What price range are non-CAC coins at major auctions bottom third for the grade?
FredF
Posts: 527 ✭✭✭
From the CAC website:
So while many people refer to CAC as "premium quality," their own FAQ says that high-end or "solid" coins for the grade get the sticker. If within a given grade it's evenly split between A, B, and C coins, then 1/3 of coins with a given grade do not get the sticker. If it's more of a bell curve, say that 25% of coins are A and C and 50% are B, then 1/4 of the coins with a given grade do not get the sticker. It could in theory be some other distribution, as there is no formal definition of A, B. or C.
CAC costs $12.50 per coin for up to 10k in value, and $25.00 per coin for over 10k in value. You could assume that a large auction house would negotiate a bulk discount, but for sake of argument, let's assume that they pay full retail.
There are coins that are so cheap that a coin with the sticker won't necessarily gain enough in bidding volume to justify the $12.50. There are also some coins that are at the top end where CAC is irrelevant - the people buying them are going to make their own determinations. There is a large middle. Given that the price of CAC coins is so much higher, the auction houses submit to CAC every coin they can. They may not submit coins they know will not sticker, but any coin that may sticker is worth the submission.
So - if you see a coin with an expected price in the $2000 range, for example, it is assured that it went to CAC. So if it doesn't have the sticker, the CAC folks believe it's in the bottom 1/3 (or bottom 1/4) of the grade, yes? It's clearly a "low-end" coin using their own definition (or flat-out overgraded).
Question - what price range do you think the lack of a sticker means that JA thinks it's a low-end coin? I figure any coin above about $500 would justify the cost. How expensive does it have to be before CAC doesn't matter? $20k? $50k? If you're looking to buy early gold, wouldn't it be worth it for the auction house to pay the $25 to get the sticker that says that JA doesn't see any putty or such on the coin?
I ask because I was looking at a bunch of coins that are all out of my price range in the next HA auction (I don't want to call any of them out specifically because others may be bidding on them and I don't want to call attention to them) and they looked perfectly nice in the photos but they weren't CAC'ed. So my assumption is that there may be something wrong that I cannot see, or that the coins are overgraded in JA's mind.
For many years, coin dealers and advanced collectors have used the letters A, B, and C among themselves to further describe coins. C indicates low-end for the grade, B indicates solid for the grade, and A indicates high-end. CAC will only award stickers to coins in the A or B category. C coins, although accurately graded, will be returned without a CAC sticker
So while many people refer to CAC as "premium quality," their own FAQ says that high-end or "solid" coins for the grade get the sticker. If within a given grade it's evenly split between A, B, and C coins, then 1/3 of coins with a given grade do not get the sticker. If it's more of a bell curve, say that 25% of coins are A and C and 50% are B, then 1/4 of the coins with a given grade do not get the sticker. It could in theory be some other distribution, as there is no formal definition of A, B. or C.
CAC costs $12.50 per coin for up to 10k in value, and $25.00 per coin for over 10k in value. You could assume that a large auction house would negotiate a bulk discount, but for sake of argument, let's assume that they pay full retail.
There are coins that are so cheap that a coin with the sticker won't necessarily gain enough in bidding volume to justify the $12.50. There are also some coins that are at the top end where CAC is irrelevant - the people buying them are going to make their own determinations. There is a large middle. Given that the price of CAC coins is so much higher, the auction houses submit to CAC every coin they can. They may not submit coins they know will not sticker, but any coin that may sticker is worth the submission.
So - if you see a coin with an expected price in the $2000 range, for example, it is assured that it went to CAC. So if it doesn't have the sticker, the CAC folks believe it's in the bottom 1/3 (or bottom 1/4) of the grade, yes? It's clearly a "low-end" coin using their own definition (or flat-out overgraded).
Question - what price range do you think the lack of a sticker means that JA thinks it's a low-end coin? I figure any coin above about $500 would justify the cost. How expensive does it have to be before CAC doesn't matter? $20k? $50k? If you're looking to buy early gold, wouldn't it be worth it for the auction house to pay the $25 to get the sticker that says that JA doesn't see any putty or such on the coin?
I ask because I was looking at a bunch of coins that are all out of my price range in the next HA auction (I don't want to call any of them out specifically because others may be bidding on them and I don't want to call attention to them) and they looked perfectly nice in the photos but they weren't CAC'ed. So my assumption is that there may be something wrong that I cannot see, or that the coins are overgraded in JA's mind.
Successful BST (me as buyer) with: Collectorcoins, PipestonePete, JasonRiffeRareCoins
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Personally I wouldn't buy anything from an auction photo. If you can't look at them in person have someone do it for you. This will actually save you money in the long run.
mark
Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
CAC has a particular look, or sets of looks, they prefer and there is subjectivity in their opinions. Keep in mind that they put a sticker on a coin they themselves would like to make a market on, so coins that may be PQ to other informed numismatists that have alot of experience in grading may not always agree.
Why do you believe that Heritage sends all the coins they auction to CAC? I don't believe that is the case.
Best, SH
I had a buyer who was interested in the coin, but wanted it CAC approved. I assumed the coin had been there at least once before because of it's 2 trips through HA and one through the firm I purchased it from, so I didn't think it had much of a shot. Even though I personally really liked the coin. (who am I right) Sure enough it came back with the bean.
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Why do you presume that CAC doesn't matter on a higher price coin?
I have seen 90k coins in pcgs plastic that were puttied.
I suspect they are still out there.
I give away money. I collect money.
I don’t love money . I do love the Lord God.
I agree that most major auction coins probably get sent to CAC, but not all of them because they may get the consignment late, the consignor may not ask, etc.
Whenever I see $1000-ish coins without a sticker I do wonder if there is something I'm missing, though. That's why I always ask a representative to view the coins in person!
Not everyone is an expert though. And while we could all say that a person who is wealthy enough to buy expensive coins and who doesn't have the experience to determine quality on his/her own could easily afford a representative, we also know that not everyone actually does this. So CAC is a value enhancer, similar to PCGS. All else being equal, if PCGS says a coin is grade X and genuine and not tampered with and you as a buyer agree, that's a safer purchase than you as a buyer seeing the same coin raw and coming to the same conclusion. As such, the auction houses seem to only sell slabbed coins these days, not raw coins. I would say that PCGS is a tremendous asset to the hobby, but a person simply interested in the highest hammer price might take the more practical view that PCGS coins command a high premium over raw coins. If I brought a ton of beautiful raw early 19th century coins to one of the major auction houses, they would have every last one of them slabbed before the auction, not because it's required but because it will increase the final price and more than pay for the grading fee. I think the argument about CAC is the same. It's a very low investment with potential for very high return.
If I were auctioning off coins that should sell for more than a few hundred bucks, I would want every single one of them sent to CAC because hey, why not.
Thus, while there may be exceptions, why is it irrational to assume that the non-CAC coins in the major auctions were not rejected by CAC? (I might make exceptions for the weekly auctions because I think the auction houses need to keep a flow of coins coming in, and sending off to CAC takes time which may disrupt the flow of good coins drawing people to those events... although an auction where the coins won't be viewed in hand by people may make an even stronger argument for CAC).
Successful BST (me as buyer) with: Collectorcoins, PipestonePete, JasonRiffeRareCoins
Regardless, I would suggest you assume all coins that run through major auctions have gone through CAC, if you value the CAC sticker and/or paradigm. I realize this is not true, but it can save one grief over time.
In honor of the memory of Cpl. Michael E. Thompson
Regardless, I would suggest you assume all coins that run through major auctions have gone through CAC, if you value the CAC sticker and/or paradigm. I realize this is not true, but it can save one grief over time.
That's exactly how I view it
mark
Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
If you know your series and you know it wasn't doctored, you can go with your gut.
True story: I bought a six figure coin because I loved it even though I knew it hadn't cac'd. I did know it wasn't rejected because it was doctored, rather because of a tiny hairline on the reverse. I felt the overall coin merited the grade and the price was appropriate. Two years later, upon a second look it did sticker
If you know your series and you know it wasn't doctored, you can go with your gut.
You saying it went thru 2 times, failed the first time And make the bean the second time?
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True story: I bought a six figure coin because I loved it even though I knew it hadn't cac'd. I did know it wasn't rejected because it was doctored, rather because of a tiny hairline on the reverse. I felt the overall coin merited the grade and the price was appropriate. Two years later, upon a second look it did sticker
If you know your series and you know it wasn't doctored, you can go with your gut.
You saying it went thru 2 times, failed the first time And make the bean the second time?
Why not? Just like PCGS and their Reconsideration Program people are allowed to change their minds. With JA it doesn't happen often but it does happen. That's a good thing. Having an open mind is good.
mark
Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
If CAC is the final word why do we use our host and depend on their opinion or rather why is it that their opinion no longer matters? It is an unfortunate situation now that all coins in auctions are viewed as rejects without that CAC sticker on them, I personally hate paying for a service I did not ask for.
You lost me. PCGS's opinion does matter but weeding out the C coins for for grade is a good thing. All 65's aren't equal and nor should their prices be. By weeding out the C coins it unlocks the value of the B and A coins. If a coin doesn't sticker it doesn't mean the grade is wrong. So if a coin is stickered all you can take away from it is that CAC thinks it's solid for the grade. Nothing more , nothing less. If it's not stickered then it's up to you to decide if it's solid for the grade or not and pay appropriately. As of today the market seems to value the CAC sticker. Of course we all have been through this debate a milliion times it seems.
Grading is subjective and it involves humans. Humans make mistakes. Humans change their minds. All you can do is educate and arm yourself with as much ammunition as possible. Tools for your tool belt. For me it's the combination of my eyes ,PCGS, CAC and some trusted dealers. This combination works best for me in building my collection. I leave room for an occasional exception as its a hobby after all.Others might take a different route. I'm ok with that.
mark
Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
True story: I bought a six figure coin because I loved it even though I knew it hadn't cac'd. I did know it wasn't rejected because it was doctored, rather because of a tiny hairline on the reverse. I felt the overall coin merited the grade and the price was appropriate. Two years later, upon a second look it did sticker
If you know your series and you know it wasn't doctored, you can go with your gut.
This is just another way of stating "Buy the coin, not the holder", which is exactly what I do. The grade is just a guideline; the coin still has to pass your (the buyer's) eye-appeal test. If it passes this test, and you truly are buying the coin, and not the holder, then whether or not the coin is CAC'd is irrelevant. I've seen plenty of CAC'd coins I did not like, and plenty of non-CAC'd coins I did like.
Steve