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Thoughts on this 1858-S Quarter PCGS XF45?

jclovescoinsjclovescoins Posts: 1,850 ✭✭✭✭✭
Thoughts on this 1858-S Quarter PCGS XF45? What's a fair price?
TrueView cert # 33329991

Update: I bought the coin raw in Tampa from a dealer and I sent it to PCGS myself. It has not been messed with. In looking at the Heritage records, it is the same coin from December 2015 but also the same coin that sold on Heritage many years prior in the same ANACS holder (2/07). You can see how it nicely retoned from 2/07 to present. The Heritage images were a little harsh and the PCGS images were a little friendly. In any event, XF45 I feel is a fair grade. I do not think the post on the website was fair or justified. It's a coin with strong AU details that has hairlines and has nicely been retoning. Much better piece than a lot of the ugly XF that have sold.

Comments

  • TopographicOceansTopographicOceans Posts: 6,535 ✭✭✭✭
    There were two sold on HA a long time ago.
    2005 for $4100 and 2010 for $5175 with BP.
    Probably around $3500 - $4000 today?
  • RampageRampage Posts: 9,416 ✭✭✭✭
    Looks nice.
  • RampageRampage Posts: 9,416 ✭✭✭✭
    Not my series, so cannot guess a fair price.
  • LucanusLucanus Posts: 424 ✭✭✭
    Under-graded, possibly net graded. Secondary toning.


    Doug
  • rheddenrhedden Posts: 6,567 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I wouldn't assume prices have dropped on nice circulated Seated quarters since the 2007-8 market peak. I believe they have kept on increasing, as I surely have not seen many bargains lately in the circulated grades. 1858-S is available in AG-F, but an 1858-S with AU details is a really tough coin. I agree with previous posters that this coin was lightly cleaned at some point and retoned. Be sure to read the discussion thread and article about the 1858-S quarter started by Greg Reynolds in December, if you haven't seen it.

    link to thread
  • BoosibriBoosibri Posts: 11,839 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Secondary surfaces
  • AnalystAnalyst Posts: 1,438 ✭✭✭

    RonHedden: Be sure to read the discussion thread and article about the 1858-S quarter started by Greg Reynolds in December, if you haven't seen it.



    Thanks, Ron, I very much appreciate the thought and stated reference, though I am not sure that your link works.



    Hopefully, this will link to the thread that I started on 1858-S quarters



    As for the specific quarter cited in the top post, I repeat my opinion that it is not a good idea to grade coins from images. There is really a need to inspect coins in actuality.



    How will Coin Collectors Interpret Certified Coin Grades in the Future?





    "In order to understand the scarce coins that you own or see, you must learn about coins that you cannot afford." -Me
  • roadrunnerroadrunner Posts: 28,303 ✭✭✭✭✭
    cert look up



    That's overall a pretty wholesome XF45 with some luster even if it's secondary toning. Looks like the right obv field could have some scuffing or wiping that might be a distraction.



    Try finding this date in XF/AU with luster and original surfaces. It'd actually give it AU50 details, it's certainly sharper than XF45, esp. the reverse. A little more luster and it might have gone AU50. I think the prices have come down a bit on this date in XF the past couple of years. I would think $3K would be low and $4K might be strong. Don't confuse this date with the 59-s, 60-s, or 61-s which are much tougher in XF. I consider the 58-s to be between those dates and the 56-s/57-s/62-s. While the 58-s is challenging in strong VF or better, I don't think it's as rare as a lot of people think. I would suggest that an 1858-0 in MS61 or higher is probably tougher than a 58-s in XF45 or higher. And both are in a similar price range of $2K-$4K. The 58-s seems to evoke more emotion than a "lowly" 58-0 with a 4.3X higher mintage.



    Fwiw I sold a raw, attractive XF45 details 58-s that body bagged because the surfaces were a tad too hard and bright with secondary toning well underway. I really thought that coin was a 45 with luster that should have graded at 40. The coin wasn't problem free, but it wasn't harshly cleaned either. Someone else will probably get than in an XF40 holder and a $3K price tag. I sold that coin raw for $2K to a dealer exactly two years ago at FUN (probably VF25/30 money). I originally found it raw at a local show in 2011 graded AU and priced just under CDN at $1050. That's my kind of price guide! It wasn't as nice or sharp as this slabbed XF45. Spending $3K to $4K for an XF 58-s is still a nice chunk of change. And you can find them out there.
    Barbarous Relic No More, LSCC -GoldSeek--shadow stats--SafeHaven--321gold
  • ebaybuyerebaybuyer Posts: 2,984 ✭✭✭
    one thing to consider is the fact that the vast majority of pre-1873 S mint seated quarters have problems. finding a decent piece is a lot more difficult than most people realize, especially in the higher circulated grades.
    regardless of how many posts I have, I don't consider myself an "expert" at anything
  • Cougar1978Cougar1978 Posts: 7,541 ✭✭✭✭✭
    It has a market value of $4500 (Coin Facts). Considering this issue has a strong auction history ($5175 auc last in 2010) I believe you will have a tough time finding one even at $4500. At a show, if I had that coin, would price at $5295 at the very least and most likely have only one in the room as this is a very low pop coin with just a handful better. A potential buyer would have to decide if he was going to buy it at my price and take it home or keep on trying to find one. I am skeptical you could find one less than $5000.
    So Cali Area - Coins & Currency
  • LucanusLucanus Posts: 424 ✭✭✭
    Good eye Realone, the same coin. At least the coin wasn't doctored to get it into a problem free holder.









    Doug
  • fastfreddiefastfreddie Posts: 2,721 ✭✭✭✭✭


    Read all about this coin here:

    Gerry Fortin daily blog

    It is not that life is short, but that you are dead for so very long.
  • ebaybuyerebaybuyer Posts: 2,984 ✭✭✭
    i don't know if it is fair to condemn cracking a cleaned coin out and resubbing, i cant say how many times ive submitted a coin to come back three times no grade then grade out on the fourth, grading is not yet a science, its merely an opinion. will we see the day when it becomes a science ? i doubt it as that will be the end of re-grading
    regardless of how many posts I have, I don't consider myself an "expert" at anything
  • rheddenrhedden Posts: 6,567 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Wow, eye-opning discussion! We all knew it doesn't have original toning, but I would not have guessed it was a coin that ANACS would have called "cleaned" back in the "old white holder" days. You can see some hairlines in the pics Gerry posted. Still, whoever bought it for $1,145 in the ANACS holder got a very decent deal.
  • fastfreddiefastfreddie Posts: 2,721 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Originally posted by: ebaybuyer

    i don't know if it is fair to condemn cracking a cleaned coin out and resubbing...




    Agreed, but was it just cracked and resubmitted or was it enhanced?



    It is not that life is short, but that you are dead for so very long.
  • MoldnutMoldnut Posts: 3,082 ✭✭✭✭
    Gerry pretty much called it out as being a dog. I wouldn't want to be the one holding the hot potato at north of 4k.
    Derek

    EAC 6024
  • jclovescoinsjclovescoins Posts: 1,850 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I bought the coin raw in Tampa from a dealer and I sent it to PCGS myself. It has not been messed with. In looking at the Heritage records, it is the same coin from December 2015 but also the same coin that sold on Heritage many years prior in the same ANACS holder (2/07). You can see how it nicely retoned from 2/07 to present. The Heritage images were a little harsh and the PCGS images were a little friendly. In any event, XF45 I feel is a fair grade. I do not think the post on the website was fair or justified. It's a coin with strong AU details that has hairlines and has nicely been retoning. Much better piece than a lot of the ugly XF that have sold.
  • SonorandesertratSonorandesertrat Posts: 5,695 ✭✭✭✭✭
    "In any event, XF45 I feel is a fair grade." Why? Clearly, the graders silently net graded the coin. However, I think that the real issue is that, based on what we understand PCGS grading standards to be, the coin should not have been given a straight grade.
    Member: EAC, NBS, C4, CWTS, ANA

    RMR: 'Wer, wenn ich schriee, hörte mich denn aus der Engel Ordnungen?'

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  • joebb21joebb21 Posts: 4,732 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Originally posted by: jclovescoins
    I bought the coin raw in Tampa from a dealer and I sent it to PCGS myself. It has not been messed with. In looking at the Heritage records, it is the same coin from December 2015 but also the same coin that sold on Heritage many years prior in the same ANACS holder (2/07). You can see how it nicely retoned from 2/07 to present. The Heritage images were a little harsh and the PCGS images were a little friendly. In any event, XF45 I feel is a fair grade. I do not think the post on the website was fair or justified. It's a coin with strong AU details that has hairlines and has nicely been retoning. Much better piece than a lot of the ugly XF that have sold.


    I agree with you and based solely on images disagree with Gerry.

    The coin sat in the same holder for 7-8 years and you can clearly see the coin has retoned in the holder after sitting for so many years.

    There are thousands of coins that have been cleaned in the past but have developed secondary toning and since have been graded.

    A sharp crack out dealer recognized that this coin now has become market acceptable and resubmit it and got it straight graded.

    I see no wrong on anyone's part and I would have no problem buying that coin.

    may the fonz be with you...always...
  • roadrunnerroadrunner Posts: 28,303 ✭✭✭✭✭
    That coin was a rip at $1150, nearly the same price I paid for my XF45 back in 2011 at $1050. If mine had the benefits of another 10 years to tone over it probably could have straight graded too. Down the road I'd expect that to be in an XF holder and a price tag in the $3K-$3.5K range. But in no way do I think either of these 2 coins is worth $5K. I'd expect a totally problem free and eye popping, high end XF45 coin with plenty of luster for my $5K. Money is a lot scarcer today and no one is plopping down $5K because the price guide says so. For 99% of the shows out there an XF45 1858-s will be the only one on the room (damaged or not)....doesn't mean it sells for $5K.



    Heritage archives



    There are plenty of VF35-AU58 specimens selling in the past several years. Some of those XF45-AU55 specimens are in genuine holders, but they aren't trash either. There are 2 XF details coins sold in the past year at $645-$765. A PCGS VF35 CAC at $1645 and another w/o CAC at $1295 give an idea of what these have been bringing in 2015. An XF45 with issues, even if not in a details holder shouldn't be worth more than around 2X a stickered VF35.



    I note a PCGS AU53 at $4112 in 2014. Who says XF45's bring $5K now in a weaker market? And noteworthy is that the same PCGS AU 58 specimen brought $11,162 on 3/21/14 and then $7,050 on 11/6/2014. That's a big drop in only 8 months for a coin bordering on condition census. No way would I pay $5K for a 45 when a 58 brought $7K. The ex-Eliasberg/Gardner NGC AU58 recently sold for $8812....not a really strong price if that's the best AU58 in a holder. I would figure an AU58 at a min of 2X the price of an XF45 because the coin becomes quite elusive in 58+ to 62. Review the Heritage archive link and make your own opinion. My thoughts are that typical circ specimens seems to be worth 60-80% of PCGS price guide, with 70-75% being about the norm. If you want price guide it should be an exceptional problem-free, totally original, and high end piece.



    NGC XF details with lite scratches at $880



    Not that bad a coin. I don't see this much different than a coin that was lightly cleaned. There are plenty of specimens in the range of VF25-AU58 to take care of all the set builders that want one. Any pieces "graded" MS61/62 can satisfy the one or two guys who have to have a top UNC registry set. In the past 4 years I found my XF45 for $1050 and JCLovescoins found his for $1150. You might be able to as well.
    Barbarous Relic No More, LSCC -GoldSeek--shadow stats--SafeHaven--321gold
  • joebb21joebb21 Posts: 4,732 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Value wise I think its worth around $3,000-3500.



    Nowhere near 5k
    may the fonz be with you...always...
  • ebaybuyerebaybuyer Posts: 2,984 ✭✭✭
    i agree that it is much better than most of higher end 1858-S quarters. funny how this one being cleaned offends people yet the truly ugly "conserved" coins are accepted as original coins, its what ya like i guess.
    regardless of how many posts I have, I don't consider myself an "expert" at anything
  • roadrunnerroadrunner Posts: 28,303 ✭✭✭✭✭
    the op who is a dealer buys said coin raw from a dealer in an arms length transaction. he had to do his research prior to making the purchase...




    The only research needed was checking a CDN. A 5 min review of the Heritage archives would have sealed it. The coin should have been confidently purchased at $1150. I'd have paid that if it were raw....the ANACS slab was a plus. If semi-cleaned and slabbed VF 20's to 30's can fetch $1,000+. This one represented a good opportunity with minimal downside.



    Barbarous Relic No More, LSCC -GoldSeek--shadow stats--SafeHaven--321gold

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