Jordan PSA 10 for $30k..or 25, 20 or 17k?...And the shilling continues (& into the 87s)
seebelow
Posts: 1,643 ✭✭✭
The PWCC '86 Jordan PSA 10 that closed at $30,000 looks a little suspicious. One of the guys who bid it up has 25 retractions, 75% bids with the AH and how he laddered his bids is very suspect. Interrupting his bid pattern of $250 increments when he approached major round numbers by suddenly bidding 40, 60 or 99 dollar bids. Not conclusive but def suspicious.
The problem is people will be using $30k as the going value of a Jordan 10 now.
So many suspicious bidders lately within these record breaking prices. This is much discussed behind the scenes. Yes, there are a lot of legitimate reasons for todays record setting market. Im just saying that maybe there needs to be a little more transparency.
Trust which is somewhat upheld by the SEC is a major pillar of the stock market, economy, the dollar and US Fed. Without it, it would collapse. Just thinking the card market needs something similar.
Where were we before TPG came along? And if something were to happen to them for whatever reason, then prices would plummet. TPG are prob the number one factor that supports this market. At these levels. But I digress..
....But who's surprised when a card goes from$16k to $30k in a few short months.
The problem is people will be using $30k as the going value of a Jordan 10 now.
So many suspicious bidders lately within these record breaking prices. This is much discussed behind the scenes. Yes, there are a lot of legitimate reasons for todays record setting market. Im just saying that maybe there needs to be a little more transparency.
Trust which is somewhat upheld by the SEC is a major pillar of the stock market, economy, the dollar and US Fed. Without it, it would collapse. Just thinking the card market needs something similar.
Where were we before TPG came along? And if something were to happen to them for whatever reason, then prices would plummet. TPG are prob the number one factor that supports this market. At these levels. But I digress..
....But who's surprised when a card goes from$16k to $30k in a few short months.
Interested in higher grade vintage cards. Aren't we all. 
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Comments
The PWCC '86 Jordan PSA 10 that closed at $30,000 looks a little suspicious. One of the guys who bid it up has 25 retractions, 75% bids with the AH and how he laddered his bids is very suspect. Interrupting his bid pattern of $250 increments when he approached major round numbers by suddenly bidding 40, 60 or 99 dollar bids. Not conclusive but def suspicious.
The problem is people will be using $30k as the going value of a Jordan 10 now.
So many suspicious bidders lately within these record breaking prices. This is much discussed behind the scenes. Yes, there are a lot of legitimate reasons for todays record setting market. Im just saying that maybe there needs to be a little more transparency.
Trust which is somewhat upheld by the SEC is a major pillar of the stock market, economy, the dollar and US Fed. Without it, it would collapse. Just thinking the card market needs something similar.
Where were we before TPG came along? And if something were to happen to them for whatever reason, then prices would plummet. TPG are prob the number one factor that supports this market. At these levels. But I digress..
....But who's surprised when a card goes from$16k to $30k in a few short months.
Well said
It sounds like these two guys may be buying for a while and driving the Jordan PSA 10 market.
I collect: 80’s Rookies and 86 Fleer Basketball
Then another goes on sale and its now at $5400 with bids as well and it still has like 3 days left!! (with bids)
Then another with PWCC which has around 8 days left as of this moment is currently at $3716.
I did notice whoever this bidder/buyer is (a***c) - 3670 Feedback score is 1000 to 4,999 - he has been aggressively chasing this card as he was the winning bidder of the $5411 auction through PWCC and has also placed a bid for the one which is currently at $5400 as his highest bid so far was $4700. He has even placed bids with the 88 Jordan Fleer 10's which have been selling between $515-$550 for also the past 6 months. Those also had a nice jump within the last year but have stayed still in price for the past few months now. If anything, even a few times reaching $600 but they have seemed to level out again.
He looks like he could indeed be a real buyer however because he only has 1 bid retraction as of recent as two within the last 6 months. I am still going to be looking at the next few sales to see how often his name keeps popping up on these Jordan PSA 10 cards.
30-Day Summary
Total bids: 233
Items bid on: 67
Bid activity (%) with this seller: 59% Help
Bid retractions: 1
Bid retractions (6 months): 2
I am stayed away from this conversation but wanted to thank RookieHOF's for that input. I had a feeling some would look at the final price as suspicious.
Full disclosure: The $30K Jordan that ended last week was mine. I was thrilled with the final result. In addition, the current 1987 Fleer Jordan PSA 10 with PWCC is also mine, and if it sells for $5K+, I would also be pleased. This was my first time consigning any cards.
I am cards_and_trains on eBay if anyone would like to investigate. I typically sell on my own cards, but wanted PWCC to handle the stress of selling a high value card. I am selling my Jordan PSA basic set.
My #2 Ranked Michael Jordan PSA Basic Set
Hi everyone,
I am stayed away from this conversation but wanted to thank RookieHOF's for that input. I had a feeling some would look at the final price as suspicious.
Full disclosure: The $30K Jordan that ended last week was mine. I was thrilled with the final result. In addition, the current 1987 Fleer Jordan PSA 10 with PWCC is also mine, and if it sells for $5K+, I would also be pleased. This was my first time consigning any cards.
I am cards_and_trains on eBay if anyone would like to investigate. I typically sell on my own cards, but wanted PWCC to handle the stress of selling a high value card. I am selling my Jordan PSA basic set.
Congrats!
My #2 Ranked Michael Jordan PSA Basic Set
Thanks DPeck. It sucked to have to let them go. The ending price helped a bit, but those are 2 childhood iconic cards no longer in the collection.
Nice to hear of board members selling their cards at record prices. The good news is at some point if you want them back you can locate them fairly easily.
This mad dash of investment dollars is fascinating to watch. As the prices rise it seems they are getting even more aggressive. It is easy to forget that while 30k seems like a lot of money it is a pittance in the big picture when talking about investment dollars.
Interesting thought is would it be better to own $30k worth of PSA 9's (6-7 of them at around $4500-5000), or one PSA 10 for $30k. At $30k the question becomes does the card have more upside to grow, or at $30k does the price settle once the guys buying them have enough 10's. Once they stop bidding and driving them up it could get interesting. This card is not like a Mantle, Koufax, Aaron, or Clemente rookie where no more are going to come out in numbers into the market.
With only one card you can't trade around the position and shed one here and there so for most in this case having numerous PSA 9's would have been a better bet. That said there are plenty of cards where owning the 10 has crushed owning the lower graded copies.
On this Jordan rookie not all 10's are created equal either, and this current one seems to have some edges on the right side that we could keep me from bidding on it. Just one mans opinion.
The 1986 Fleer BBCX wrapped boxes were going in the low 30's when the Jordan was in the high teens in a 10. Does anyone have any recent sales data on boxes?
There was one listed on the board within the past week that sold pretty quickly. Was listed at 35.5K. It was a pieced together box (I emailed Steve about the specific box because I was interested before finding this out).
IMHO a proper collated, fully original 86 Fleer Box is definitely worth a premium.
What would you rather have a PSA 10 Jordan or an unopened wax box of 1986 Fleer? In 10 years, which is more valuable?
I think the box, given it's un-tampered with. Every card in the set seems pretty hot.
I also have been noticing the same thing with his 87 in a 10. The card normally has been selling for around $3100 pretty consistantly for the past 6 months and just last week it shot up in the last 20 seconds from $3750 to $5411 (PWCC)
Then another goes on sale and its now at $5400 with bids as well and it still has like 3 days left!! (with bids)
I really like the 1987 basketball too and would rather have 5 1987s than the one PSA 10 1986. The 1987 unopened packs seem more rare with 1/4 as many PSA graded and fairly cheep to me too, but of course I'm more of an unopened pack collector.
Congrats on your sale Ryno, Maybe I should pick up some more 1987 packs before the investors go after them as I usually see a 3 month lag in the pack prices once the cards start soaring like this.
Join the Rookie stars on top PSA registry today:
1980-1989 Cello Packs - Rookies
The top two bidders on this card and the winner and the under bidder on the 30K card are both legit. They are investors and are buying up 10's as they feel like this card is going to 50K. That came from Brent.
It sounds like these two guys may be buying for a while and driving the Jordan PSA 10 market.
What happens when they stop?
And since they are "investors", they may hold but eventually planning on dumping them by definition. Dumping may be a strong word, but as investors they are prob liquidating or selling at some point.
..Ive been a buyer but at 30k? yikes...this card is as solid as it gets but may be due for some retracement or back-filling.....when they stop or until people get use to a 30k tag. Im not...yet.
TheClockworkAngelCollection
There have been a number of very wealthy investors and collectors made up of businessmen, athletes, entertainers, etc that have entered the market in the last couple years When you're talking about guys with pockets that deep that decide they want something, then you get results like what we saw with the PA 10 Jordan. It's happening with all kinds of iconic cards so quickly it's hard to keep up.
This makes perfect sense.
Here is the other factor to look at. Last year there were 33 PSA 10's all between $16-22k. Now we are at $30k? Great card, iconic card, but I would not be personally paying $30k when there is not a shortage by any stretch.
Exactly. To double in such a short period of time. It makes sense a few of the posters friends are hoarding them right now. Kind of an artificial short term demand. I wasn't saying the buyers at 30k weren't legit. I was saying how it got up to, say 20k, and 25k and how certain bidders' activities were suspicious. Then the legit "investors" topped those bids. Im a buyer of 10's but not for anywhere near 30k until that level is supported over a long period of time and for many individual 10s. Not 2 or 3 recently driven up by a few guys. IMHO.
I bought this for $60,000 ten years ago. Today I could sell it for $600,000. The illusion has become real and the more real it becomes the more desperate they want it. Capitalism at its finest.
What a line but so true.
The illusion has become real
WOW
I have always liked this card.
PSA 9 sticker
WOW
I have always liked this card.
Glad I got mine for $300 WOW
Below was less than a week ago:
30-Day Summary
Total bids: 233
Items bid on: 67
Bid activity (%) with this seller: 59% Help
Bid retractions: 1
Bid retractions (6 months): 2
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As of this second:
30-Day Summary
Total bids: 269
Items bid on: 74
Bid activity (%) with this seller: 0% Help
Bid retractions: 4
Bid retractions (6 months): 5
Totally jacking up prices for these 86, 87 and 88 Jordans PSA 10's. Winning auctions and then backing out. I spoke to one "seller" who reposted a "sold" 87 Jordan in a 10 and this was our convo below. I will add that this seller seemed very "suspicious" to me because he didnt want to give up the "buyers" name which is kinda odd and at times it even sounds like he is defending him. I think these two are fishy because then this seller went on to list his Jordan as a super high BIN or Best Offer going off the sames of the recent sales which a***c (3675) has been shill bidding and at times even "winning"
Me:
Hi,
Can I ask what happened with the buyer that didnt purchase this card when "sold" a week ago because I noticed it was being relisted.
Him:
he backed out!
Me:
Oh Ok.
Did you offer "second chance" to this person? 2nd highest bidder below.
a***c ( 3675Feedback score is 1000 to 4,999)
This person has been bidding up on all the 86 and 87 Jordan cards PSA 10's
Him:
yep steve is his name!
thanks
Me:
And Steve didnt want it either although he continues bidding on the 87 Jordans in PSA 10. Thats a bit odd dont you think?
Whats his user name so i can block him and warn other card members of his shill bids.
Thanks in advance.
Him:
steve said he found another one for cheaper! he is a mad man...buying every mj rookie there is??
have a good one??
Me:
He is buying all of them you say but then he didn't want yours though? Doesn't make sense because he continues bidding in them. I am not going to keep bothering you since i asked for his ID and you didn't provide it but the whole thing looks fishy.
Good luck getting what you want for it.
Him:
he mainly wants the rookies he said! and he actually also told me he had a death in the family last friday! thats what he told me...good luck
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What a shame, the shills have become out of control. Those responses, especially adding the emoji, just don't smell right.
Successful card BST transactions with cbcnow, brogurt, gstarling, Bravesfan 007, and rajah 424.
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
Nasty Schill Bidding going on
And this was the seller who I think is also in on it that I had that conversation with.
User ID - topshelftackle
If the board detectives can find out the other guys user id, I would appreciate it but I will be reporting him and seeing what eBay will do but this isnt right.
There have been a number of very wealthy investors and collectors made up of businessmen, athletes, entertainers, etc that have entered the market in the last couple years When you're talking about guys with pockets that deep that decide they want something, then you get results like what we saw with the PA 10 Jordan. It's happening with all kinds of iconic cards so quickly it's hard to keep up.
This makes perfect sense.
True and get what your saying but investors who have that time horizon usually don't come in and immediately pay double...16- 30,35 within a few weeks when due to its limited supply/offerings they could inch in and still win them all....most successful smart business men i know still are smart with their money and just don't throw it around...but who knows with guys with lots of money....esp managing others money.
Dnice....great work..i sent u a PM...this really burns me and no one should be buying for now...i now refuse when "all" the comps I've seen are suspicious at best....i lost an mj 10 to the usually suspicious bidding, came on here and caught up with this thread and ,,,,what do u know,,,,the same schiller that u are following drove up the price in the mj i was bidding....we should def cont to out these people....the seller in ur case seemed a little off...could be the same one i was dealing with..im not prepared to say its the dealers but def some bidders.....great work again.....
the guys on the other boards do great work when people are "cheating" the hobby and no reason why we can't here.
hmm...maybe its someone who already has a hoard of high end MJ's ?????? driving up the value of his own collection....(or one that just likes to watch the world burn)
I just checked out some other psa 10 high end cards and guess what, good old "3675" is on them bidding them up...then miraculously stops his bids right on the high bidders last bid at the time...its so blatantly obvious....
hmm...maybe its someone who already has a hoard of high end MJ's ?????? driving up the value of his own collection....(or one that just likes to watch the world burn)
That is what I was thinking. He owns several of them and by driving the price up he is priming the pump so to speak to make his worth more. I guess the saying is true - what goes up must come down
Had to redo it after shill bidder complained
This is the best I can do. And yes, this is my card.
Hopefully eBay lets it ride, looks like you have quite a following already.
This is the best I can do. And yes, this is my card.
Hopefully eBay lets it ride, looks like you have quite a following already.
Now that is ballsy, well done.
Successful card BST transactions with cbcnow, brogurt, gstarling, Bravesfan 007, and rajah 424.
another ex.....because of small supply he moved 87 mj 10s from 3k to 6k in 2 months...next him and his conspirators start using diff id's but their methods are apparent.
I'm with Dnice 100%..well done
pre posters.... I'm sure some of the 30k buyers (& Brent) are legit but whose buying once they leave after they figure out they've been cheated along the way to the final price? and are left holding the bag once the music stops. thats when it collapses....because other than those investors how big is the market of people that can buy a $30k card...the smart ones realize its a fraudulent price and would rather put it into prewar, mantle etc...I, personally, have left other hobbies due to rampant fraud and pretty much have left the MJ market part of cards(for now) and just don't want to see it happen to this hobby....its has been and is always about CREDIBILITY....anyways, sorry about the passion and digression. Ill step back but cont to PM me. U all have my support.
Your conversation has me worried that some of the listings on eBay are over inflated. Since I am new to things I am trying to be extra careful especially at these price points. The listing I am highly considering is the one below. Would love to hear your take on this card and price point. The seller has been pretty responsive to my questions so far.
http://www.ebay.com/usr/hornsb..._trksid=p2047675.l2559
Great thread and information. VERY helpful for a noob like myself.
Here are the messages:
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New message from: juan4555 (336Turquoise Star)
I've sold to this guy 3 times and he has paid.
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New message from: cardlegends (3,677Red Star) **Person I am calling out**
I have reported this to eBay they will be in contact with you . If I were you I would remove this it is a serious violation. There is not one item I have win that I have not paid for . Ask pwcc. Why you are stating such malicious garbage I have no idea. Ask any seller from any auction I have won if I paid .
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New message from: vanhalen314 (302Turquoise Star)
Wow! Thanks for posting. I want to buy a psa 9 of this card but I have seen these prices inflate for no reason. Now I now why. Hopefully they go down in price again. Thanks. Greg vanhalen314
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New message from: cazz72 (329Turquoise Star)
I need to check to see if he was the reason a Tom brady sp authentic psa 10 just sold for 13,100.00. Do you know if he bid on that?
Thanks
Robert
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New message from: cardlegends (3,677Red Star) **Person I am calling out**
Just paid for 2 stickers for 2300 each . If I retracted because I didn't like the bidders feedback . If I retracted how is that shill bidding . The 88 that sold for 1030 a few days ago I didn't even bid on . Nothing you are saying makes any sense . Call me you got so much to say (writes down his #). Pretty brave posting garbage on eBay .
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New message from: 80sbasketballisthebest (663Purple Star)
Thank you my brother of honesty, somebody needed to say it.
Also the rookie going to $35,000 is dumb too.
Can't even imagine what the 88 sticker psa 10 with PWCC will go for now.
5....5 (335) is in on it too.... Bidding like crazy but never winning
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Also look at the last sentence from 80sbasketballisthebest. He writes "5....5 (335) is in on it too.... Bidding like crazy but never winning". Now look at the first message I received. It was from a user named juan4555 (336Turquoise Star) telling me that he has "sold to this guy 3 times and he has paid". Could this be the same guy that 80sbasketballisthebest pointed out. Hmmm I wonder....
Interesting enough, the person did bid a few times on that Brady card (two seperate Bradys actually) that that other member referenced but didnt win neither. The seller is a big spender I will say but why continue bidding on a card that is rising so much in price because you are basically outbidding yourself. Why not place the big bid in the end. Just doesnt seem right. The 87 Jordan has two days to go and is currently at $6k. Thats insane! 3 weeks ago you could have had this for $3250. Seems everything he touches, it sells for a heck of a lot more.
What is happening with the 86 Sticker is probably the most egregious example. PSA 9's jumping from 600-800 a few weeks back to nearly 2k average with teh same handful of buyers bidding and winning on every one...
Very informative thread here.