Trade $ Experts - Never mind the grade, help me guess the year...

Outhaul

Browe

I'm seeing '74 from the pictures.

mbogoman

Definitely 1874. You can make out most of the bottom of the 4. It's a type 1 reverse, so you can automatically rule out 77 and 78...

Outhaul

Thanks, I thought that looked like the top of a seven. Now, if I could just make out the last digit.

Outhaul

Thanks guys. If I've said it once, I've said it a thousand times. The knowledge base on these forums is unparalleled.

Cheers

Bob

ricko

Looks like an 1874..... and that is a VERY chopmarked TD.....Cheers, RickO

oih82w8

1874...and shame on them for hacking her up like that!

Outhaul

I disagree. I think finding one that's pretty hacked up is kind of cool.

Cheers

Bob

Insider2

I disagree. Although the coin is a Type 1/Type 1, the date is 1873. There is a BOLD clue in the reverse legend. See if you can find it...

MonsterCoinz

Originally posted by: Insider2

I disagree. Although the coin is a Type 1/Type 1, the date is 1873. There is a BOLD clue in the reverse legend. See if you can find it...

It's most definitely an 1874, sorry.

Insider2

[Quote]It's most definitely an 1874, sorry. [Quote]



Did you look for the clue?



I'll post the diagnostic for this 1873-CC reverse die this evening; however, it is better for you all to research it first. Easiest to see in the blow-up of the mintmark area.

Look up 1873-CC Trade dollar on Google. PCGS has nice photos of the reverse.

cupronik

Now I understand your avatar!

USMarine6

Looks like a 74 cc to me

kaz

Looks like a "4" to me too

MilkmanDan

It's a 74. Could have shared a reverse die with a 73, but that's definitely not a 73 obverse.



Edit to add, there are probably 1000x more chopped 74-cc than 73-cc, so statistically more likely to be a 74 as well.

stealer

I'm an expert.

Edit: ok but really, it's a 74 going off the look of the coin. No need for fancy die characteristics.

Insider2

I'm very impressed by the knowledgeable opinions shown by all the Trade Dollar "Ex"-"Perts" (old numismatic authenticator lingo) here.



BTW, the wheel chair signifies that I have been a professional numismatist for a very long time. For that reason (old age), I have learned to research my opinions before posting; and I am very disappointed that none of you bothered to do the same.



The diagnostic for this 1873-CC reverse is the "tool mark" thru the top center of the "D" of "Dollar." There is a notch in the left stand of the "D" where the mark ends, and a horizontal "spike" at the right top of the "D."



This die was not used in 1874. If any of you had looked on the Internet as I suggested, I would not need to be writing this!

stealer

I'm an expert.

That tool mark is a hit.

Insider2

Originally posted by: stealer

I'm an expert.



That tool mark is a hit.

I cannot believe that anyone would be so "full" of themselves that they would post that they are an "Ex-Pert." This is hilarious. Keep digging that hole...



I'll bet that you are the Ex-Pert doing all the research on Trade dollars in the Gobrecht Journal. Glad to finally meet you!



PS Tool marks on coins are raised. Hits are not.

Insider2

Originally posted by: Outhaul

Thanks, I thought that looked like the top of a seven. Now, if I could just make out the last digit.

Hey Outhaul,



My coins are in the bank. What's the chance you can take a micrograph of the "D" in dollar on your chopped 1873-CC?

Outhaul

Will do.

COINS MAKE CENTS

1874

Outhaul

This is the best I can do with my cheapo camera.

TennesseeDave

I agree that its a 74-CC

lkeigwin

Sure looks like 1874 to me.

Lance.

valente151

Originally posted by: Insider2

Originally posted by: stealer
I'm an expert.

That tool mark is a hit.

I cannot believe that anyone would be so "full" of themselves that they would post that they are an "Ex-Pert." This is hilarious. Keep digging that hole...

I'll bet that you are the Ex-Pert doing all the research on Trade dollars in the Gobrecht Journal. Glad to finally meet you!

PS Tool marks on coins are raised. Hits are not.

Stealer is overcompensating. Not his fault, its in his blood. If he keeps digging he'll be home soon.

stealer

Originally posted by: valente151

Originally posted by: Insider2

Originally posted by: stealer
I'm an expert.

That tool mark is a hit.

I cannot believe that anyone would be so "full" of themselves that they would post that they are an "Ex-Pert." This is hilarious. Keep digging that hole...

I'll bet that you are the Ex-Pert doing all the research on Trade dollars in the Gobrecht Journal. Glad to finally meet you!

PS Tool marks on coins are raised. Hits are not.

Stealer is overcompensating. Not his fault, its in his blood. If he keeps digging he'll be home soon.

It's the steroids, I can't help it. It gets the ladies, but disappoints 'em in bed.

Outhaul

Lance,

That is spectacular and indisputable! For certain it's an 1874-CC.

Cheers

Bob

yosclimber

I enlarged and sharpened the date area and the D of DOLLAR, in case it helps:

Looks to me like sections of a 4 are visible in the last numeral position.
Lance's animated GIF shows this even better.


I see what could be described as a notch in the upper right part of the D.
The notch could be a contact mark.
I don't see a definite raised area within the D.

However, Outhaul's improved photo above does show this diagonal raised line fairly clearly.
Perhaps the reverse was used in both years.

lkeigwin

I am NOT an expert at T$'s...



Is it not possible a '73 reverse was paired with a '74 obverse?

Lance.



photo of the tool mark on a '73:

3keepSECRETif2rDEAD

Originally posted by: Outhaul
Lance,

That is spectacular and indisputable! For certain it's an 1874-CC.

Cheers

Bob

Seriously bro...that was way sick how he did that!

MilkmanDan

Yes, reverse dies were absolutely shared between 73 and 74 cc.

stealer

I'm an expert.

Outhaul

Well, this has certainly been an educational experience for me. While this is not my series of collecting, I am becoming increasingly interested in it. Many thanks to all.

Cheers

Bob

Insider2

Originally posted by: Outhaul

This is the best I can do with my cheapo camera.

EXCELLENT! You do good work.

Insider2

Originally posted by: stealer

I'm an expert.

You sure are! I stand corrected.



My apologies to all. Anyone who took the time to look at the OP should have seen the

base of the "4". ME INCLUDED.

halfhunter

So this is an 1874-CC Reverse of 1873?



HH

MilkmanDan

Originally posted by: halfhunter

So this is an 1874-CC Reverse of 1873?



HH

Not really, that would imply the style changed between the two years. Instead it's a reverse die the was possibly used for multiple years. Not uncommon for the series.

MrEureka

Originally posted by: Insider2
I'm very impressed by the knowledgeable opinions shown by all the Trade Dollar "Ex"-"Perts" (old numismatic authenticator lingo) here.

BTW, the wheel chair signifies that I have been a professional numismatist for a very long time. For that reason (old age), I have learned to research my opinions before posting; and I am very disappointed that none of you bothered to do the same.

The diagnostic for this 1873-CC reverse is the "tool mark" thru the top center of the "D" of "Dollar." There is a notch in the left stand of the "D" where the mark ends, and a horizontal "spike" at the right top of the "D."

This die was not used in 1874. If any of you had looked on the Internet as I suggested, I would not need to be writing this!

If true that the reverse die was not used in 1874, then we should consider the possibility that the coin was not struck in Carson City.

DeepCoin

I am a complete novice with regard to Trade Dollars, but looking at the blown up pictures of the 1873 CC versus the 1874 CC on Coin Facts, using the blown up feature, it certainly appears that the D is one from the 1873 CC Trade Dollar. I am looking forward to more comments from the knowledgeable regarding this.

Insider2

Originally posted by: MrEureka

If true that the reverse die was not used in 1874, then we should consider the possibility that the coin was not struck in Carson City.

Hey Andy, and Stealer



The plot thickens...



I have no records of this reverse die EVER being used on a coin dated 1874. As soon as I saw the "D" I ASSUMED the coin was an 1873-CC and confirmed that before posting.

However, any fool (me) who took the trouble to look at the obverse micrograph (as everyone else did) could have seen the "4."



This reverse die HAS BEEN RECORDED on 1873-CC T$ sent out by at least two TPGS's as "Questionable Authenticity" or "No Decision." Additionally, This reverse was unknown to me until the late 80's. Which means nothing as plenty have been certified genuine since then.



This coin looks perfectly genuine in the photos. Now, in hope of furthering my education:



1. Does anyone have an 1874-CC coin with this reverse in a slab?



2. If this coin is genuine, it has to be a very, very rare die marriage. I have no record of any die breaks on this reverse die when used on coins dated 1873. I see no die breaks on the 1874 chopped coin reverse either.



3. I have not been able to find this reverse on a coin dated 1874-CC on the Internet.



Any opinions?

Outhaul

I have done considerable reading and have made many comparisons in this short period of time. The coin does indeed appear to be genuine, purchased from a reputable dealer.

When I began this thread, I had no idea the Pandora's box I was opening. This is very exciting.

Cheers

Bob

lkeigwin

The reverse of OP's coin matches exactly the '73-cc reverse that shares the same tooling in the D of DOLLAR (cert# 25326793). I did overlays and there's no question. So I don't see any reason to consider that OP's coin was not struck in Carson City.



It seems clear that this 73-CC reverse was married to a 74-CC obverse at some point. I too have not found another example of it so perhaps it is rare. I don't know much about T$ die marriages, though.



I wonder if our host would slab this as a genuine 1874? With the help of this thread, perhaps.

Lance.

jayPem

Great Coin !

And shaping up to be a great thread if this keeps up ! Been awhile since Stealer and O-Dan have been called to the mat

Did the Real One get banned BTW ? This thread would really rock if he and Crypto could participate !!!

MilkmanDan

Originally posted by: Insider2

This reverse die HAS BEEN RECORDED on 1873-CC T$ sent out by at least two TPGS's as "Questionable Authenticity" or "No Decision." Additionally, This reverse was unknown to me until the late 80's. Which means nothing as plenty have been certified genuine since then.

Recorded where? I'd be surprised if this was true, although the TPG tend to play it safe and sometimes get it wrong.



Can you provide more details?

stealer

Originally posted by: jayPem
Great Coin !
And shaping up to be a great thread if this keeps up ! Been awhile since Stealer and O-Dan have been called to the mat
Did the Real One get banned BTW ? This thread would really rock if he and Crypto could participate !!!

No, I'm too old to participate in these fights anymore. I've been relegated to the old people's home to do standup.

BTW insider, I was just busting your balls yesterday, I learned something - I didn't know that there was such a reverse diagnostic. I don't know anything about whether or not it was used in 74.

Unknown

This content has been removed.

Zot

I'm just a random guy who doesn't know anything about trade dollars, but I found an 1874-CC that looks like it has the same diagnostic on the D on the reverse.

It also has a bunch of cracks on the reverse, so perhaps this would be towards the end of life of the reverse die?

it's in Goldberg auction 62, lot 1550. Graded PCGS genuine.

link

Pics from auction site

MilkmanDan

Thanks Zot, that didn't take long. As I've stated above, these dies were shared between years, especially near the beginning of the series.



Still waiting on more details on those supposed fakes Insider2.

Unknown

This content has been removed.

stealer

Yuck, they really didn't make good use of that die pair. Between the two examples, it's pretty clear that they were poorly made.