge it in any way, shape or form.

I am also fine ending the conversation here (or after your reply). As a general rule, I will simply not bid in an auction where I am being placed at what I believe is a 2 1/2%++ disadvantage to other bidders. If the tables were turned, many collectors would feel the exact same way I believe. If, and when, the rule ever changes, I will be right back to bidding as strongly as ever in the auction on a multitude of coins. Again, there is absolutely nothing personal here. It's simply business.

Wondercoin

291fifth

$23,450 for a 1964 Kennedy Half Proof ...

braddick

I believe it is possible GC may be in violation of some credit card's policy and procedures. To exclude one group from using a CC while allowing another (thus giving them an advantage) may violate those terms the CC merchant who accepts the card agreed to.

Just a thought: I know CC's such as AMEX is pretty strict with enforcement. Might be worth checking out.

RegistryCoin

It is unfair to dealers, but more importantly consignors get screwed because top auction prices ate not reached!
As a buyer (collector only!) and bidder, I reduce my bids when levels are reach where auction houses won't allow use of my CC.
I hate buying a coin when I am not allowed to use my CC!!! And try to do it as little as possible!!!

wondercoin

Pat. I believe you could be correct. The AMEX Merchant Service Agreement a vendor signs quite possibly dictates the answer though. I can imagine a company like Costco might have its own special terms with AMEX (perhaps GC as well). On the other hand, who knows just how strict AMEX is about ensuring that their cardholders cards are accepted everywhere a vendor accepts AMEX. Costco and AMEX just parted ways.

Final comment... I am not the only modern dealer I am aware of not bidding any longer over there because of this credit card policy excluding dealers from using their credit card, while, at the same time, allowing collectors to use theirs on coins up to $9,999. Does it make sense that an auction company wants to possibly exclude any bids from dealers? That is Ian's call entirely. But, the irony is if the collector wins a coin at $9,750 he/she may very likely use the credit card anyway. But, if the dealer participated for example and the coin hypothetically ended at $11,000 instead neither one of them could use the card fairly.

Wondercoin.

TwoSides2aCoin

Top coins for top dogs, no doubt.

telephoto1

Some here seem to forget that the merchant pays significant fees for allowing you to use cards. I was just looking at our statement the other day in fact. It adds up quickly. GC charges lesser fees than other houses so that 2-3% processing hit on cards makes a bigger difference in their bottom line. I can see wanting to minimize that impact. Dealers arguably aren't going to be paying as much for a given item as they need to leave room for profit margin...compared with collectors who in many cases are willing to pay retail or slightly stronger to own the piece. Obviously there are exceptions to this; some dealers will pay over market on certain items... but all in all, frankly I understand Ian's position perfectly as it pertains to card usage. Plus, frankly if you're a dealer and want to deal in five digit items you should be capitalized well enough or have a good enough credit line with your banker to be able to write a $10k check. jmho

braddick

Originally posted by: telephoto1
Some here seem to forget that the merchant pays significant fees for allowing you to use cards. I was just looking at our statement the other day in fact. It adds up quickly. GC charges lesser fees than other houses so that 2-3% processing hit on cards makes a bigger difference in their bottom line. I can see wanting to minimize that impact. Dealers arguably aren't going to be paying as much for a given item as they need to leave room for profit margin...compared with collectors who in many cases are willing to pay retail or slightly stronger to own the piece. Obviously there are exceptions to this; some dealers will pay over market on certain items... but all in all, frankly I understand Ian's position perfectly as it pertains to card usage. Plus, frankly if you're a dealer and want to deal in five digit items you should be capitalized well enough or have a good enough credit line with your banker to be able to write a $10k check. jmho

Unless I understand it wrong- it's the highest bidder that wins the coin, regardless of if it's a collector or a dealer, or a dealer who is at the moment a collector. I'd think the bottom line of any auction firm is to garner the highest price possible for the consigner. Thus also allowing the firm to maximize their own profits.

Not allowing a subset of bidders (in this case, dealers) to bid with the same advantage of a collector is not only unfair it doesn't meet the endgame goals for both parties.

Plus, as stated above, it is potentially not simply unfair but perhaps a violation of the terms the merchant agreed to.

RegistryCoin

Telephoto. Would you change your analysis any if dealers could not use a credit card on any purchase, not just those over $10,000?
The five figure cut off is for collectors only.

wondercoin

"Plus, frankly if you're a dealer and want to deal in five digit items you should be capitalized well enough or have a good enough credit line with your banker to be able to write a $10k check. jmho"

Telephoto1 - Frankly, if you're a collector and want to collect five digit items you should be capitalized well enough or have a good enough credit line with your banker to be able to write a $10k check. jmho".

No?

This has absolutely nothing to do with "capitalization" - from the collector or dealer side (at least in my case). Anyway, that is my final word on the subject. I'm back to buying coins directly from folks!

Wondercoin

MonsterCoinz

I think it would be in GC's best interest to allow dealers the option to pay the 2-3% extra than from keeping them from being able to use their CC, and thus, lose their bid entirely.



But this thread has derailed completely. 23k for a Kennedy half, WOW

SanctionII

For top pop moderns, such as the coin which is the subject of this thread, how has the market for same performed over the last 10 years? Steady increase, flat, steady decrease or up and down prices being realized?

I know that collectors the are older (by their age and/or the number of years they have collected) view post 1933, post WWII, post 1964, or post silver in circulating coinage as "moderns" that are not worth collecting. However as time passes more people entering the hobby may not view these coins as modern. They will not have a built in reluctance to collect these coins. The natural desire to seek out the best will manifest itself in high prices (like that paid yesterday for the Kennedy half) being realized for coins in the modern market.

It will be interesting to see how this market performs in the coming years.

Zoins

I agree with SanctionII. Many collectors today probably have never seen a silver Kennedy in circulation, and perhaps not even a clad one.

joeykoins

What a superb and very Beautiful Coin! and I might add, what a superb and very Beautiful "variety" and "Cameo"! This coin is the perfect example of what is escaping out of Dealers hands that don't care about varieties/error coins. This coin is a great example of a "Modern Coin" that is extremely, in high demand. So much for unbelievers of the Modern coin, huh? Nice coin for our hobby library.-joey
One more thing... Just think, there still can be that elusive "70" Kennedy AH Cameo out there somewhere?

Zoins

There were some estimates that this would go for up to $40k. Any ideas on why it didn't hit those targets?

MonsterCoinz

Originally posted by: Zoins

There were some estimates that this would go for up to $40k. Any ideas on why it didn't hit those targets?

Bc Wondercoin didn't bid.

telephoto1

Bottom line for me is that if someone wants something badly enough, be it dealer or collector, they won't let something like this dissuade them. I think the impact on GC's business will be negligible.

Aside to Wondercoin-Collectors aren't doing this as a business. If you're a dealer (myself included) and want to do this for a living, then having sufficient operating capital is part of the business model. Business 101.

telephoto1

Originally posted by: Zoins
There were some estimates that this would go for up to $40k. Any ideas on why it didn't hit those targets?

Those frost breaks for starters. It's a nice coin, don't get me wrong... but I don't see 69 there. To the casual observer it looks scuffy. If they were on the reverse it might be different, but your eye goes right to them. JMHO

PutTogether

1) I don't think wondercoin's issue with GC taking credit cards has anything at all to do with capitalization issues. It simply appears that given a choice between cash and card - he'd prefer to use card. Who among us wouldn't? Points, protection, float......a credit card is nearly always preferable to cash from the perspective of the buyer of a good or a service.

2) His particular issue seems to be being denied the use of a CC because of his status as a dealer. The complaint is that he doesn't want to compete in an auction where someone else can use a card and he can't. I can understand the argument. If I were a potential bidder, and was being forced to pay in cash, I would prefer my competition also have to operate under the same constraints.

3) Great Collection's policy is that no one, dealer or otherwise, can pay with a credit card for an invoice over $10,000. It was obvious from the beginning that the auction would result in a price above $10,000. No one bidding to win this auction would have been at a tactical disadvantage because their competition was allowed use of a credit card while they themselves were denied.

4) Since the issue was irrelevant to this auction - complaining about the issue in the context of this thread is kind of a non sequitur. If Wondercoin doesn't like Great Collection's policy - so be it. The argument against the policy is fair. Bringing up the argument in the middle of a discussion about a particular coin does however seem a little inappropriate, if only because of Wondercoin's excellent stature and reputation. While he expressed it in an extremely professional and classy manner, his opinion does carry weight. Because of this, I think it would have been more appropriately voiced outside of this particular thread.

5) Professionals should always be careful and respectful when speaking publicly about other professionals. I don't doubt the mutual respect shown here, but there could have been slightly more caution.

wondercoin

PutTogether... One caveat to your analysis, which I think is otherwise fair. The position of the auction house regarding the use of credit cards up to $9,999 only for collectors has led me personally to not bid virtually at all over there for the coins over or under $10,000. And, even though is has been suggested that it might not even be permitted to exclude the use of a credit card from a particular profession, I do not intend to pursue it any further (or even discover if that is accurate). There are plenty of other places that happily take my credit card or take no credit card from anyone pursuing say $5,000 or $7,500 coins for example (creating a level playing field in my opinion).

If the tables were turned and only dealers could use credit cards and not collectors, in my opinion it would likely be considered relevant to the discussion.

As always, just my two cents and again, I am perfectly fine with this thread concluding as it would have in its normal course anyway without my comments/ contributions on this issue or the issue of what the most expensive sale of a Kennedy was. In fact, you are posting your comment nearly two days after this thread essentially "ended".

Wondercoin