Home U.S. Coin Forum

UK NCLT not redeemable for cash. Could US follow suit?

ZoinsZoins Posts: 34,401 ✭✭✭✭✭
The British Royal Mint is now refusing to redeem commemorative coins at face value.

Could other countries follow their lead?

Comments

  • silverpopsilverpop Posts: 6,721 ✭✭✭✭✭
    if they do a lot of people will be holding the bag so to speak



    but if people are willing to buy such coins they need to be aware of the laws that are in place



    that govern such items

    graded silver coins (NEED TO SELL ASAP)
    link below
    https://photos.app.goo.gl/7bPCP787VCZCCKb67

  • 19Lyds19Lyds Posts: 26,492 ✭✭✭✭
    Soooooooooooo, for a 100 lb CnClad British Commemorative , I could understand if that were in fact the case. And for that matter, I was under the impression that the coins were sold for more than their marked value anyway. Is that right or wrong??



    I can think of Zero Examples of "Legal Tender" US Commemoratives which have an intrinsic precious metal content less than the marked legal tender value. As such, turning them in to a bank would be as silly as those folks that turn in Morgans for face value. Literally ANYBODY that knows ANYTHING about silver coins would not hesitate to pay the buck for a Morgan so the banks here wouldn't lose anything. Pay a dollar for a Silver Eagle? Absolutely! How many you got at that price!!



    Heck, even the 5 oz Hockey Pucks are only worth 25 cents!



    What are our gold commemoratives marked as? The Mark Twain is $5. The National Parks is $5.

    First Spouses are $10.



    As for other countries? I don't buy foreign on the premise that I could legally spend them when I'm over seas so it's really a moot point.
    I decided to change calling the bathroom the John and renamed it the Jim. I feel so much better saying I went to the Jim this morning.



    The name is LEE!
  • derrybderryb Posts: 37,560 ✭✭✭✭✭
    The US Mint is not empowered to determine what is legal tender or what is not. They are empowered to produce what they are told to produce.

    US law (31 U.S. Code § 5112) authorizes the striking and issue of US coinage and declares such coinage to be legal tender.
  • TopographicOceansTopographicOceans Posts: 6,535 ✭✭✭✭
    At least US commemoratives will always be worth melt value.
  • ZoinsZoins Posts: 34,401 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Originally posted by: TopographicOceans
    At least US commemoratives will always be worth melt value.


    Don't forget the clad commems!
  • TopographicOceansTopographicOceans Posts: 6,535 ✭✭✭✭
    Originally posted by: Zoins
    Originally posted by: TopographicOceans
    At least US commemoratives will always be worth melt value.


    Don't forget the clad commems!
    I did indeed.
    The UK's mistake was issuing the face value above the melt value.

    With the US having one ounce $50 gold and $100 platinum coins, it shouldn't be an issue here until the PM's take a massive nose dive.

  • jdimmickjdimmick Posts: 9,754 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I would agree, very few if any US commems that value less than the PM content. Now for several years when I buy like 2 pc statue of Lib sets or congressional and a few others, I pay only for the silver coin, and spend the half.
    I used to sell them on ebay, but you cant get rid of them so I don't any longer
  • SaorAlbaSaorAlba Posts: 7,593 ✭✭✭✭✭
    The concept of "legal tender" is quite a bit different in Great Britain and has been for a long time. For instance Bank of England issued banknotes are legal tender in England and Wales only in all amounts issued - in Scotland and N. Ireland they only have legal tender coins, but only up to certain amounts ie 20p for 1p coins etc. Bank of England notes are NOT legal tender in Scotland or N. Ireland, back when 1 Pound notes were issued only the 1 Pound note was legal tender in both places. Now no 1 Pound notes are issued anywhere in Great Britain, only coins.



    In England of course Bank of England notes are universally accepted, and Scottish banknotes are tolerated particularly in the north of England but not in the south. N. Ireland notes only circulate in N. Ireland, and are tolerated in some ports in Scotland where there exists trade hither and tither.
    Tir nam beann, nan gleann, s'nan gaisgeach ~ Saorstat Albanaich a nis!
  • CaptHenwayCaptHenway Posts: 32,631 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Canada issued large five and ten dollar silver commemoratives for the 1976 Olympics. When silver cratered after the Hunt Brothers fiasco they became worth more as currency than as melt value and somebody attempted to deposit a bunch of them in their bank account...and the bank refused them, and the Canadian government sided with the bank. Eventually the RCM agreed to take the coins at face value if you were purchasing new RCM product.



    Back in the 1970's after gold became legal to own again the Franklin Mint did a good business striking "legal tender" gold coins for countries like Jamaica and Panama. Many of them were even sold as "redeemable in U.S. Dollars." A writer named Les Fox decided to test the legal tender status of these coins, and he showed up at the Central Bank of Panama (or whatever they call it) with $10,000 face in Panamanian gold asking to redeem it. He was refused. He did the same in several other Caribbean nations and was refused every time. He then came back and wrote an expose and destroyed that market as a sham.



    Years ago the Japanese government issued a 100,000 Yen gold commemorative. Years later somebody attempted to redeem several of them and the Japanese government lied and said they were counterfeit. They were not.
    Numismatist. 50 year member ANA. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner numerous NLG Literary Awards.
  • bronco2078bronco2078 Posts: 10,425 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Originally posted by: CaptHenway
    Canada issued large five and ten dollar silver commemoratives for the 1976 Olympics. When silver cratered after the Hunt Brothers fiasco they became worth more as currency than as melt value and somebody attempted to deposit a bunch of them in their bank account...and the bank refused them, and the Canadian government sided with the bank. Eventually the RCM agreed to take the coins at face value if you were purchasing new RCM product.

    Back in the 1970's after gold became legal to own again the Franklin Mint did a good business striking "legal tender" gold coins for countries like Jamaica and Panama. Many of them were even sold as "redeemable in U.S. Dollars." A writer named Les Fox decided to test the legal tender status of these coins, and he showed up at the Central Bank of Panama (or whatever they call it) with $10,000 face in Panamanian gold asking to redeem it. He was refused. He did the same in several other Caribbean nations and was refused every time. He then came back and wrote an expose and destroyed that market as a sham.

    Years ago the Japanese government issued a 100,000 Yen gold commemorative. Years later somebody attempted to redeem several of them and the Japanese government lied and said they were counterfeit. They were not.



    Canada is pulling the same crap now with these $20 coins and people have tried to redeem them and been refused.
  • BillJonesBillJones Posts: 34,681 ✭✭✭✭✭
    The only coins the U.S. could refuse are the commemorative half dollars. At $1 for almost an ounce of silver and $5 for almost quarter ounce of gold, the precious metal coins will always melt for more than their face value unless the gold and silver markets really collapse. The total face value of the half dollars is so trivial, in the relative sense, that I could never see the government dishonoring them.
    Retired dealer and avid collector of U.S. type coins, 19th century presidential campaign medalets and selected medals. In recent years I have been working on a set of British coins - at least one coin from each king or queen who issued pieces that are collectible. I am also collecting at least one coin for each Roman emperor from Julius Caesar to ... ?
  • SaorAlbaSaorAlba Posts: 7,593 ✭✭✭✭✭
    At least in France and Germany pre-Euro you could redeem the high denomination coins, ie 100FF and 10DM coins that were silver, but worth more than the melt value of the silver.
    Tir nam beann, nan gleann, s'nan gaisgeach ~ Saorstat Albanaich a nis!
  • berylberyl Posts: 131 ✭✭✭
    If you can't redeem it anywhere the denomination is meaningless. They might as well issue million pound "coin " - or should I say medal since these pieces of metal can't be used as money.
  • Kaline6Kaline6 Posts: 345
    Originally posted by: SaorAlba
    The concept of "legal tender" is quite a bit different in Great Britain and has been for a long time. For instance Bank of England issued banknotes are legal tender in England and Wales only in all amounts issued - in Scotland and N. Ireland they only have legal tender coins, but only up to certain amounts ie 20p for 1p coins etc. Bank of England notes are NOT legal tender in Scotland or N. Ireland, back when 1 Pound notes were issued only the 1 Pound note was legal tender in both places. Now no 1 Pound notes are issued anywhere in Great Britain, only coins.

    In England of course Bank of England notes are universally accepted, and Scottish banknotes are tolerated particularly in the north of England but not in the south. N. Ireland notes only circulate in N. Ireland, and are tolerated in some ports in Scotland where there exists trade hither and tither.


    I have spent Bank of Scotland notes many times in London, but I always ask first. Because the Scottish notes change rather frequently, some smaller London merchants aren't happy to get them, because they aren't sure how to determine a counterfeit.

    In my experience pubs almost always take them. image

  • FredWeinbergFredWeinberg Posts: 5,913 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Whenever this type of discussion has ever come up,

    I always say that if silver goes to $1 and gold to $20,

    having coins with higher face values will be the LEAST

    of our problems!
    Retired Collector & Dealer in Major Mint Error Coins & Currency since the 1960's.Co-Author of Whitman's "100 Greatest U.S. Mint Error Coins", and the Error Coin Encyclopedia, Vols., III & IV. Retired Authenticator for Major Mint Errors for PCGS. A 50+ Year PNG Member.A full-time numismatist since 1972, retired in 2022.
  • amwldcoinamwldcoin Posts: 11,269 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Originally posted by: SaorAlba

    At least in France and Germany pre-Euro you could redeem the high denomination coins, ie 100FF and 10DM coins that were silver, but worth more than the melt value of the silver.




    Most of the European country's really P*ss me off. I probably have over $1000 in exchange of pre Euro Coins.



    This is why the dollar is king as the US does honor the coins they issue. Ever stop and think how much money most of Europe stole from the rest of the world? France is one of the worst as they demonetized quite a few coins before the Euro!



  • CaptHenwayCaptHenway Posts: 32,631 ✭✭✭✭✭
    The reason why much of the world likes to hoard U.S. currency is that it NEVER gets demonetized. U.S. currency issued in the 1860's is still legal tender. No other country in the world can say that.
    Numismatist. 50 year member ANA. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner numerous NLG Literary Awards.
  • FullStrikeFullStrike Posts: 4,353 ✭✭✭
    Are we missing the point here? Recently a handful of Countries starting issuing large denomination Coins at "face" value.



    For example one country might issue a 1 ounce Silver Coin ( silver melt value 15 Klopzens ) with a face value of 100 Klopzens. They would "sell" the Coins for

    100 Klopzens , or "face value". Seemingly you might feel your risk wasn't too bad since it seemed like you could always spend

    the Coin for exactly what you had in it. Seeing this as hurting their profit potential, some Banks backed out of the deal. No

    more redemption for what they had charged for the Coin.



    Not something to do if you want to keep your Customers satisfied.
  • I agree that we might be missing the point, but I mean in a more philosophical way.



    One definition of money is the expectation that you're not the last one to be holding the hot potato. Coins, paper currency, vials of crack, gold bars, pigs, chickens and many more have value in at least part because there is the expectation that someone else will want them. Whether that party is the ostensible end user or not isn't necessarily relevant to the current owner of a dollar bill or a chicken: the current owner is primarily interested in obtaining whatever good or service that they currently need (or might need in the future, I suppose).



    I'm sure a lot of places would take those commems. Places that are fully legal, semi legal and outright illegal. Same thing goes for any other form of "currency".



    I'm reminded of a PBS story from about 15 years ago about some artist who drew his own currency and tried to pay for it at Starbucks, etc. Some people would take it, some wouldn't, some would call the cops. And this isn't the only guy who's ever tried that, obviously. Lots of artists, celebs, musicians throughout history have tried to pay for meals for example with photos, autographs, drawings on napkins. Again, it speaks to the fundamental nature of barter.



    Lastly, I'm sure that you guys have heard stories, may have even been some of you, of the poor saps who go to Best Buy to purchase a fridge with 500 $2 bills. The dumb#(%* teenaged clerk who has been programmed to "say something if you see something" freaks out and the poor sap gets arrested for "passin weird lookin munney".



  • 3stars3stars Posts: 2,294 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Originally posted by: SaorAlba
    The concept of "legal tender" is quite a bit different in Great Britain and has been for a long time. For instance Bank of England issued banknotes are legal tender in England and Wales only in all amounts issued - in Scotland and N. Ireland they only have legal tender coins, but only up to certain amounts ie 20p for 1p coins etc. Bank of England notes are NOT legal tender in Scotland or N. Ireland, back when 1 Pound notes were issued only the 1 Pound note was legal tender in both places. Now no 1 Pound notes are issued anywhere in Great Britain, only coins.

    In England of course Bank of England notes are universally accepted, and Scottish banknotes are tolerated particularly in the north of England but not in the south. N. Ireland notes only circulate in N. Ireland, and are tolerated in some ports in Scotland where there exists trade hither and tither.


    Are you sure? I was in Belfast this past summer and recall using Bank of England notes. Definitely used British coins up to 2 pounds, still have them in my drawer.
    Previous transactions: Wondercoin, goldman86, dmarks, Type2
  • SaorAlbaSaorAlba Posts: 7,593 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Originally posted by: amwldcoin





    Most of the European country's really P*ss me off. I probably have over $1000 in exchange of pre Euro Coins.



    This is why the dollar is king as the US does honor the coins they issue. Ever stop and think how much money most of Europe stole from the rest of the world? France is one of the worst as they demonetized quite a few coins before the Euro!







    France did stop redemption of coin and banknotes, but I believe Germany is redeeming all issued since 1948 except one 50 DM note that was recalled ca. 1950 and has long been out of circulation. Netherlands is redeeming coin and banknote until 2032. I do have a pile of DM coins and some banknotes that I need to send over to Germany for redemption sometime.





    Tir nam beann, nan gleann, s'nan gaisgeach ~ Saorstat Albanaich a nis!
  • SaorAlbaSaorAlba Posts: 7,593 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Originally posted by: 3stars





    Are you sure? I was in Belfast this past summer and recall using Bank of England notes. Definitely used British coins up to 2 pounds, still have them in my drawer.




    BOE issued notes are universally accepted anywhere in the UK and their associated domains like Jersey, Isle of Man, Guernesey etc. It is the latter and the Northern Ireland and Scottish notes that raise concern particularly in England. Scottish notes tend to be tolerated around London and the north of England, but the Northern Irish ones might only be tolerated in some ferry ports otherwise forget about spending a Dansk Bank fiver in London.



    But, BOE notes are NOT legal tender in Scotland - only British coins are. Scotland and Northern Ireland get along for over 250+ years with commercial bank issued paper money that is back reserved with deposits with the Bank of England. There are some interesting judicial rulings on "legal tender" in Scotland - the Scottish court system usually rules that whatever is generally accepted as a means of payment is proper tender. So use British coin, Scottish notes or English notes and you are fine, try proffing off some Northern Ireland note or an Isle of Man note and you are not.



    Edited to add - when I was in Paris back in 2000 Scottish banknotes actually were purchased at a 1% premium over Bank of England notes because they had a quicker clearing system for remitting payment than the BoE did! However Northern Ireland notes were discounted at 2% because of the difficulty in clearing.



    Tir nam beann, nan gleann, s'nan gaisgeach ~ Saorstat Albanaich a nis!
  • ashelandasheland Posts: 23,624 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Originally posted by: TopographicOceans
    Originally posted by: Zoins
    Originally posted by: TopographicOceans
    At least US commemoratives will always be worth melt value.


    Don't forget the clad commems!
    I did indeed.
    The UK's mistake was issuing the face value above the melt value.

    With the US having one ounce $50 gold and $100 platinum coins, it shouldn't be an issue here until the PM's take a massive nose dive.



    image
    Canada is starting to do the same thing...
  • TwoSides2aCoinTwoSides2aCoin Posts: 44,509 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I pay 40% more for National Parks quarters, Native Ameircan (formerly the Shoshone woman Sacagawea) dollars, Kennedy halves and Presidential dollars from the U.S. Mint. Not finding many collectors to pay up for them, but I do it for the sake of a few.

    I don't think anyone has a problem spending them at face value , here.... Nor does our bank refuse them. image

    Seriously, we collectors who buy Disney coins from Australia or Canada are crazy. Someone needs to protect us from us. image
    I give up.
  • ashelandasheland Posts: 23,624 ✭✭✭✭✭
  • cladkingcladking Posts: 28,703 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Originally posted by: SaorAlba





    France did stop redemption of coin and banknotes, but I believe Germany is redeeming all issued since 1948 except one 50 DM note that was recalled ca. 1950 and has long been out of circulation. Netherlands is redeeming coin and banknote until 2032. I do have a pile of DM coins and some banknotes that I need to send over to Germany for redemption sometime.









    I got burned on quite a bit of French coins.



    There was very little time to redeem them and it was very poorly announced. Now they're worth $3 a pound.
    Tempus fugit.
  • 19Lyds19Lyds Posts: 26,492 ✭✭✭✭
    Originally posted by: TopographicOceans

    Originally posted by: Zoins

    Originally posted by: TopographicOceans

    At least US commemoratives will always be worth melt value.




    Don't forget the clad commems!
    I did indeed.

    The UK's mistake was issuing the face value above the melt value.



    With the US having one ounce $50 gold and $100 platinum coins, it shouldn't be an issue here until the PM's take a massive nose dive.





    Agreed.

    I decided to change calling the bathroom the John and renamed it the Jim. I feel so much better saying I went to the Jim this morning.



    The name is LEE!
  • HalfStrikeHalfStrike Posts: 2,202 ✭✭✭
    They were doing this with the U.S. Mint Presidential dollars. They were being sold at face value and people bought them and took them straight to the bank to run up airline points too. When the mint finally figured it out they canceled any direct purchase in bulk.

    U.S. Mint Ends The Dollar Coin “Scam” For Airline Miles
  • mustangmanbobmustangmanbob Posts: 1,890 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Think how many TONS of Pre Euro Coins are floating around in the US.

    I'll vote for president anyone who will force them to redeem all that stuff.

    Come on FRANCE, how much REALLY would it cost you to redeem the stuff compared to how irritated people are about "worthless" money.

    The only good part is when scrap metal was sky high, I sorted out coins by metal type, and one of the scrap yards redeemed them. He asked if they were worth anything, and I told him the countries gad declared them worthless, and scrap was the best thing, so he tossed them into the right piles. Brass was over $3 a pound, and copper was $4.25. Several hundred pounds bit the dust.

  • amwldcoinamwldcoin Posts: 11,269 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Originally posted by: SaorAlba

    Originally posted by: amwldcoin





    Most of the European country's really P*ss me off. I probably have over $1000 in exchange of pre Euro Coins.



    This is why the dollar is king as the US does honor the coins they issue. Ever stop and think how much money most of Europe stole from the rest of the world? France is one of the worst as they demonetized quite a few coins before the Euro!







    France did stop redemption of coin and banknotes, but I believe Germany is redeeming all issued since 1948 except one 50 DM note that was recalled ca. 1950 and has long been out of circulation. Netherlands is redeeming coin and banknote until 2032. I do have a pile of DM coins and some banknotes that I need to send over to Germany for redemption sometime.









    I would appreciate a link or something that shows where the Netherlands are still honoring these coins! The last year or 2 they allowed exchange you could only do so much at a time and had to have a Bank account there. At least that was what I was told quite a few years ago!



  • SaorAlbaSaorAlba Posts: 7,593 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Originally posted by: amwldcoin





    I would appreciate a link or something that shows where the Netherlands are still honoring these coins! The last year or 2 they allowed exchange you could only do so much at a time and had to have a Bank account there. At least that was what I was told quite a few years ago!







    Whoops, coins were only redeemable until 2007. I managed to spend all my guilders back in 2001 when I was there. I still have a bunch of Euro coins from Netherlands, Germany and Austria from my many trips to those countries.



    The good legacy coins were the old 1970s French 50FF coins that I bought in Paris for 35FF(abt $7.50) - they have .86oz fine silver - in 2000 silver was very low and the coins sold for melt. I also have a pile of 100FF coins from the 1990s but they are still not worth the 100FF.



    Tir nam beann, nan gleann, s'nan gaisgeach ~ Saorstat Albanaich a nis!

Leave a Comment

BoldItalicStrikethroughOrdered listUnordered list
Emoji
Image
Align leftAlign centerAlign rightToggle HTML viewToggle full pageToggle lights
Drop image/file