Bad treatment by a dealer at coin show
Rarestuff
Posts: 16 ✭
Wow. I am still stewing over something that happened to me today at a local coin show. I need to share it to let off some steam.
First off, I am not trying to be cryptic, but for now I don't want to reveal who it was or where it happened because I am concerned the dealer may be harassed directly as we know sometimes happens from internet postings.
I went to a local coin show with my 8-year old son. I don't go to too many regional shows, and this is the first time I have taken him to a coin show. It was a medium size local show, so I thought I would give him a few dollars and let him go through dealer bins and learn about coin collecting.
I collect, among other things, historical medals including Betts and 19th century US Mint medals. You don't find a lot of what I collect at shows, and the stuff is easy to spot because medals are usually not slabbed, and are of larger size than coins.
In the second row, I approach a dealer who has three large medals, the first dealer whose table I approach the show.
My son says "Daddy look, it is a gold medal" pointing to a large medal, and before I corrected him, the dealer told him, abruptly. "That's not gold, it is silver". I didn't really notice the abruptness at first, but it was just the beginning. I asked the dealer the price, to which he responded, extremely rudely "Do you know what it is?" I told him yes I know what it is, I was just curious about the price. (I was being extremely courteous to the dealer so far - I was taken aback by the abruptness - but it hadn't really registered with me yet because his rudeness and tone was so profoundly out of character for the situation). Then he said it again ""Do you know what it is?" and I said yes, then he repeated it over 4 or 5 times times, very rapidly and rudely: "Do you know what it is?" "Do you know what it is?" "Do you know what it is?". I said "I know what it is - I was only asking for the price" Then he said "why are you asking about them if you don't know what they are?" (remember I told him I knew what they were).
And finally I caught on. These were 4 figure medals - he did not want to talk to me about them. I was wasting his time. There was obviously some judgment made about me and my worthiness; not only to afford them - but to even take the time to discuss them.
He then said "they are not for sale".
With my son there with me, and not wanting to make a big scene at the show, I still needed to say something. I basically told the dealer something along the lines of "You don't know who I am, and you have no right to treat me this way. You are being rude to me for no reason at all. I am here with my son, and he is a young collector and this type of rude behavior is unacceptable at a coin show especially in front of young collectors." I then told him my credentials and who I was and what I knew (NLG Awards for writing about Historic medals, author, numismatist, researcher, etc.). He didn't say much in response - he didn't expect me to finally let him know that yes, indeed, the dude in front of you knows exactly "what it is". I am guessing he was caught off guard by who I was - as much as I was by his initial and immediate unexpected rudeness and misjudgment about me.
Fortunately a friend later came to the show to check things out, and to meet me for lunch afterwards. I went outside with him to discuss what happened. He wanted to approach the dealer to see if he was treated differently. As I watched from a distance the dealer not only engaged him in a friendly manner, but without being asked, brought the medals out and handed them to him to look at, telling him all about them. He confirmed they were there for display only, so he was not refusing to sell them to only me.
For the record, I can absolutely afford the cost of the medal. I have many medals in my collection which are far rarer and more valuable than those medals. As far as "knowing" about the medals? My friend, a numismatic author and well known expert in his area of numismatics, said to the folks running the show something like "the worst thing is that the dealer decided to be not only rude, but challenged him on his knowledge - and the person he is talking to is probably the leading expert in the world on those medals - and probably knows a lot more about them than the dealer."
Has this ever happened to anyone else? Where a dealer just assumes because of your appearance, that you cannot afford something? To the point where they are rude to you and refuse to even discuss the item?
I met with my friend to discuss this with the show manager, and they both concluded - without my prompting -that I was "profiled". I'll let the cat out of the bag. This is California, and I am Hispanic. My friend is Caucasian. It was obvious to them that when I was treated differently and dismissed by the dealer it could only be because of his first impressions based upon my physical appearance. No I can't read his mind - but his refusing to even discuss something in his display case, and worse, treating other customers completely different when they do the same thing? Unacceptable whatever the reason.
Not the first time I have encountered mistreatment, though fortunately it is a rare occurrence, and usually subtle to where I just ignore it. But this was by far the most indiscreet and obvious time it has occurred. It is bad enough to refuse to take something out of a case (which I never asked) - but to refuse to even discuss it? Never had that happen.
Sadly it happened in front of my son - but fortunately as well. If he was not there, I would have been a lot more direct with the dealer and put him in his place. I do think I managed to embarrass him a little when I called him out. I did tell the show manager that I should be able to come to a show without the dealers treating me differently than other attendees, and he completely agreed. He asked me to send him an e-mail to document what happened, and hopefully they will ban the dealer from future shows.
The dealer is involved in other organizations in numismatics and I have not decided yet if I will complain to those groups. It was a public place, and so were his actions, and he should be held responsible for the public face he presents for the organizations he represents. If nothing else, despite his privately held personal beliefs, he must treat everyone equally in public events. And last time I checked - that is the law of the land too. He needs to know and use that legal and moral standard for his behavior. He hopefully learned today that he needs to be careful - because someone can turn out to be someone much different than he assumes.
FYI I did not let the incident adversely effect my son's enjoyment of the show. In fact, many of the dealers there were absolutely wonderful to him, and he was given a lot of swag. I bought him some Indian Head cents, and then a Whitman folder, and one old time numismatist spent a long time sitting down with him, explaining how to hold coins, and how to put them in a Whitman folder by date face-up without touching the coins. He helped my son fill the IHC album with his coins. It was a wonderful experience seeing the unselfish passing on of the traditions of coin collecting. This is how it should be.
First off, I am not trying to be cryptic, but for now I don't want to reveal who it was or where it happened because I am concerned the dealer may be harassed directly as we know sometimes happens from internet postings.
I went to a local coin show with my 8-year old son. I don't go to too many regional shows, and this is the first time I have taken him to a coin show. It was a medium size local show, so I thought I would give him a few dollars and let him go through dealer bins and learn about coin collecting.
I collect, among other things, historical medals including Betts and 19th century US Mint medals. You don't find a lot of what I collect at shows, and the stuff is easy to spot because medals are usually not slabbed, and are of larger size than coins.
In the second row, I approach a dealer who has three large medals, the first dealer whose table I approach the show.
My son says "Daddy look, it is a gold medal" pointing to a large medal, and before I corrected him, the dealer told him, abruptly. "That's not gold, it is silver". I didn't really notice the abruptness at first, but it was just the beginning. I asked the dealer the price, to which he responded, extremely rudely "Do you know what it is?" I told him yes I know what it is, I was just curious about the price. (I was being extremely courteous to the dealer so far - I was taken aback by the abruptness - but it hadn't really registered with me yet because his rudeness and tone was so profoundly out of character for the situation). Then he said it again ""Do you know what it is?" and I said yes, then he repeated it over 4 or 5 times times, very rapidly and rudely: "Do you know what it is?" "Do you know what it is?" "Do you know what it is?". I said "I know what it is - I was only asking for the price" Then he said "why are you asking about them if you don't know what they are?" (remember I told him I knew what they were).
And finally I caught on. These were 4 figure medals - he did not want to talk to me about them. I was wasting his time. There was obviously some judgment made about me and my worthiness; not only to afford them - but to even take the time to discuss them.
He then said "they are not for sale".
With my son there with me, and not wanting to make a big scene at the show, I still needed to say something. I basically told the dealer something along the lines of "You don't know who I am, and you have no right to treat me this way. You are being rude to me for no reason at all. I am here with my son, and he is a young collector and this type of rude behavior is unacceptable at a coin show especially in front of young collectors." I then told him my credentials and who I was and what I knew (NLG Awards for writing about Historic medals, author, numismatist, researcher, etc.). He didn't say much in response - he didn't expect me to finally let him know that yes, indeed, the dude in front of you knows exactly "what it is". I am guessing he was caught off guard by who I was - as much as I was by his initial and immediate unexpected rudeness and misjudgment about me.
Fortunately a friend later came to the show to check things out, and to meet me for lunch afterwards. I went outside with him to discuss what happened. He wanted to approach the dealer to see if he was treated differently. As I watched from a distance the dealer not only engaged him in a friendly manner, but without being asked, brought the medals out and handed them to him to look at, telling him all about them. He confirmed they were there for display only, so he was not refusing to sell them to only me.
For the record, I can absolutely afford the cost of the medal. I have many medals in my collection which are far rarer and more valuable than those medals. As far as "knowing" about the medals? My friend, a numismatic author and well known expert in his area of numismatics, said to the folks running the show something like "the worst thing is that the dealer decided to be not only rude, but challenged him on his knowledge - and the person he is talking to is probably the leading expert in the world on those medals - and probably knows a lot more about them than the dealer."
Has this ever happened to anyone else? Where a dealer just assumes because of your appearance, that you cannot afford something? To the point where they are rude to you and refuse to even discuss the item?
I met with my friend to discuss this with the show manager, and they both concluded - without my prompting -that I was "profiled". I'll let the cat out of the bag. This is California, and I am Hispanic. My friend is Caucasian. It was obvious to them that when I was treated differently and dismissed by the dealer it could only be because of his first impressions based upon my physical appearance. No I can't read his mind - but his refusing to even discuss something in his display case, and worse, treating other customers completely different when they do the same thing? Unacceptable whatever the reason.
Not the first time I have encountered mistreatment, though fortunately it is a rare occurrence, and usually subtle to where I just ignore it. But this was by far the most indiscreet and obvious time it has occurred. It is bad enough to refuse to take something out of a case (which I never asked) - but to refuse to even discuss it? Never had that happen.
Sadly it happened in front of my son - but fortunately as well. If he was not there, I would have been a lot more direct with the dealer and put him in his place. I do think I managed to embarrass him a little when I called him out. I did tell the show manager that I should be able to come to a show without the dealers treating me differently than other attendees, and he completely agreed. He asked me to send him an e-mail to document what happened, and hopefully they will ban the dealer from future shows.
The dealer is involved in other organizations in numismatics and I have not decided yet if I will complain to those groups. It was a public place, and so were his actions, and he should be held responsible for the public face he presents for the organizations he represents. If nothing else, despite his privately held personal beliefs, he must treat everyone equally in public events. And last time I checked - that is the law of the land too. He needs to know and use that legal and moral standard for his behavior. He hopefully learned today that he needs to be careful - because someone can turn out to be someone much different than he assumes.
FYI I did not let the incident adversely effect my son's enjoyment of the show. In fact, many of the dealers there were absolutely wonderful to him, and he was given a lot of swag. I bought him some Indian Head cents, and then a Whitman folder, and one old time numismatist spent a long time sitting down with him, explaining how to hold coins, and how to put them in a Whitman folder by date face-up without touching the coins. He helped my son fill the IHC album with his coins. It was a wonderful experience seeing the unselfish passing on of the traditions of coin collecting. This is how it should be.
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Comments
It's a crazy time these days and what is needed is common courtesy and strong patience.
You seemed to handle the situation admirably.
"“Those who sacrifice liberty for security/safety deserve neither.“(Benjamin Franklin)
"I only golf on days that end in 'Y'" (DE59)
Your answer may bring peace and a bit of solace if not even delight and will weaken the poor feelings you have for the dealer and the experience.
peacockcoins
I dress very casually at shows. Always have, and probably always will. In the beginning, when I looked much younger as well as being casually attired, I think I was also profiled. Never so blatantly rudely, but with a skeptical but polite look...
I hope you have many more positive coin experiences with your son in the future.
EVP
How does one get a hater to stop hating?
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Racial, social, sexual and other "profiling" continues throughout our country and the world every day, even in 2016.
While the specific circumstances differ, I have close black, Hispanic, Asian and other friends that this also happens to.
While despicable, I am surprised it shocked you.
That a&@hole should be banned.
Maybe your son learned something about the world some still live in.
Now I gotta cool off here.....this stuff really gets my goat also.
Best.
At a senior I get profiled all the time (stupid old man) and perhaps it's part my fault in the way I dress (shorts, cowboy hat and unshaven but no beard). I know it to be true as the first time (not the only time) that I pulled ten grand out of my pocket to buy a coin I thought the dealer was going to have a heart attack. Just laughed it off.
An acquaintance of mine (really) drives a 1970's Chevy pick up truck, wears slip on shoes (almost house slippers), never a tie and just a common Wal-Mart pullover shirt and levi's. He's a billionaire from Buenos Aires. Owns huge tracks of land and ranches cattle. He's profiled by every casino in this town until they figure out who he really is.
Just go on with life....you're son likely didn't care or pick up on it.
bob
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
I am half Mexican, so I suppose I qualify as Hispanic. On those rare occasion someone treats me like dirt, I never think it has anything to do with my appearance. I just don't go there. Just assume the person is a so-and-so. There are plenty of them out there, and this hobby is not immune. Maybe the dealer decided to change his attitude after your encounter and that can be seen as a good thing.
Cheers
Bob
US Civil War coinage
Historical Medals
First, I'm glad the show worked out well for your son. That's the most important thing.
Second, what's the point of complaining to the show chairman? When life confronts you with a jerk, it's your job to deal with it, if you can. When the dealer asked you "Do you know what this is?", it would have been far more satisfying and productive to tell him everything you know about the medals - except their value
Third, a serious question. Why are you telling us this story?
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Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
It is, after all, a "Coin SHOW".
The name is LEE!
Politics of ANY persuasion don't belong this coin forum.
I love it. I don't have an emoji? to show my delight. Maybe this ??, but don't get goofy on me.
US Civil War coinage
Historical Medals
Why didn't you answer the guys question? 'It is a 1902 medal commemorating the Wells Fargo semicentennial' or whatever it was
OCD runs rampant in this hobby
Why didn't you answer the guys question? 'It is a 1902 medal commemorating the Wells Fargo semicentennial' or whatever it was
It does seem like that would have been a normal response.
There are always two sides to a story. Maybe the dealer perceived an attitude from the OP which the OP may not have intended or even realized?
Apparently the dealer brought them to the show to show them off and wanted to talk about them, not to sell them.
Maybe it was just a plan to boost his ego wanting to explain about something he thought others didn't know about and that wasn't going as he planned.
I doubt it had anything to do with racism. When the other guy showed up the dealer got to talk about them, which is what he wanted.
Everyone has their own perception of reality.
It's terrible you or anyone would be treated so harshly and unfairly. A quick reminder: with all you have going in your life- a wonderful son, on and on... ask yourself: would you rather be YOU or would you rather be HIM.
Your answer may bring peace and a bit of solace if not even delight and will weaken the poor feelings you have for the dealer and the experience.
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Leo
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Third, a serious question. Why are you telling us this story?
Unless you are prepared to question every "Thanks to ____ for a great coin/deal/lunch/email/discussion", I'm not sure this is even a valid question.
In many ways, I would say this post is MORE important than those other options. I'm sure everyone who read it asked themselves, "how would I have responded", or better, "I don't do things like that, do I?"
I agree with the OP's stance that names should probably be left out of it. Could have been a bad day, one time offense. Or maybe apologies would be graciously offered, if we brought the parties together. We'll never know.
But I think it's a good thing for all of us to see and think about.
The guy is clearly dim-witted and uncultured. Maybe his rudeness has something to do with your dress or ethnicity and maybe it doesn't. You never really know. Whenever I deal with people who work on commission I try to show up in jeans and a T-shirt, and hopefully with a couple of kids in tow. It sorts out those I can do business with from the others. Bob said it best - we all profile every person we meet. "Is that guy going to rob me? Is that guy wanting to sell something? Is that guy an easy mark? Is that a mustard stain?" It keeps us safe and we use our prior life experience to inform our next move. That said, I find it incomprehensible that those with merchandise to sell can't be bothered to treat everyone with a bit of courtesy. For that matter I can't understand why we all just can't be friends and neighbors.
Have you ever looked around at a typical coin show? It's downright sad how alike everyone is. This hobby could really use some diversity, be it racial, gender, age or anything else.
One final thought..... There is something about hobbies in general, and numismatics in particular, that attracts people from the outskirts of normal human behavior. If you expect everyone at a coin show to act rationally, you will leave dissatisfied the majority of the time.
Oh, and welcome to the forum!
This is a fascinating thread. Not much about numismatics, but fascinating.
First, I'm glad the show worked out well for your son. That's the most important thing.
Second, what's the point of complaining to the show chairman? When life confronts you with a jerk, it's your job to deal with it, if you can. When the dealer asked you "Do you know what this is?", it would have been far more satisfying and productive to tell him everything you know about the medals - except their value
Third, a serious question. Why are you telling us this story?
coins for sale at link below (read carefully)
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I do rent property for a living, I profile to decide whether I will be able to collect the rent. I do not care what nationality you are but a few minute conversation will tell me if I want to rent to you. After 25 years I am a pretty good judge of those that will pay on time.
Heck my wife signed me up with a womens name on this site. lol
NGC registry V-Nickel proof #6!!!!
working on proof shield nickels # 8 with a bullet!!!!
RIP "BEAR"
I do rent property for a living, I profile to decide whether I will be able to collect the rent. I do not care what nationality you are but a few minute conversation will tell me if I want to rent to you. After 25 years I am a pretty good judge of those that will pay on time.
Heck my wife signed me up with a womens name on this site. lol
NGC registry V-Nickel proof #6!!!!
working on proof shield nickels # 8 with a bullet!!!!
RIP "BEAR"
I have never nor would I ever treat someone who stopped at my table with that kind of behavior.
On the other hand, I HAVE had a few verbal altercations with dealers who were insanely stupid, petty and territorial.
OK, one sort of bypassed the verbal phase, but, heck I was young.
I don't know the OP, but I can tell you this: perception = reality.
What the OP felt was the reality of the situation, based on his life experience, which of course is not the same as yours or mine.
Was he profiled? Perhaps. Perhaps not. Doesn't matter. No way anyone will ever know.
All the OP can control in this scenario is how he reacts to it.
Some collectors/dealers delight in sharing knowledge. Others guard it jealously. I think this dealer was of the latter type.
Pat's comment was spot on: I'd rather be the OP than the obnoxious dealer.
To the OP: I wouldn't, no, I'll rephrase that; I would refuse to let a jerk like that ruin a show for me.
I would shake my head, mutter under my breath maybe, after all "You can't fix stupid".
You truly can't.
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1. There are jerks.
2. Most jerks are harmless.
3. No reason to let jerks ruin your day (and you didn't).
One lesson that you and your boy did not learn:
1. It's legal to be a jerk.
Were it not, we would have to quadruple our police force to process them all! I did not see the reason to escalate the encounter with the show manager, however. The guy paid his $120 (or whatever) for his table and so long as he was not verbally or physically assaulting the public, he is within his rights to behave in a boorish fashion.
We do not know his motivation for treating you as he did, but I am inclined that the young, inquisitive boy had more to do with it than your skin color. I have had similar, though not as dramatic, experiences when I took my son to coin shows years ago. I think having a kid in tow marks you as someone who is not a serious player. Just my opinion...
I would like to toss out one more possibility. Until recently, it did not occur to me, but I am convinced that there is a disproportionate number of people in the coin hobby with Asperger syndrome, on both sides of the table, and perhaps this is a partial explanation for the odd encounter today.
Kudos for taking your son to the coin show, for your scholarship in the field of numismatics, for not letting the negative encounter ruin your day, and for posting a well written piece on the forum!
Third, a serious question. Why are you telling us this story?
I agree with the OP's stance that names should probably be left out of it. Could have been a bad day, one time offense. Or maybe apologies would be graciously offered, if we brought the parties together. We'll never know.
But I think it's a good thing for all of us to see and think about.
Screw that! Make a HUGE scene at his table, shout something like "I don't care what you say, I am NOT an illegal alien!", complain to the organizers, drag the organizers to his table, and then invite the turrd out to the parking lot for a righteous beat down. Make sure your kid gets a few kicks in while the dealer is down on the pavement. So many coin dealers are scumbag losers worthy of really sh!tty treatment. Don't pass up the opportunity to put these dirtbags in their place.
Enjoy collecting, learn from the pit falls of dealing with diversity and move on.
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There is no excuse and informing the show Chairman is exactly the right thing to do. While most show Chairmen would prefer the table fees the smart ones know there's a liability potential to consider.
The OP had an agenda, shame he had to bring his kid into it.
He complained loud and clear to everyone, even to us.
In this day and age and especially with a child in public, you should have left at the first sign of confrontation.
OCD runs rampant in this hobby
Why didn't you answer the guys question? 'It is a 1902 medal commemorating the Wells Fargo semicentennial' or whatever it was
It does seem like that would have been a normal response.
There are always two sides to a story. Maybe the dealer perceived an attitude from the OP which the OP may not have intended or even realized?
Apparently the dealer brought them to the show to show them off and wanted to talk about them, not to sell them.
Maybe it was just a plan to boost his ego wanting to explain about something he thought others didn't know about and that wasn't going as he planned.
I doubt it had anything to do with racism. When the other guy showed up the dealer got to talk about them, which is what he wanted.
Everyone has their own perception of reality.
Couldn't agree with this more...including welcome to the forum...the cantankerous and ornery nature of some dealers at shows never surprises me (in fact it is one of the reasons I took a break from the hobby 8 of the last 9 years). At the same time, I have established great relationships with other dealers at the very same shows who are nice and want to work with clients/expand their business. I choose to work with those who are honest, accountable and professional, and I always pass by those who fall short of my criteria. When they do fall short of my expectations, one time or multiple times, depending on the issue/issues, there is no reason to stop at their table no matter what they have and how aggressive the prices are in the future. Any business is a relationship business.
It is not about race, politics (please review the first response to the OP... thank you), the amount of money I have in my wallet, the amount of knowledge I have, the amount of knowledge the dealer has, my numismatic resume, the dealers numismatic resume...it is about people and treating them right. You never know when a Tirekicker will take their collecting more seriously. Treating a 2 figure buyer right today, may result in a 5 figure buyer down the road.
With that said: Do I have a list of dealers and collectors that I will never work with...absolutely. Do I have several good why collectors/dealers drink stories...sure, but no sense getting all spun up about it. They are not going to change, their perceptions of acceptability are obviously much different than mine. That is why I choose not to work with them.
Just move on and ignore their stupidity/attitude moving forward.
Rob
Successful Trades with: Coincast, MICHAELDIXON
Successful Purchases from: Manorcourtman, Meltdown
Lots of creepy, shady dealers out there.....they are only shooting themselves in the foot in the long run IMO.
But for every one bad dealer experience; I've had about 10 good ones.
Same with people in general.
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While I am extremely fortunate in America to be a white male, and not face profiling because of that, I've definitely felt that I was given the cold should at shows due to my age and the fact that 9 times out of 10 I wear bright shorts, a t shirt and flip flops to shows. Not exactly the type you'd expect to know what the hell they're doing in numismatics. But for every dealer like that, theres a dozen who are willing to judge collector's on their appropriate merits. On the whole, I'd say my good experiences outweigh bad ones on a great scale.
People like the dealer in question are not worthy of ones dollars there are too many dealers and lots and lots of coins none are unique in most cases. Today a collector does not need a dealer and a dealer needs to realize it is a privilege a customer does business with them.
If a customer selects a dealer to do business with the dealer needs to consider that it is a choice and value that customer.
Well done to the op he acted like a decent person in spite of a real challenge by a dealer who acts in such a self destructive manner the market today will adjust for such actions word gets around.
The other side of the coin.
The OP had an agenda, shame he had to bring his kid into it.
He complained loud and clear to everyone, even to us.
In this day and age and especially with a child in public, you should have left at the first sign of confrontation.
Huh
Come on.... dealers size up Show goers all the time ...The Op doesn't' know if was any sort of profiling ..he didn't go back to ask dealer .. I have seen it tens of times.. at ANA shows and local shows... young ,old.. poor looking and whatever.. Even I was insulted while looking at an 1879CC Morgan in shorts ,tank top.. I ask the dealer why he was so curt in replys about the coin .. he said he sorry ..wasn't feeling good .. he had surgery scheduled the following week.. Op Agenda ?? look at the agenda of many of these posters above ....LOL Again