HK-402: Panama-Pacific Alabama So-Called Dollar restrike with original dies

Zoins

HK-402, the Panama-Pacific Expo Alabama State Fund SCD, was restruck during the 1960s using the original Whitehead & Hoag dies. More information and photos are available here:

- http://so-calleddollar.com/Forum/messages.aspx?TopicID=1356
- http://so-calleddollar.com/Forum/messages.aspx?TopicID=161

It seems like the primary diagnostics are that the restrikes have cleaner fields and the lack of a die chip from the photos below.

Some questions:

1) Do we know who restruck these?

2) Do we know how many were restruck?

3) Do we know where the original dies are now?

Here are the main comparison photos from Bill Hyder @Bsktmkr:

ricko

They certainly cleaned up the dies a bit.... Nice SCD's....Cheers, RickO

SCDHunter

I missed this first time around. Thanks for pointing it out to me CommemDude.

Zoins

I wonder how many of these restrikes exist. It would be easier to track if the restrike gets its own HK number, something like HK-402b.

Timbuk3

Cool !!!

Broadstruck

I wonder how many have or will end up in plastic mistaken for originals?

Zoins

I bet a lot of them have been cataloged as HK-402, which is why a designation for the restrike would be nice, perhaps HK-402b? I'm still curious who struck these in the 1960s and if anyone knows where the dies are now.

Here's a restrike on the bay now - that looks circulated enough to be mistaken for an original.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/USA-Alabama-Panama-Pacific-Exposition-San-Francisco-Bronze-Medal-1915-XF-HK-402/362064784788

Zoins

Another interesting question on these is how easy is it to update dies? Bill mentions that the eagle's breast feathers are different.

Here's Bill's text from the thread I linked to earlier:

Bill Hyder wrote (http://so-calleddollar.com/Forum/messages.aspx?TopicID=1356):
It has been known for quite some time that the 1915 PPIE Alabama state fund dollar was restruck in the 1960s using original dies. At the time it was noted, it was believed collectors could tell the difference because the color and patina looked modern compared to the 1915 issue. That does not really hold anymore and many pieces offered today are restrikes as opposed to originals. Jeff and I were working on the PPIE entries for a new catalog this past weekend and we discovered some die characteristics that allow one to easily distinguish between an original and a restrike.

It appears the dies were cleaned and polished before reuse. The breast feathers on the eagle on the obverse are different between the two strikes, but that is a subtle difference. On the reverse, the scroll work near the bottom of the medal is a hard and fast trait to distinguish the two. On the original die, there are die polish lines, small nicks and gouges, and a heavy extra line at the right edge of the scroll work. When the die was polished, these minor details and the line line or gouge at the right were eliminated. This marker is an easy way to distinguish original strikes from restrikes.

SCDHunter

I purchased my copy through the Bill Weber auction almost 10 years ago. It is labeled HK-402, but I've confirmed that it is a restrike.

I did a cursory look at what is available now on the internet. Every one that I found appears to be a restrike.

Broadstruck

HK-402R would make more sense.

Zoins

@Broadstruck said:
HK-402R would make more sense.

That would work too. Is "R" used for any other restrikes now?

Broadstruck

HK-402R would make more sense. > @Zoins said:

@Broadstruck said:
HK-402R would make more sense.

That would work too. Is "R" used for any other restrikes now?

It's used on Hard Times Tokens and the R kinda lets folks know it's either a Re-strike or Replica.

As a HK-402B it would come across as another original variety.

Zoins

@Broadstruck said:

@Zoins said:

@Broadstruck said:
HK-402R would make more sense.

That would work too. Is "R" used for any other restrikes now?

It's used on Hard Times Tokens and the R kinda lets folks know it's either a Re-strike or Replica.

As a HK-402B it would come across as another original variety.

HK uses standard letters for So-Called Dollar restrikes today. This is especially evident in the Continental Dollar restrikes by Elder and Bashlow using the Dickeson dies. I can see how a "R" would be easier to understand and it would have helped me with these. Perhaps the Elder and Bashlow pieces could be recatalogued to use "R" in a HK 3rd edition too.

Of course, the Dickeson pieces themselves are replicas. It would be nice to distinguish the Dickeson replica and the Elder/Bashlow replica restrikes separately so it's clear that the Elder/Bashlow pieces are restrikes of the Dickeson replica.

Do Hard Times Tokens cataloging have a way of handling the Continental Dollar scenario?

Zoins

@SCDHunter said:
I purchased my copy through the Bill Weber auction almost 10 years ago. It is labeled HK-402, but I've confirmed that it is a restrike.

I did a cursory look at what is available now on the internet. Every one that I found appears to be a restrike.

Very interesting. I wonder how rare the originals actually are now.

SCDHunter

@Zoins said:

@SCDHunter said:
I purchased my copy through the Bill Weber auction almost 10 years ago. It is labeled HK-402, but I've confirmed that it is a restrike.

I did a cursory look at what is available now on the internet. Every one that I found appears to be a restrike.

Very interesting. I wonder how rare the originals actually are now.

The original HK 1963 publication listed HK-402 as "Very Rare" 21-50 known. The 2008 update lists it as R5 76-200 known.

Zoins

@SCDHunter said:

@Zoins said:

@SCDHunter said:
I purchased my copy through the Bill Weber auction almost 10 years ago. It is labeled HK-402, but I've confirmed that it is a restrike.

I did a cursory look at what is available now on the internet. Every one that I found appears to be a restrike.

Very interesting. I wonder how rare the originals actually are now.

The original HK 1963 publication listed HK-402 as "Very Rare" 21-50 known. The 2008 update lists it as R5 76-200 known.

I wonder how many in both estimates are restrikes? Jeff and Bill knew about these restrikes going back to at least 2012.

RogerB

Original dies or new transfer dies with minor re-engraving?

Zoins

@RogerB said:
Original dies or new transfer dies with minor re-engraving?

It would be a good project to see if these were done by transfer dies or not.

Transfer dies seemed to be common in the 1960s as Bashlow did a number of them at the time. I'm not sure how common transfer dies are today. Would be interesting to get info from some modern minters.

Insider2

Are any of these "restrikes" certified?

Zoins

@Insider2 said:
Are any of these "restrikes" certified?

A number of them have been certified as originals.

In the following thread, rjesinger mentions he has an original and a restrike, both in ATS slabs with a 1 gram difference between them.

http://so-calleddollar.com/Forum/messages.aspx?TopicID=161

CaptHenway

@RogerB said:
Original dies or new transfer dies with minor re-engraving?

I was wondering that, or possibly a backup die not used at the time of the original striking but then used in the 60's. Look at the arcs at the ends of the scroll.

Insider2

Nice catch Tom! Not the same dies.

A word of warning - There are Counterfeit So-called dollars in the market. Not the OP's coin of course as these "restrikes" have been certified... So far, I've not seen any in silver or bronze.

Zoins

It would be great to have the original, transfer, or new die discussion with Bill Hyder and Jeff Shevlin ( @SoCalledGuy ), here or on so-calleddollar.com. They believe it is the original die. There are differences but they say it is due to die polish and re-engraving.

SCD.com thread: http://so-calleddollar.com/Forum/messages.aspx?TopicID=1356

RogerB

Please note that only certain changes can be made when engraving on a die. Metal can only be cut away. Thus, an altered die can have new details that will appear as raised on the medal. But, if there are new details on the medal that are incuse, then an intermediate hub must have been used, and that, in turn, implies a transfer hub and new working die.

SCDHunter

Here is my example from the Bill Weber collection:

Zoins

@SCDHunter said:
Here is my example from the Bill Weber collection:

Very nice specimen @SCDHunter!

Thanks for sharing it!

Zoins

Here's an original that I just ran across for reference.

Photos courtesy of Mr Coin Mrs Collectible (mrcoinmrscollectible)

dcarr

The re-strike is not from the original dies. You can polish old dies, but you can't move the date on them.
Note the position of the date in relation to the center of the scroll:

Zoins

@dcarr said:
The re-strike is not from the original dies. You can polish old dies, but you can't move the date on them.
Note the position of the date in relation to the center of the scroll:

Awesome find Dan! You're right! The dies are different!

These have been discussed as 1963 restrikes for a long time that I took the explanation at face value and didn't look closer. This has been repeated for almost 60 years since 1964 TAMS Journal Vol. 4, No. 2!

Not only is the center line positioning different, the positioning of the letters are different. It's very evident in the "RNATI" vs. "POSIT" letters highlighted below. In these letters, it's evident that "RNA" is almost directly over "POS" in the originals while "POS" is relatively shifted to the left under "RNA" in the 1963 release.

The next thing to revalidate would be the obverses!