1861 CSA Half Dime

Zoins

Here's a piece that I think is interesting: the "A United South" half dime by A.O.P. Sehorn of Murfreesboro, Tenn. Here's the text from the April 1878 American Journal of Numismatics:

Originally posted by: American Journal of Numismatics on April 1878
Mr. P.S. Jones of Memphis writes us, saying that he has in his possession a silver five-cent piece, which he got the day after the battle of Perryville, Ky., October 9, 1862, when he was commanding a company in the Kentucky cavalry service. ... We are informed that the latter piece was struck by A.O.P. Sehorn of Murfreesboro, Tenn., and that the dies were destroyed several years ago. Its size is 9, American scale. One of these tokens, for it is not a coin, was presented to the Boston Numismatic Society, at a recent meeting, by Gen. G.P. Thruston of Nashville, Tenn.

Give that these ended up with a cavalry commander and general from Tennessee, is it plausible that Sehorn was distributing these to CSA military?

CaptHenway

I have never handled one of these, so this is sheer speculation, but the die workmanship on this piece as seen in the photos reminds me of the counterfeit trimes made to circulate during the Civil War. Perhaps the counterfeiter branched out to make tokens that could be sold in the south?

Zoins

Good to know TD. It's interesting that they could have been from the same engraver / die sinker.

For more info:

General Thruston's full name is: General Gates Phillips Thruston.

From the Davidson County, TN Archives.

Still searching for full names of Jones and Sehorn.

ricko

Interesting item.... From a most turbulent time in our history.... Cheers, RickO

Zoins

Here's some more info from the New York Times published by Stack's which indicates it has the thickness of a trime.

Originally posted by: New York Times on February 14, 1878
A REBEL HALF DIME: The Columbus (Ga.) Enguirer says: "Not long since a short statement was made in this paper of a Confederate silver quarter-dollar, and mentioned it was the first we had ever heard of such a coin, we have received from P. Sid Jones, of Memphis, Tenn., agent of the Millburn Wagon Company, a note in which he states that he has in his possession a silver 5-cent piece which he got the day after the battle of Perryville, KY., Oct. 9, 1862, when he was commanding a company in the Kentucky cavalry service. He thus describes the piece: In diameter it is about half an inch and of the thickiness of a silver 3-cent piece. On one side are stamped around the margin 'A UNITED SOUTH,' and a Confederate flag, flying from a staff, and the figures 1861. On the reverse, appears 15 stars around the margin, and a cotton stalk, with leaves, bloom, and boll.

Zoins

Here's some information on a P. S. Jones that was born in Tennessee, participated in "the late Rebellion" and then became VP of a bank in Kansas. Still looking for his full name but we have more to go on now.

http://www.kancoll.org/books/cutler/morris/morris-co-p9.html
https://morriscountyhistory.us/wp-content/uploads/2017/03/Cutlers-History-of-the-State-of-Kansas-no-format.pdf

William G. Cutler's History of the State of Kansas
first published in 1883 by A. T. Andreas, Chicago, IL.

P. S. JONES, farmer and stock raiser, came to Council Grove, Kansas, in April, 1882, and permanently located. For the past eight years he has resided at intervals in the above village. He is vice-president of the Farmers and Drovers Bank of Council Grove. Was born in Wilson County, Middle Tennessee, October 28, 1829, and was raised in his native state on a farm. Moved in 1851 to Northeastern Texas, Red River County, where he superintended a large farm for six years. Moving then to Pallo Pinto County, where he engaged in the cattle business; after a few years he moved to Bent County, Col., where he followed the same occupation until coming to Kansas. He was a participant in the late Rebellion. He is now doing a large loan and real estate business.

He's also mentioned on page 2 of The Council Grove Republican from Council Grove, Kansas as bank VP.

https://www.newspapers.com/newspage/67416944/

Zoins

Here are two articles from CoinWorld on the discovery of a 3rd reverse die, the Bradford Haynes specimen, found metal detecting on the site of the Battle of Stone's River. It's also mentioned that John J. Ford Jr. had two specimens, EF holed and AU unholed, the unholed one being the Donald Groves Partrick specimen.

• September 2016: https://www.coinworld.com/news/us-coins/2016/09/confederate-token-may-have-circulated-in-civil-war.all.html
• August 2017: https://www.coinworld.com/news/us-coins/2017/08/third-reverse-die-exists-for-confederate-half-dime.all.html

Here are some photos of the site of the Battle of Stone's River where this specimen was found along with the Wikipedia article:

• Wikipedia: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Stones_River

ricko

@Zoins ....Thanks for the updates on these interesting pieces. I have long been intrigued by civil war history... started when I was a young Boy Scout at the National Jamboree in Valley Forge, PA. A couple of people actually found old musket balls in the camps. Cheers, RickO

yosclimber

Somewhat interesting.
Since there is no denomination on the token, it is speculative to call it a half dime.
The September 2016 Coin World article describes 13 stars on the reverse, but does not include a reverse photo.
The August 2017 Coin World article describes 13 stars on the reverse, but the photo shows 14, with possibly a 15th obscured by the hole.

Here are another two auctioned by Heritage in July 2017:
https://coins.ha.com/itm/confederate-states-of-america/1861-dated-confederate-half-dime-a-united-south-dewitt-sullivan-c-1861-2-holed-ngc-details-fine/a/1257-3341.s
"Holed as are the majority of the eight to 12 known examples. This piece is the fifth example that we have offered since the January 2015 Donald Groves Partrick sale. We had never handled one prior to the Partrick sale."
https://coins.ha.com/itm/confederate-states-of-america/1861-dated-confederate-half-dime-a-united-south-dewitt-sullivan-c-1861-2-holed-ngc-details-xf/a/1257-3340.s?ic3=ViewItem-Auction-Archive-ThisAuction-120115

ScarsdaleCoin

Yosclimber with that logic an 1883 V nickel wound be speculative to call a nickel?

Zoins

I'm guessing weight would be more important that diameter here. This was produced by a Confederate jeweler in Tennessee, not a US Mint facility after all.

While it was described as a half dime in the 19th century and it may or may not be one, US Mint coin diameters may not be the best criteria here.

bkzoopapa

The Partrick coin was in my Confederate collection. I had purchased it from token dealer Rich Hartzog because I had never seen one unholed. Later after mentioning to John Ford that I had an unholed one he offered to buy it when I broke up my collection as he had not seen another one. He referred to it as a “Trime” and then went into his collection.

Zoins

It's great that you owned the Partrick specimen! A Trime is certain closer at 14mm whereas this one is 13mm. Do you know any other information on this piece?

yosclimber

@ScarsdaleCoin said:
Yosclimber with that logic an 1883 V nickel wound be speculative to call a nickel?

V = 5 in Roman numerals, so that works as a denomination for me.

Breen's Encyclopedia (1988), p. 666:

This has been called a "Confederate Half Dime," but the size is nearest the 3c silver.

I haven't seen a weight listed for it, although it does appear to be near coin silver - 86% silver, 13% copper in the January 2015 auction description.

CaptHenway

@bkzoopapa said:
The Partrick coin was in my Confederate collection. I had purchased it from token dealer Rich Hartzog because I had never seen one unholed. Later after mentioning to John Ford that I had an unholed one he offered to buy it when I broke up my collection as he had not seen another one. He referred to it as a “Trime” and then went into his collection.

Was JJF a cheapskate when you tried to sell it to him?

bkzoopapa

John was always fair with me as I found a lot of things he wanted and he knew that so he never argued with my prices.