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Krause COTY Collection
fireman2030
Posts: 95 ✭✭
When I was looking for a new collecting challenge a couple years ago - I decided that world coins were what I wanted to move into because of a number of reasons. I researched several World Registry Sets that would be a potential new endeavor for me to pursue.
I came across the Krause Coin of the Year Set with no prior knowledge of the annual contest. I was intrigued by this set for a number of reasons:
1.) The size of this collection is very large (currently 278 coins) and I figured that alone would keep me busy for a couple years.
2.) The low mintage numbers of many of the coins in this set - with several coins having a total mintage of several HUNDRED coins minted
3.) The growing reputation of the Coin of the Year selection process
4.) The diversity of the origins of these coins
5.) The absolute beauty of many of the coins and their packaging
OK, I've also read many of the criticisms of these coins: "gaudy", "gimmicky", "too commercial". However, I would bet that many of these critics have only seen pictures of these coins and not actually seen the actual coin. We all know that having the physical coin in our hands looks much differently than pictures posted on a web site. As far as many of the quotes above that I listed, it struck me that those were the same feeling I had about the recent issues coming out of the US Mint and is what actually helped me decide to walk away from my Top Rated PCGS Sacagawea Registry Set. I have been very pleasantly surprised at how beautiful many of these coins actually are and how differently they appear compared to pictures. I'll be the first to admit that not all are beautiful but I tell myself they are from a different culture that may look at their beauty differently than I do.
As far as the size of the collection, I took a very disciplined and methodical approach to amass such a large number of coins. Most of the coins in my set were purchased raw and submitted to PCGS for inclusion in this set. As a result, many of the coins came with their OGP, which was an added treat for me as I like to take in the whole picture. I read a quote by someone who stated that this is a relatively easy collection to assemble and that most coins in this set are readily available on the coin market - I had to laugh because obviously this individual has not made an attempt to assemble this collection himself. Yes - there is low hanging fruit with high mintage numbers that are easy to acquire. However, I have spent countless hours in the pursuit of coins that have several hundred or less coins minted in this set and many have not been easy to come across. I have developed a reliable network of dealers across the world that have assisted with finding coins. There are several coins in this set that I wrote off early in this process because of their low mintage numbers and figuring they would be near impossible to find. Many of these coins were not easy or cheap to locate and there are still several more that are going to be hard to find but one thing I've learned on this journey is that nothing is impossible. Surprisingly, some of the remaining coins I need have relatively high mintage numbers but have been extremely hard to locate. The 2012 Finland, Helsinki World Design coin is one such example with a mintage of 5,000.
The best part of this collection has been seeing the craftsmanship, precision and presentation of many of these coins. Austria and Great Britain stand out as two mints that produce very beautify coins. The Pobjoy Mint is one that stands out in my mind as producing very precise coins that are well packaged. Sometimes less is more and there are several coins produced by the Franklin Mint in this set that are beautiful because of their simplicity. As far as the coins that some may feel are "gimmicky" because they are colorized or laser etched - I would tell you get over it because several countries have really perfected the process. Japan's 2006 1,000 yen 50th Anniversary of the UN is one such coin, as is Canada's 2006 Palladium $50 Ursa Major and Minor series.
I invite you to take a look at this collection before casting your judgement. If you want a challenging collection to assemble, I openly invite the competition.
I came across the Krause Coin of the Year Set with no prior knowledge of the annual contest. I was intrigued by this set for a number of reasons:
1.) The size of this collection is very large (currently 278 coins) and I figured that alone would keep me busy for a couple years.
2.) The low mintage numbers of many of the coins in this set - with several coins having a total mintage of several HUNDRED coins minted
3.) The growing reputation of the Coin of the Year selection process
4.) The diversity of the origins of these coins
5.) The absolute beauty of many of the coins and their packaging
OK, I've also read many of the criticisms of these coins: "gaudy", "gimmicky", "too commercial". However, I would bet that many of these critics have only seen pictures of these coins and not actually seen the actual coin. We all know that having the physical coin in our hands looks much differently than pictures posted on a web site. As far as many of the quotes above that I listed, it struck me that those were the same feeling I had about the recent issues coming out of the US Mint and is what actually helped me decide to walk away from my Top Rated PCGS Sacagawea Registry Set. I have been very pleasantly surprised at how beautiful many of these coins actually are and how differently they appear compared to pictures. I'll be the first to admit that not all are beautiful but I tell myself they are from a different culture that may look at their beauty differently than I do.
As far as the size of the collection, I took a very disciplined and methodical approach to amass such a large number of coins. Most of the coins in my set were purchased raw and submitted to PCGS for inclusion in this set. As a result, many of the coins came with their OGP, which was an added treat for me as I like to take in the whole picture. I read a quote by someone who stated that this is a relatively easy collection to assemble and that most coins in this set are readily available on the coin market - I had to laugh because obviously this individual has not made an attempt to assemble this collection himself. Yes - there is low hanging fruit with high mintage numbers that are easy to acquire. However, I have spent countless hours in the pursuit of coins that have several hundred or less coins minted in this set and many have not been easy to come across. I have developed a reliable network of dealers across the world that have assisted with finding coins. There are several coins in this set that I wrote off early in this process because of their low mintage numbers and figuring they would be near impossible to find. Many of these coins were not easy or cheap to locate and there are still several more that are going to be hard to find but one thing I've learned on this journey is that nothing is impossible. Surprisingly, some of the remaining coins I need have relatively high mintage numbers but have been extremely hard to locate. The 2012 Finland, Helsinki World Design coin is one such example with a mintage of 5,000.
The best part of this collection has been seeing the craftsmanship, precision and presentation of many of these coins. Austria and Great Britain stand out as two mints that produce very beautify coins. The Pobjoy Mint is one that stands out in my mind as producing very precise coins that are well packaged. Sometimes less is more and there are several coins produced by the Franklin Mint in this set that are beautiful because of their simplicity. As far as the coins that some may feel are "gimmicky" because they are colorized or laser etched - I would tell you get over it because several countries have really perfected the process. Japan's 2006 1,000 yen 50th Anniversary of the UN is one such coin, as is Canada's 2006 Palladium $50 Ursa Major and Minor series.
I invite you to take a look at this collection before casting your judgement. If you want a challenging collection to assemble, I openly invite the competition.
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maybe put the link up - especially if you want comments or what...
What a fabulous idea - Thanks!:
Brandywine PCGS Coin of the Year Registry Set Link
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The COTY is a Krause born idea, it promotes 95-98% NCLT coins, of which IMHO ,the vast majority are terribly ugly and way overpriced for what they are. In the very few cases that the mintage is in the hundreds, the demand is in the dozens. The registry set in the link provided was beyond disappointing, most coins were barely 2-4 years old, and practically all overpriced NCLT versions of various countries.
In fact I have so many arguments against it, that I'd rather stop now. Good luck in your new adventure. And please do not misunderstand my hostile comments towards this competition, it's a personal thing between me and NCLTs mostly, but here it's even worse.
myEbay
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There's always the other side of things. I'm going to say it, because my fellow Darksiders are too polite and they have grasped the idea of "if you have nothing good to say, then don't say anything at all". I still haven't grasped the usefulness of a lack of critique.
The COTY is a Krause born idea, it promotes 95-98% NCLT coins, of which IMHO ,the vast majority are terribly ugly and way overpriced for what they are. In the very few cases that the mintage is in the hundreds, the demand is in the dozens. The registry set in the link provided was beyond disappointing, most coins were barely 2-4 years old, and practically all overpriced NCLT versions of various countries.other
In fact I have so many arguments against it, that I'd rather stop now. Good luck in your new adventure. And please do not misunderstand my hostile comments towards this competition, it's a personal thing between me and NCLTs mostly, but here it's even worse.
+1
I prefer my coins (or coin types) to be those that were actually made for and used in commerce altho I do admit to having several NCLTs which fit into other collections and actively pursue some medals (eg Vatican/papal, jetons, etc) which is something else entirely. Versus made for collectors issues, to me such material is infinitely more historic/significant, more challenging, often more difficult to find but ironically often more affordable to boot. Some "sets" are immense; for instance my roman "folles" of RIC VI collection currently numbers well over 500 varieties/coins from 294-312 yet even now a new purchase may reveal something new about the series I hadn't seen before.
But to each his own and join Dimitri in wishing you the best of luck on your quest. After you finish your set (looks like you're close), if you'd really like a challenge, I'd invite you to consider putting together a set of all worldwide coins made for circulation for your birthyear. Krause's circulating coin catalog does a decent (altho not always consistent) job of identying such issues vs the standard "phone book." I'm working on this for my birth year. Generally most coins are modestly priced but it continues to be an incredible challenge to find many "cheap" coins, especially in higher grades, while providing incredible insight into issuers at the time.
There's always the other side of things. I'm going to say it, because my fellow Darksiders are too polite and they have grasped the idea of "if you have nothing good to say, then don't say anything at all". I still haven't grasped the usefulness of a lack of critique.
The COTY is a Krause born idea, it promotes 95-98% NCLT coins, of which IMHO ,the vast majority are terribly ugly and way overpriced for what they are. In the very few cases that the mintage is in the hundreds, the demand is in the dozens. The registry set in the link provided was beyond disappointing, most coins were barely 2-4 years old, and practically all overpriced NCLT versions of various countries.
In fact I have so many arguments against it, that I'd rather stop now. Good luck in your new adventure. And please do not misunderstand my hostile comments towards this competition, it's a personal thing between me and NCLTs mostly, but here it's even worse.
Thanks for your honest opinion - something we are all entitled to. I have always said that you only get your feelings hurt is you have feelings in the first place. Now, I'll share a few things with you.
As I stated in my original post, many of these coins where very surprisingly different once I had them in hand. This included coins I thought would be more attractive than they actually were and vice versa. I don't know how many of these coins you have had the opportunity to see in person but I am very confident that you too would be very pleasantly surprised with a few of these if you had the opportunity to see the in person. I live in Pennsylvania and would extend an open invitation for you to come and see these coins for yourself.
The Set in the link I provided is MY set. It took many hours of MY time to get the layout of that set to where it is today and research each coin so that I may provide accurate information to those collectors, that unlike you, are actually interested in the set. I hope your "disappointment" is with the idea of the Krause Coin of the Year and not with my particular Set.
Perhaps you noticed that the set dates back to 1984. While this is not a terribly old set, by my math that is more than "2-4 years old"
What I have always enjoyed about my fellow hobbyists is that we recognize that we all have a personal reason for enjoying a particular coin, set or type of coin - that is unique to us as individuals. To take that a step further, the hobbyists I have always interacted with seem to have a a fundamental understanding of this and while we may not "see" the same thing in a coin or series that our fellow collector does, we respect the difference in opinion without completely degrading each other's taste.
I wish you luck as well in whatever it is you enjoy to collect
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Fireman, I am sorry. I've read that the COTY award exists since 1984, but I didn't see any coins that old in your set, that I did not know it was your set (and I apologize for my comments on it too). If there are, I must have looked at it very quickly, and I've probably missed them.
A good example of how this competition started is in these very first years of it. In 1986, the COTY award (I'm sorry, I cannot specify which category in particular, although I think that there were much less 30 years ago) was won by a Greek 50 Drs, KM 147 if I'm not mistaken, that replaced one of the ugliest post WW2 coins from Greece, KM 124, the previous 50 drs that circulated for 5 years only.I've noticed that there was another Greek coin in your set, the 2012 silver NCLT 10 euro ,that the Bank of Greece was selling for 60-70 euros as price of issue and most buyers were simply buying it and reselling it for twice or three times as much as soon as it was sold out, i.e. within 48 hours at the most.
The coin that you have in your set, exists in gold too. The size and weight of a gold sovereign approximately, it was sold by the bank for twice the price of a gold sovereign, a disgraceful 100% profit on its precious metal content by the Bank itself. The percentage of course is 300-400% on its silver version, but because the final selling price was much cheaper, it found a lot of euro collectors who didn't hesitate to pay even 500% -700% above its BV in the secondary market in order to add it to their collection.
The designer of both coins that won the competition, as well as several 2 euro coins that won yearly competitions and were adopted by all the euro countries is a good friend of mine. In fact we both did the basic training for the compulsory military service together (we were at the Airforce). I've learned that only recently, when the designer had been invited by the Panhellenic Coin Club to give a lecture.
After the lecture, someone asked him, what are his own collecting interests. His answer was shocking: he said "I'm basically trying to collect everything that I have designed -and went into production- first, circulation and commemorative coins and then I'll see."
In other words, the National Mint, or the Bank of Greece didn't even offer him a single example of everything that he has designed so far for free, and he's probably the most awarded European designer since 2002.... And of course, in a country entering its 8th year of crisis, spending ~$2K per year to buy his own creations is easier said than done. This was a heavy shock to me, and it only helped to increase my contempt for all these innumerable NCLTs that the Banks of the World sell to collectors with the sole purpose of ripping them off.
The Leuchtturm catalogue 2015 of all the euros, circulating and NCLTs from all the countries has already 488 pages on coins, with an average of 8 coins per page, without counting the sections with the complete yearly sets of each country, quite often presented in 4-5 various packagings, adding a silver commem or not , mint sets or proof sets, and by adding these yearly 2 euro commemorative coins that are sold at face value or not.That's only during the past 13 years. Is this an effort to bring young collectors to the hobby, or a money making machine taking advantage of the collectors' OCD to have complete sets?
You see why I told you I should have stopped when I've stopped? This is a boring monologue. In any case, if it makes you happy and it fulfills your collecting appetite, congrats and it's certainly none of my business to criticize what each of us collects. My arrows had a different target, but most likely, I didn't express my thoughts in a proper and coherent way. Again, if you are happy, then that's all that counts and next time I'll try to keep my thoughts to myself.
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DPOTD 3
I hope your "disappointment" is with the idea of the Krause Coin of the Year and not with my particular Set.
And I hope that by now, this is clear. It's the idea of the COTY along with the excessive production of NCLTs -that it silently promotes- that I'm against, I have nothing against your set. It also limits you to a 31 year span to date, which by Darkside standards is fractions of a second, but again, if it doesn't bother you, or if you don't get a feeling of overall resemblance among the coins, despite their diversity in origins and designs, why should it bother me?
There's one rather unusual and minimalistic coin I truly like in your set. It's that French wave shaped silver coin from 2001, with a nominal value of one franc: L'ultime franc that also exists in gold. I have it too and it should easily win the coin of the decade award if you ask me. I wonder how it fits in a slab though, considering its "thickness" if we count the latter from the highest to the lowest point of the wave, along with the thickness of the coin itself.
From your post: This included coins I thought would be more attractive than they actually were and vice versa.
Why? Because someone else decided what's nice and what's not. For instance, Austrian commemorative euros, win competition after competition. Personally, I can't stand them, just as I can't stand any coin that's so "busy" with almost no empty fields left in the design. But give me some 300-400 year old Austrian talers and/or minors and you'll see me changing my ideas on Austrian designs within seconds.
I live in Pennsylvania and would extend an open invitation for you to come and see these coins for yourself.
We live a few thousand miles plus the Atlantic ocean away from each other,but I might take you up on this one day.
myEbay
DPOTD 3
There's one rather unusual and minimalistic coin I truly like in your set. It's that French wave shaped silver coin from 2001, with a nominal value of one franc: L'ultime franc that also exists in gold. I have it too and it should easily win the coin of the decade award if you ask me. I wonder how it fits in a slab though, considering its "thickness" if we count the latter from the highest to the lowest point of the wave, along with the thickness of the coin itself.
I live in Pennsylvania and would extend an open invitation for you to come and see these coins for yourself.
We live a few thousand miles plus the Atlantic ocean away from each other,but I might take you up on this one day.
Syracusian
Thank you for your clarification - some very interesting information was provided.
As far as the 2001 French Last Franc - PCGS housed it in a wider slab so it fit nicely with the wave shape. I agree with you - it is a very attractive coin. On that note, another favorite of mine due to its simplicity is the 1984 Barbados $10 Dolphins coin. The picture doesn't do it justice but I assure you in person that its simplicity is very attractive.
My offer stands......
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We all know that we are all here to collect whatever we enjoy. If you don't like NCLT, then instead of saying so and back-peddling with "I respect others opinions" perhaps better to not post anything at all.
Amat Colligendo Focum
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I am really sick and tired of the anti NCLT comments. Especially arguments that NCLT of smaller nations aren't really coins due to lack of circulation or handling by natives (ex: the Franklin Mint products for island nations). When you look at the rare, highly valued coins these individuals desire (rare strikes or rare condition, etc.) and you recognize said coins received little to zero circulation or handling, it smacks of hypocrisy. Nobody ever circulated a 1913 V nickel, and none of the members here ever circulated a 1933 Saint-Gaudens, yet nobody has any issue attributing them to American coinage. Likewise, there are plenty of high-denomination currencies produced for government transport, like the $10,000 banknote, which are not actually intended to circulate, yet they are legal tender. Nobody criticizes collectors of those notes.
By way of full disclosure, my collection has coins, medals, a few NCLTs which seemed to fit within a broader collection, currency, scrip, ephemera, exonumia, and even a few silver bars that I picked up years ago. That being said, a few points of clarification:
1. There seems to be confusion about what a circulating issue is. I refer to the introduction of Krause's "Collecting World Coins Circulating Issues 1901-2000." The catalog defines it's scope as "comprising issues which were struck for circulation" and further "what you will not find listed are those coins issues expressly created for non monetary purposes, including limited issue commemorative coinages." (emphasis mine). There's no wisp of "hypocrisy" in collecting a high grade coin within this definition; that is, a given coin does not have to have been circulated (which is what seems to be claimed) to be a legitimate circulating issue. One might quibble about mint sets which sell at a premium, I suppose, altho those provide a convenient way to obtain such issues and which are, by the way, otherwise indistinguishable from coins distributed into commercial channels in bags or rolls. One could even stretch this to proof issues of such coins since an issue of that design was made for circulation. In no case do NCLTs, made expressly to be sold to collectors at a premium, fit this definition. To take it a bit further, while the general public seems to consider anything that is round and medal as a coin (including tokens, medals, tax chits, etc) a common definition of a coin is that it is a piece of metal issued by a government for use as money. NCLTs again do not fit this definition.
2. I don't understand the coin examples. Walter Breen's Encyclopedia of US Coinage notes that the 1913 Liberty nickel was not officially made. I honestly don't recall, but I don't think the typical coin album includes a place for it. Also 1933 Eagles and Double Eagles were made in some quantity to be released into circulation, not to be sold to collectors at a premium. FDR's March 1933 order prohibited further release of US gold coins into circulation. Breen notes that a few Eagles were, in fact, released officially early in 1933 but no double eagles were altho a few seem to have been spirited out of the Treasury. Nevertheless both 1933 issues would have fit into the Krause definition since they were produced to be released into circulation.
3. In terms of currency, not sure what is referred to regarding a $10k note. There were both Gold, Legal Tender and much later Federal Reserve Notes which did circulate amongst banks as well as in general commerce (albeit to a limited extent). There are some uniface high denomination certificates of deposits/transfer documents in 10k denominations (which mimic the design of earlier gold certificates and of which cancelled examples are collected), but these did in fact circulate, facilitating the maintenance of bank reserves and settlements between national banks, clearinghouses and much later, the federal reserve. As luck would have it, there is a great article in the Mar/Apr 2016 Paper Money issue by Yates & Huntoon that discusses the 1872, 1875 and 1900 issues and their use in great detail.
Altho perhaps causing some discomfort, Dimitri's original comments are still on point: "There's always the other side of things. I'm going to say it, because my fellow Darksiders are too polite and they have grasped the idea of "if you have nothing good to say, then don't say anything at all". I still haven't grasped the usefulness of a lack of critique." And related to the euro issues in the Leuchtturm catalog: " Is this an effort to bring young collectors to the hobby, or a money making machine taking advantage of the collectors' OCD to have complete sets?"
I am not confused about what a "circulating issue" is... this thread is about NCLT (non circulating legal tender).
The confusion - no, the frustration - is why some collectors praise issues that never saw the light of day, which never set foot in their nation, perhaps coins that were rare mint strikes or probe that went straight from mint vault to slab -- and then talk negatively about Belize strikes from Franklin Mint. Maybe one is essai struck at King Norton, stuck in a vault, slabbed decades later, sold to collectors for a high premium. Another coin struck at Franklin Mint and sold to collectors at market value, slabbed decades later, perhaps resold at a premium. In some ways, the Belize example is more of a proper coin than the euro pattern.
It's true that some nations are notorious for issuing colorized dinosaurs and harry potter. Others, like Poland, simply have an obscene amount of NCLT commemorating various politicians and events. But not all NCLT are schlock product targeted at "OCD collectors."
Good luck telling lightsiders their 1913 nickel isn't a coin. I've had a copy of Breen's encyclopedia for twenty years now, no need to quote it for my benefit. A lot has transpired since it published, especially in World coinage. Definitions adapt. The $10k note, "what is referred to," is simple: sometimes governments will issue legal tender that is not meant for use by the general population as currency or money, and yet, it is still legal tender ... like NCLT coins.
I doubt the gentleman who designed the $10k banknote was given one for his personal collection ... I am sorry for Dimitri's friend - and D knows I have the utmost respect for him - but that situation has zero bearing on this discussion. Maybe his friend should negotiate a better contract?
Amat Colligendo Focum
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No, not like NCLT coins. STLNATS already made it clear (and such a thing exists in Canada too),that these banknotes exist for inter-bank purposes and nowadays they never see the light of day for use by general population. I can't speak for gold certs etc, because I have no idea. But to my knowledge, banks do not use NCLTs in the transactions between them.
France is even worse than Poland in regards to NCLTs. And this thread is not about NCLTs or about my friend, it was about the COTY award. If he were designing banknotes, which he isn't, he wouldn't expect the bureau of Engraving to offer him such notes, he'd be earning them through his work.
But the coins he designs, even the 2 euro commemoratives sold at face value, that enter circulation, he's never gotten a single one as a gift. But it's not about him either.
You take the Liberty nickel as an example and yet STLNATS mentioned other examples of US coins too,notably the 1933 eagle and double eagle in regards to FDR's March 1933 order, let alone that he said that there are no slots for these coins in albums. I was just reading an article about the 1822 half eagle that is about to be sold as part of the Brent Pogue collection, that is probably the rarest US coin, or so it was considered half a century ago. Did the US mint it as an NCLT? I don't think so.
what you will not find listed are those coins issues expressly created for non monetary purposes, including limited issue commemorative coinages.
a common definition of a coin is that it is a piece of metal issued by a government for use as money. NCLTs again do not fit this definition.
STLNAT's post is one of the finest posts written on the subject, I don't even know why I'm repeating parts of it. And I do not detect a condescending tone at all, I don't know how you've read it.
myEbay
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