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Question for dealers- abuse of return privileges
rhedden
Posts: 6,619 ✭✭✭✭✭
- Here's a question for the dealers among us. What do you do to stop "resellers" from abusing your return privileges? I've often wondered about these situations, and since I might like to become a dealer when I get closer to retirement, I thought I'd ask.
- Example 1: A customer buys a coin in your shop, and then wants to return it a week later. You suspect it's been listed on eBay the whole time, or maybe it was walking around town to different buyers.
- Example 2: A probable vest-pocket dealer you don't know too well buys a coin off your table on Thursday at a major show, then suddenly wants to return it on Sunday morning, saying he found a better one for his "set." The slab has some friction on it now, and you suspect it's been gliding back and forth across other peoples' cases for the past 4 days.
- In both of these hypothetical examples, assume you don't have any proof or concrete evidence that the person's been shopping your inventory around, completely free of charge or risk (the dirtbag....).
- Example 3: An eBay buyer gets one of your coins, relists it at a big mark-up in a 3-day BIN, and then wants to return it right at the end of your 7-day return window after it didn't sell. In this case, you saw the item relisted and it made you grumble a little, but you know you're going to get negged -or worse- if you refuse to accept the return.
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MY COINS FOR SALE AT https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/collectors-showcase/other/bajjerfans-coins-sale/3876
Here's a question for the dealers among us. What do you do to stop "resellers" from abusing your return privileges? I've often wondered about these situations, and since I might like to become a dealer when I get closer to retirement, I thought I'd ask.
Example 1: A customer buys a coin in your shop, and then wants to return it a week later. You suspect it's been listed on eBay the whole time, or maybe it was walking around town to different buyers.
Example 2: A probable vest-pocket dealer you don't know too well buys a coin off your table on Thursday at a major show, then suddenly wants to return it on Sunday morning, saying he found a better one for his "set." The slab has some friction on it now, and you suspect it's been gliding back and forth across other peoples' cases for the past 4 days.
In both of these hypothetical examples, assume you don't have any proof or concrete evidence that the person's been shopping your inventory around, completely free of charge or risk (the dirtbag....).
Example 3: An eBay buyer gets one of your coins, relists it at a big mark-up in a 3-day BIN, and then wants to return it right at the end of your 7-day return window after it didn't sell. In this case, you saw the item relisted and it made you grumble a little, but you know you're going to get negged -or worse- if you refuse to accept the return.
I have never had someone try to return a coin at a show, and like BryceM posted, unless there is a a return policy given, I expect all of my show sales to be considered final. I have had dealers offer me buyback guarantees on coins that I have purchased while walking shows, but typically they are 5%-10% under what purchase price was.
Ebay is another story. They practically force you to accept returns and now with Paypal buyer protection for items not as described goes 6 months. I used to worry about it, but I have only had 2 returns in the last 2 years and both were because the buyer had an issue with the assigned grade of the coin in both the top 2 TPG's slabs. In both instances, I paid the return and later sold the coin. No biggie.
My Ebay Store
On eBay, I have to accept returns even when they aren't justified. If I get a bad (or no) reason and the buyer is annoying about it, I just block them and move on. I give more leeway if it's a repeat buyer and they just happened to not like something, or if they're overall pleasant. If I had any proof (or a thought) that a buyer was returning the coin only after failing to sell it for a profit, he's blocked immediately. Of course, I can't prevent that return (thanks, eBay!) but I can prevent future business.
IF
The buyer had not appeared, what would be your current state.
You would have the coin.
Except for lost opportunity for X amount of time, you have not lost anything.
However, on 1 & 2, if the policy is no returns, then it is no returns. You may not ever see the other party again, but is it really a loss?
#3. You will wind up taking it back. You can TRY having a restocking fee but chances are, it will then turn into an SNAD and you are toast.
One other anecdote that is relevant here. Back in the 1990s, my dealer friend bought a huge collection that cost $96,000 at the time. Included in it was a blazing, drop-dead MS66 Flying Eagle cent (raw) that had subtle, pastel album toning over fully lustrous fields. It was a real eye-popper, jaw-dropper. I almost shelled out the $900 he wanted for it, but I was a grad. student at the time, and money was tight. A few months later, the eventual buyer brought the coin back for a refund. What came back was a dull, MS62-ish coin minus some of the toning, plus a light scratch on the reverse. I think the idiotic buyer tried to improve it with a soap-and water washing and just killed it, then slipped it back in the same 2x2 with some fresh staples. My dealer friend did not know what to do, so he kept the coin for a few days to show to people who had seen it, and we all said it was ruined. The buyer seriously expected the dealer to issue him a refund. Personally, I would have issued him a load of buck shot via a 12-gauge, but that's just me.
#2. I've never had anybody try to return a coin bought from me at a show. If they did, I'd tell them to pound sand. (Unless of course, said coin was proven to be counterfeit, and I missed it. That has never happened.)
#3. You are pretty much forced to take the return due to eBay's buyer-skewed feedback system, and potential CC/Paypal chargeback.
Don't let these things worry you. Get out there and rub elbows and have fun!
Shop sales are final, after a week, I would offer to buy it back, but it would be at my price. Only exception would be a coin in which I would really love to aquire back, might repurchase at sales price.
Example 2
Show sales are final, would not refund it , period. Again, only exception would be if with in a few min, buyer came back with remorse of found another he liked better, I might consider it.
Example 3
Happens all the time, with ebay policy, there is no way to avoid this. In fact, just happed. Guy bought a scrace date CC Morgan from me at about 100 lower than gsb, got it and shopped it till the 13th day and then returns it, even states to me in his email, that if I cant sell it for a profit, I'm returning it . All I can do is block him from future bidding
Time to add an example #4 as this happened to me a few years back.
4. Lack of perceived or apparent "freshness."
Had an agent sell a pair of pop top seated coins for $75K to one of the largest retail dealers in the country. This was sight-seen, on Friday, at the summer ANA when the coin market was still in FULL HEAT. On Sunday night I casually mentioned to the buyer that they were my coins, and the fact that I upgraded them shortly after buying them at auction 5 years earlier. The coins had been off the market for 5 years...and that's what my agent was instructed to say. Both had pedigrees to two of the finest collections of all time.
You should have heard the tirade from this dealer how we "ripped them off" and lied to them. They demanded their money back or lawsuits were gonna fly. Oh, and buy the way, they loved the coins....just not the fact that they were "only" off the market for 5 years, not the 10 years that they had erroneously concluded. Their market history and grades were available for them to verify had they chosen to. I returned their check that Monday and got the coins back. A few weeks later another major dealer stepped up and bought the $45K coin. The other coin went off in auction a year later and brought 30% more. 2 years after that it went up again and brought another 50% more ($30K, to $38K, to $54K). Both coins are PCGS MS66 CAC today.
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I tried to return a coin at a Sunday show once, back in 1977 (MANA?). I still had things to learn. I had traveled nearly 300 miles to this show and it was sort of a mercy purchase to buy something before I left. There was little to pick from....just this BU 1854-0 quarter for $750. After a few hours I started to regret the purchase due to all the bin marks all over it....MS60 at best. When I met with the dealer they would not grant a refund, only a trade towards something else in inventory. Thing was, if they had anything else I wanted, I'd have already bought it. These were the days where the majority of the raw coins in cases were crap/over-graded/played with. I took the coin home with me and later sold it for a $75-$100 loss. No doubt the dealer was well within their rights. I didn't shop the coin around at the show but I might have showed it to some dealers whose grading opinions I valued at that time (Renrob?). But, I also didn't have to deal with this dealer ever again....and I didn't.
The irony of this situation is that this dealer also had the James Stack 1867-s superb gem 25c in his inventory in 1977....the coin I had missed out on in March 1975 at $1800 (couldn't afford) and had lofty dreams of ownership. He was asking $5,000 and that was MOON money to me by then....3x the 1975 price. Jim Halperin ended up buying that coin for his investment fund at $5500 from either this dealer or the next guy. It later sold in NERCA's Rare Coin Fund 1 sale in spring 1980 for $30,000. It appeared I would never be able to buy it. Then in 1986 it reappeared at Auction '86 where I got it for 33% under my max bid of $14.5K (winning bid $9625). Strange how that 9 year loop got closed this way with the same dealer as the guy in the middle.
Sight-seen sales are final outside of a significant problem (authenticity, alteration) being discovered.
On eBay, I have to accept returns even when they aren't justified. If I get a bad (or no) reason and the buyer is annoying about it, I just block them and move on. I give more leeway if it's a repeat buyer and they just happened to not like something, or if they're overall pleasant. If I had any proof (or a thought) that a buyer was returning the coin only after failing to sell it for a profit, he's blocked immediately. Of course, I can't prevent that return (thanks, eBay!) but I can prevent future business.
All answers provided are excellent.
This response was simply perfect.
Example 2-Final sale. This is now a potential new transaction.
Example 3-Don't do ebay.
In honor of the memory of Cpl. Michael E. Thompson
ASE Proof with a huge scratch in the field on the obverse. I was shocked when I saw it.
So I returned it and they replaced it. Would not return coins at a show... Cheers, RickO
Menomonee Falls Wisconsin USA
http://www.pcgs.com/SetRegistr...dset.aspx?s=68269&ac=1">Musky 1861 Mint Set
10 years ago, I had a 100% return privilege on coins (excluding bullion). It was a great incentive for buyers. However, there was one retail customer (a member of this forum) who abused my policy and constantly returned coins. Over and over and over ... for several years. I have a LOT of patience, but eventually that ran out and I stopped the 100% return privilege.
eBay is a whole other matter, and as others have stated, you simply have to take a return. We do not even hesitate when a return is made. We just pay the "merchant" penalty and keep on moving to service the overwhelming majority of great customers. There are always nimrods who have to screw up things for their own gain.
Secondly, I would love to know who the nimrod screwball was who returned one coin after another to you. Finding a PM with their screen name would be delightful.
Secondly, I would love to know who the nimrod screwball was who returned one coin after another to you. Finding a PM with their screen name would be delightful.
Well, I won't divulge that information for obvious reasons. And in hindsight he did buy a lot of coins and kept many, so it is okay, I guess. I no longer put a return privilege in writing though.
One day, he was looking a at a part. It was about a $35 item, that I had MAYBE $5 into. I knew the song and dance that was coming. He asked how much, and I quoted him $100. Whine Whine Whine, are you sure it fits (yes, Ford only made 1 part for this application) etc.
Finally, I told him to TAKE it, check it out, but the next time he came back, he needed to pay me the full $100, no returns, since it was the only one I had, and it meant I would lose a sale to someone else.
It has been almost 2 years now, blissful serenity, have not had a call or visit from him since.
I think I abused the return privilege.
I will say that a dealer that, within a reasonable time (say, same show and coin was obviously not shopped around (ie...true collector, ex), accepts a return at sale price, or, having reasonably AND POLITELY explained why there may be a small (say, 10%) haircut on the return, is a dealer that is likely a stand-up person and one I know I would want to deal with again.
A dealer who comes off as arrogant, or rude, and lays down a hard line of "ALL SALES FINAL!", without even attempting a polite buy back, is one who I may agree to be in the right but one I will question ever dealing with as it lends itself to me thinking they ripped me off and know it. That I got suckered on a coin, for whatever reason, and they don't have any faith in the coin they sold me.
Like it or not, that's how I see hardline dealer who do that. Again, it's a different story if it's to another dealer (vest pocket, table, store, online website, or ebay type of dealer) than it is to a collector.
And, I also see a gray area depending on the price of the coin (ie....a coin for a few hundred or less, to a dealer with tens of thousands worth of inventory versus a coin for multiple thousands that isn't that liquid).
So, no pat answer from me.....it's all "it depends".
I am a collector though, so I see things different. I have also not had a rude/obnoxious dealer try to school me (I have "paid tuition" though).
Once, I returned a couple of coins for full price (same show) as I bought them too quickly and I didn't have my inventory list and got dupes (not modern coins). Explained to dealer and he offered the return. I continued to purchase from that dealer and didn't do much haggling.
One of the only other times I returned a coin to the same dealer, I didn't ask for a return...I asked if he would buy it back (time gone from show to show was ~6 months I think). He bought it back at ~90-100% (I forget right now, but I wasn't upset at all) and I bought a replacement (from 1 type coin to another as the first one didn't fit the rest of the way my collection went) at the price he asked. Quick, easy, and I think we were both happy.
I have purchased more from that dealer.
I've been told I tolerate fools poorly...that may explain things if I have a problem with you. Current ebay items - Nothing at the moment
I know of many who have a policy who allow returns at the same show but there is a 20% restock charge (which is similar to the policy they have in their shop). Regardless, I would prefer the person who would try return a coin to me at the same show expecting a 100% refund on a sight seen purchase do their business elsewhere.
And those are the dealers who get a lot of one time buyers....who then move on. 20% restock fee at the same show? That's ridiculous. But I agree with your final sentence. Both times dealers didn't want to make "any" effort to buy back coins I purchased from them at the same show didn't ever get my business again. That was only twice in 40 years. You make mistakes sometimes. Both were PNG dealers. Dealers need to seriously think about when collectors/customers bring them their coins back down the road and they flat out refuse to make an offer...."I can't use those right now."...."I'm a little low on cash."...etc. That's how you loose customers for life.