Question regarding Omega Man's counterfeit $20 gold
jesbroken
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After the post regarding the Omega Man's 1907 St Gauden's $20 gold, I ran across this coin for sale at auction in holder with CAC. Am I just imagining something in the Claw?
Just curious.
Jim
Just curious.
Jim
When a man who is honestly mistaken hears the truth, he will either quit being mistaken or cease to be honest....Abraham Lincoln
Patriotism is supporting your country all the time, and your government when it deserves it.....Mark Twain
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I presume you saw more than your fair shares of the Omega counterfeits. How does the Omega counterfeit compare to more recent counterfeits--are the Omega's still among the most deceptive or have they been surpassed by recent efforts?
CaptHenway:
I presume you saw more than your fair shares of the Omega counterfeits. How does the Omega counterfeit compare to more recent counterfeits--are the Omega's still among the most deceptive or have they been surpassed by recent efforts?
The Omega $20 was never one of the most deceptive counterfeits made, once you saw two of them together and could see all the repeating marks. It was just a highly desirable and expensive coin that got a lot of publicity because of the Omega mark. I had a lot more trouble learning the counterfeit $2-1/2 and $5 Indians when I was training at ANACS.
Many people found them deceptive because they had never handled a High Relief $20. Experience is the key to counterfeit detection, seeing a lot of coins and recording what you see.
I remember an incident at the 1978 ANA convention. At that show I was in discussion with John Hunter and Ed Fleischmann about coming to work at ANACS, which I did starting in November, and I hung around their table a lot. Somebody handed John a High Relief to ask if it was real, and he did not recognize the dies.
He asked me to go over to Fred Weinberg's table and ask if he could borrow all of his High Reliefs for half an hour. I did, Fred handed me eight coins (no receipt, just "bring them back when you are done"), and I took them back to John. One of them matched the coin in question, John made some notes for the files, and I took the coins back to Fred.
TD
Interesting comment about the Omega counterfeits. I think the casual opinion (at least mine!
So, how about the Henning nickels. I presume you've seen them, too. Aside from the obvious (ie, the mintmark) what is your opinion of their quality?
CaptHenway:
Interesting comment about the Omega counterfeits. I think the casual opinion (at least mine!
I too have heard this, I think it comes from some written account of the Omega counterfeits.
CaptHenway:
Interesting comment about the Omega counterfeits. I think the casual opinion (at least mine!
I too have heard this, I think it comes from some written account of the Omega counterfeits.
The coin has acquired legend status that makes many people think it is perfect other than the mark. It is not. It is good, but nowhere's near perfect.
After the post regarding the Omega Man's 1907 St Gauden's $20 gold, I ran across this coin for sale at auction in holder with CAC. Am I just imagining something in the Claw?
Just curious.
Jim
At least two different High Relief reverse dies have die polish(raised) in the claw. The "Omega" is incuse.
CaptHenway:
I presume you saw more than your fair shares of the Omega counterfeits. How does the Omega counterfeit compare to more recent counterfeits--are the Omega's still among the most deceptive or have they been surpassed by recent efforts?
The Omega $20 was never one of the most deceptive counterfeits made, once you saw two of them together and could see all the repeating marks. It was just a highly desirable and expensive coin that got a lot of publicity because of the Omega mark. I had a lot more trouble learning the counterfeit $2-1/2 and $5 Indians when I was training at ANACS.
Many people found them deceptive because they had never handled a High Relief $20. Experience is the key to counterfeit detection, seeing a lot of coins and recording what you see.
I remember an incident at the 1978 ANA convention. At that show I was in discussion with John Hunter and Ed Fleischmann about coming to work at ANACS, which I did starting in November, and I hung around their table a lot. Somebody handed John a High Relief to ask if it was real, and he did not recognize the dies. He asked me to go over to Fred Weinberg's table and ask if he could borrow all of his High Reliefs for half an hour. I did, Fred handed me eight coins (no receipt, just "bring them back when you are done"), and I took them back to John. One of them matched the coin in question, John made some notes for the files, and I took the coins back to Fred.
TD
Unfortunately, The Captain was being trained as an authenticator several years AFTER both "Omega" coins were detected. Several articles and columns have been written about these coins. I am still searching for my "Omega" flies to post the things I have read that were written by the ANACS authenticator who found them.
Until I do, this is what I remember reading. The two "Omega" fakes were the BEST MADE, MOST DECEPTIVE counterfeits of US coins at the time they were detected. They fooled countless MAJOR dealers and caused the ANACS staff to be the subject of derision! One major dealer sent Walter Breen to examine the specimens in the National Collection. Walter brought one of the pieces declared C/F by ANACS to DC. When he matched dies of the fake with a genuine coin at the museum, the company published a paper as to why the fake was genuine! By then, ANACS had alerted the Treasury to the fakes and they let the collecting community continue to dig a hole for themselves.
Unfortunately, J. Hunter had no formal training as an authenticator. Most of what he did know he learned after ANACS moved to Colorado. The first ANACS column he wrote in the Numismatist Magazine condemned a genuine High Relief with mint die polish as a counterfeit with "wormy tool marks!" By the time the Captain was "trained" by John and Ed, enough informed numismatists knew about these fakes that they were no longer AS dangerous. Their color was "off."
CaptHenway:
Interesting comment about the Omega counterfeits. I think the casual opinion (at least mine!
So, how about the Henning nickels. I presume you've seen them, too. Aside from the obvious (ie, the mintmark) what is your opinion of their quality?
You have it "right." The "mark" was secondary. In the article, the authenticator wrote that ANACS had at least two of these on hand. One came in and they held it for study as they were not sure either way. Within a week or two another came in. The authenticator wrote that he could not see anything wrong with the coin BUT EVERY TIME HE TRIED TO WRITE IT UP TO SEND IT OUT his pen would not move on the diagnostic sheet! LOL, lucky for him and the old "gut reaction." The coins were put aside to await a trip to the Smithsonian. One afternoon, he took both coins out and tried to find repeating marks. When he zoomed the power of the scope from 7X to a higher power, a very unusual tiny little mark on the eagle's feathers was in the image. The mark looked like microscopic, interwoven worms! As he continued to view other parts of the eagle, more of these marks turned up. He had never seen them before on any coin. THEN, he wrote he saw an incuse "struck thru lint mark" in the claw. Nothing unusual, however the other coin had the same mark. This could possibly happen with a run of coins off the press next to each other until the mark went away. Then more and larger tool marks next to Liberty's head were discovered. The authenticator told the director (C. Hoskins) that the coins were counterfeit and there was a "skull & crossbones-like mark" in the claw. After viewing both coins together, Hoskins immediately recognized the mark as the Greek letter. He also pointed out that the wormy marks that were raised on the coin must be areas that were touched up on the C/F die.
I'm hoping to find my file (may be in storage) but this is most of the story I read.