Trying to Understand 1878 Philadelphia Morgans

TigersFan2

I'm working towards building the "Morgan Dollars Basic Set, Circulation Strikes (1878-1921)" registry set which contains 97 coins including the following three 1878 Morgans from Philadelphia:

1878 8TF

1878 7TF

1878 7/8TF

I already have an "1878 7TF with 1879 Reverse." I just purchased an "1878 7TF with 1878 Reverse."

So if I'm understanding correctly, the "1878 7TF" spot in this registry set can be filled by either the 1878 Reverse or the 1879 Reverse. This means I bought another nice Morgan that doesn't improve the building of this registry set.

I know that the 1878 Morgan reverse design got continually updated and fixed throughout 1878 thus there are many variations.

My question is this... For this registry set, why does it distinguish between 8TF, 7TF and 7/8TF but not break the 7TF into 1878 Reverse and 1879 Reverse? Or is this just considered a variation of the 7TF type?

Fun, Fun, Fun...

TigersFan2

P.S. In your opinion, should the "Morgan Dollars Basic Set, Circulation Strikes (1878-1921)" registry set include the distinction between the 1878 Reverse and the 1879 Reverse? to make it 98 coins instead of 97 coins?

SoCalBigMark

I don't have an answer but what is your game plan for the whole series, MS65 except for the keys? Morgans are really down price wise and the TPG's have tightened up lately. My mantra is except for the keys MORGAN DOLLARS ARE NOT RARE.

AMRC

You may want to switch to one of the Registry Sets that include varieties. The nature of determining what should be in a particular set is not always as straight-forward as one would think. There is always a bit of subjectivity. In this case, the R79 or 78 was not thought to be of enough significance to include it.

TigersFan2

Originally posted by: SoCalBigMark
I don't have an answer but what is your game plan for the whole series, MS65 except for the keys? Morgans are really down price wise and the TPG's have tightened up lately. My mantra is except for the keys MORGAN DOLLARS ARE NOT RARE.

What's a MS65? Seriously, my best coin in my set (77 out of 97 so far) is an MS64+. I'm balancing getting the best coin available and being economical about it. I've got coins ranging from G4 to MS64+. It's fun to build.

TigersFan2

Originally posted by: AMRC
You may want to switch to one of the Registry Sets that include varieties. The nature of determining what should be in a particular set is not always as straight-forward as one would think. There is always a bit of subjectivity. In this case, the R79 or 78 was not thought to be of enough significance to include it.

I don't really want to expand my Morgan collecting to chasing all the many VAMs as I'd be putting too much focus/money on Morgans when there are other coins that interest me.

On a similar thing, I believe the 1939 Jefferson Nickels were minted with both a 1939 Reverse and a 1940 Reverse, but the main Jefferson Nickels registry sets don't make a distinction.

david3142

There is also the weak 7/8 tailfeather variety in addition to the strong one. NGC's registry has the four coins you mentioned. I consider all 4 to be important enough to include. If you want a complete registry set you kind of have to play by the rules of whichever grading service you choose, but otherwise you are of course free to decide what is important to you and what is not. For me, there are other "major" varieties which are of less interest to me, partially because they are much more expensive, such as the 1887/6-O. Morgans are an interesting series to collect because you almost have to mix grade levels and there are many additional characteristics (such as toned or PL/DMPL which are far more prevalent in Morgans than other series).

TigersFan2

I just sent an email to the PCGS Registry Set email asking why they don't distinguish between the two reverses for their main Morgan Dollar Set. I'll let you know what their response is if they respond. I expect they just need to draw the line somewhere will be the response.

DennisH

In my opinion you need four major 1878-P Morgan types:



-- 7TF R78

-- 7TF R79

-- 8TF

-- 7/8TF

SoCalBigMark

Originally posted by: TigersFan2

Originally posted by: SoCalBigMark
I don't have an answer but what is your game plan for the whole series, MS65 except for the keys? Morgans are really down price wise and the TPG's have tightened up lately. My mantra is except for the keys MORGAN DOLLARS ARE NOT RARE.

What's a MS65? Seriously, my best coin in my set (77 out of 97 so far) is an MS64+. I'm balancing getting the best coin available and being economical about it. I've got coins ranging from G4 to MS64+. It's fun to build.

Thats awesome, have a pic of your 1881 S handy?

TigersFan2

Originally posted by: SoCalBigMark

Thats awesome, have a pic of your 1881 S handy?

My Morgan Registry Set

messydesk

Originally posted by: TigersFan2

I'm working towards building the "Morgan Dollars Basic Set, Circulation Strikes (1878-1921)" registry set which contains 97 coins including the following three 1878 Morgans from Philadelphia:



1878 8TF

1878 7TF

1878 7/8TF

...

My question is this... For this registry set, why does it distinguish between 8TF, 7TF and 7/8TF but not break the 7TF into 1878 Reverse and 1879 Reverse? Or is this just considered a variation of the 7TF type?



Fun, Fun, Fun...

Seems like a weird omission to me. In my opinion, the Rev. of 79 is more significant than the 7/8 variety when looking at what should be in a basic set. It represents a major change in the hub design, while the 7/8 varieties are combinations of hubs already mentioned, some of which don't even show any extra tail feathers. I suppose one argument for leaving is out could have been the desire to not include both reverses for 79-S and 80-CC.

TigersFan2

I received an email response from PCGS.

The experts determined, when the set was created, that the basic set would allow for either/or for the 1878 7TF spot. Upon receiving your email, I checked again, and the answer was the same. There will be no changes to the basic set composition at this time.

LanceNewmanOCC

.

also, where does one draw the line between the variations. which are significant, which aren't.



it would be neat to see the 7/0, 7/3, 7/5, short/long nock, rev 78/79 etc. slots.



unless a set specifies varieties, most aren't included (it even specifies "Morgan Dollars Basic Set") and sometimes a few coin varieties fills the spot. so sometimes, one can take the cheap way out.



BUT



one can do self-variances with the notes and images or simply host a personal custom set.



i would be shocked if there werent 1878 variety sets that are custom made. ive seen many diff custom sets and a group of people could make their own slots and private competition.



or you could do a vam registry set.



i'd come up with more but i'm not personally into registry but enjoy viewing them greatly.



i didnt read the whole thread.

.

TigersFan2

Originally posted by: LanceNewmanOCC
.
also, where does one draw the line between the variations. which are significant, which aren't.

it would be neat to see the 7/0, 7/3, 7/5, short/long nock, rev 78/79 etc. slots.

unless a set specifies varieties, most aren't included (it even specifies "Morgan Dollars Basic Set") and sometimes a few coin varieties fills the spot. so sometimes, one can take the cheap way out.

BUT

one can do self-variances with the notes and images or simply host a personal custom set.

i would be shocked if there werent 1878 variety sets that are custom made. ive seen many diff custom sets and a group of people could make their own slots and private competition.

or you could do a vam registry set.

i'd come up with more but i'm not personally into registry but enjoy viewing them greatly.

i didnt read the whole thread.
.

In thinking about it more, the 1878 Philadelphia coin is the only date/mintmark with varieties in the "Morgan Dollars Basic Set." It seems more logical since it's a basic set that is should just have 1 hole for the 1878 Philadelphia coin regardless of variety. Once the 8TF, 7TF and 7/8TF varieties are included in this basic set, then Pandora's box is opened for including other varieties.

As far as other BASIC registry sets that include varieties, the Standing Liberty ones do include the arrows, no arrows, rays, no rays distinctions. But I can't think of any others off the top of my head.

LanceNewmanOCC

Originally posted by: TigersFan2

then Pandora's box is opened for

i presume that is the logic.



coxe did wonders with the vam registry. (im sure there are worthy mentions for assisting)



no holds barred! - you should see the sets. it is great.



legitimate sets are considered and many have been added based on community consensus.

.

messydesk

Originally posted by TigersFan2

I received an email response from PCGS.



The experts determined, when the set was created, that the basic set would allow for either/or for the 1878 7TF spot. Upon receiving your email, I checked again, and the answer was the same. There will be no changes to the basic set composition at this time.

Their sandbox, their rules, I guess.

david3142

How many of your Morgan dollars were bought raw vs. already holdered? Looking over your set, my advice would be to slow down. Obviously, cost is going to be a major consideration, but I think if you have the budget to even contemplate a complete set of Morgans, you have the budget to allow a super-nice example of an 80-S or 81-S. I have been collecting Morgans for almost 14 years and I only have about 65 of the coins. I don't even have some really common ones, like an 1896 because the more are out there, the pickier I can be.

TigersFan2

I've posted a poll in the "PCGS Set Registry Forum."

BillJones

Originally posted by: DennisH
In my opinion you need four major 1878-P Morgan types:

-- 7TF R78
-- 7TF R79
-- 8TF
-- 7/8TF

I think this sums it up for the 1878 dollar varieties unless you are going to become a big Morgan dollar variety collector. There are many varieties of the 1878 7 over 8 tailfeather coins including the "weak" variations. You could add a "weak" example for nominal cost because those pieces are not very popular.

TigersFan2

Please vote in the Poll on this subject. I put it in the other group which has less traffic than this one.

Link to Poll

david3142

This was actually a tough question for me. The Greysheet lists four, but my Morgan Dansco only has one. If any of the four deserve to left out it's probably the 7/8TF. the reverse change is quite obvious but not as much as the 1866 mickel, 1883 nickel, or 1909 cent -changes - all of which should count separately in my opinion. I ended up voting for the four major 1878 varieties, but I am probably influenced by already having all four of them in my registry set (ATS). I wish that set did not include the 79-S Rev78 even though it's the same distinction (it's just a much more expensive coin). Ditto having to buy two 1880-CCs.