Interesting thought on restrikes
cccoins
Posts: 292 ✭✭✭✭
I went to my local coin shop today and they mentioned that a customer had recently expressed an interest in Mormon gold, which I also have an interest in. After discussing these coins for a few minutes, the salesman mentioned that they wouldn't be making any more. I mentioned that I wasn't sure why they couldn't, based on the following reasons:
- The church made the dies in the 1840's and 1850's, and they still own them (they are on display in Salt Lake City)
- I believe that the church's corporate structure is still intact today as it was at the time that the coins were minted
- I am not aware of any limiting statements from the church that they would no longer strike coins after a certain date. In fact, I believe that at least some of the 1860 $5 coins were struck much later than 1860.
Based on this, I think that the church would legally be in the clear if the decided to strike more of them using the original dies, and that they could be represented as original coins, albeit restrikes.
Further, in thinking about U.S. coins, where the possessor of a die would not have the legal ability to restrike U.S. coins, and all other territorial issues where the original issuing company is long gone, I would assume that the church's ability to restrike coins legally with the original dies is a unique right for U.S. territorial issues.
Finally, I don't see any reason why the church would restrike the coins, but I also don't see any reason why the legally couldn't.
Any thoughts on this? Do I have my rationale correct?
- The church made the dies in the 1840's and 1850's, and they still own them (they are on display in Salt Lake City)
- I believe that the church's corporate structure is still intact today as it was at the time that the coins were minted
- I am not aware of any limiting statements from the church that they would no longer strike coins after a certain date. In fact, I believe that at least some of the 1860 $5 coins were struck much later than 1860.
Based on this, I think that the church would legally be in the clear if the decided to strike more of them using the original dies, and that they could be represented as original coins, albeit restrikes.
Further, in thinking about U.S. coins, where the possessor of a die would not have the legal ability to restrike U.S. coins, and all other territorial issues where the original issuing company is long gone, I would assume that the church's ability to restrike coins legally with the original dies is a unique right for U.S. territorial issues.
Finally, I don't see any reason why the church would restrike the coins, but I also don't see any reason why the legally couldn't.
Any thoughts on this? Do I have my rationale correct?
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Comments
There was also the suppression of the von Nothaus "Liberty Dollars" you might consider. The problem with them was that certain people tried to establish it as a circulating currency. If the Mormon Church sold them as historical novelties I doubt the Federal government would interfere.
Cheers, RickO
bob
Nah, never mind, not US coins and would not apply.
It is not marked "COPY" anywhere.
I looked on the internet for "Hobby Protection Act Mormon Coin replica", and found some online stores selling replicas,
including one similar to mine.
One online store appeared to be connected to the Latter Day Saints (Mormon) church.
Are these replicas exempt from the Hobby Protection Act for some reason?
The Mysterious Egyptian Magic Coin
Coins in Movies
Coins on Television
As novelty pieces wouldn't they have to have copy on them?
bob
Nah, never mind, not US coins and would not apply.
Well, the interesting question here is would they be copies? The would be manufactured in my scenario using the original dies, but the original organization that struck them 150+ years ago. They are closer in this scenario to a Class II or Class III 1804 dollar restrike than a copy.
As novelty pieces wouldn't they have to have copy on them?
bob
Nah, never mind, not US coins and would not apply.
The Hobby Protection Act applies to "imitation numismatic items." They do not have to be legal tender U.S. coin designs to require being marked with the word "COPY."
I just don't know if it would apply to the original issuer making a rather late second issue of something from the original dies in the original content. There is a mint in Austria striking and selling 1780-dated Maria Theresa Thalers as it has been doing off and on since 1780. It is my understanding that they are rightfully exempt from the HPA.
Another point to ponder: The Mormon Church WAS the legal government of Deseret in the late 1840's and the 1850's. It is not the legal government of Utah today, though its influence is substantial. Is the church today still the "original issuer?" Of such questions are lawyers' vacation homes paid by!
TD
This text is from a letter Brigham Young wrote in July 1862:
I have to inform you that in an early day of our settlement here, when coin was scarce and Cal. gold dust tolerably plenty but unhandy in that shape, for convenience sake dies for twenty, ten, five, and two and a half dollar gold pieces were made, and the gold dust in the market was coined. Small amounts have been coined since the aforesaid date, at times when gold dust has accumulated here sufficient to make it pay to do so, but such amounts are scarcely worth mentioning since the Government began coining in California. There are two dies for the five dollar piece, the one made recently being quite different from the old one.
Should you wish any specimens of the coins made here, they will be remitted, if to be found in the market, upon receipt of your selection accompanied by the corresponding amount either in gold or Government currency, by mail at your risk, unless you prefer waiting an opportunity for their being forwarded by hands of some trusty person going from here to your region of country.
Respectfully
Brigham Young
Betts medals, colonial coins, US Mint medals, foreign coins found in early America, and other numismatic Americana
Little known fact: the Mormons did restrike gold coins.
This text is from a letter Brigham Young wrote in July 1862:
I have to inform you that in an early day of our settlement here, when coin was scarce and Cal. gold dust tolerably plenty but unhandy in that shape, for convenience sake dies for twenty, ten, five, and two and a half dollar gold pieces were made, and the gold dust in the market was coined. Small amounts have been coined since the aforesaid date, at times when gold dust has accumulated here sufficient to make it pay to do so, but such amounts are scarcely worth mentioning since the Government began coining in California. There are two dies for the five dollar piece, the one made recently being quite different from the old one.
Should you wish any specimens of the coins made here, they will be remitted, if to be found in the market, upon receipt of your selection accompanied by the corresponding amount either in gold or Government currency, by mail at your risk, unless you prefer waiting an opportunity for their being forwarded by hands of some trusty person going from here to your region of country.
Respectfully
Brigham Young
Wow, great to know. Has anyone been able to distinguish the originals and the restrikes?