TPG crossover and CAC
Yorkshireman
Posts: 4,583 ✭✭✭✭✭
I have a nice 1865 $20 that is NGC graded and CAC approved.
I would like to get it in a PCGS holder and discussed this with a dealer (not the one from whom I bought the coin).
He discouraged me saying it is often hard getting the sticker back, even if the coin does cross.
However, it seems to me that if you have photos of the coin with the sticker, it would not be that hard to get CAC to re-sticker it. There is distinct toning and a mint grease streak, for lack of a better term, on the coin. SO this coin is very easy to identify.
Also, is PCGS so picky that they might refuse to cross an NGC CAC coin?
I would appreciate advice and hearing your experience with this issue.
I would like to get it in a PCGS holder and discussed this with a dealer (not the one from whom I bought the coin).
He discouraged me saying it is often hard getting the sticker back, even if the coin does cross.
However, it seems to me that if you have photos of the coin with the sticker, it would not be that hard to get CAC to re-sticker it. There is distinct toning and a mint grease streak, for lack of a better term, on the coin. SO this coin is very easy to identify.
Also, is PCGS so picky that they might refuse to cross an NGC CAC coin?
I would appreciate advice and hearing your experience with this issue.
Yorkshireman,Obsessed collector of round, metallic pieces of history.Hunting for Latin American colonial portraits plus cool US & British coins.
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Whoever told you that is wrong. I've never had a coin not re-sticker after crossing, as long as you have proof.
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https://pcgs.com/setregistry/showcase/2819
Give her a whirl and see! Speaking of "see", where are the images?
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Latin American Collection
Just because NGC & CAC likes it as a 55 PCGS might go lower.
Crossover is the only safe way to go as PCGS looks at gold quite differently then NGC.
I wouldn't crack that out...
Just because NGC & CAC likes it as a 55 PCGS might go lower.
Crossover is the only safe way to go as PCGS looks at gold quite differently then NGC.
Please elaborate on how PCGS looks differently at gold.
I wouldn't crack that out...
Just because NGC & CAC likes it as a 55 PCGS might go lower.
Crossover is the only safe way to go as PCGS looks at gold quite differently then NGC.
Please elaborate on how PCGS looks differently at gold.
If you crossover at any grade it's not uncommon to loose one or two grades going from NGC to PCGS. So it's best to just take one shot crossing at AU55 and if not you still have a CAC'd NGC. With gold if you want it in a PCGS graded holder it's best just to shop exclusively for it that way.
I have a nice 1865 $20 that is NGC graded and CAC approved.
I would like to get it in a PCGS holder and discussed this with a dealer (not the one from whom I bought the coin).
He discouraged me saying it is often hard getting the sticker back, even if the coin does cross.
However, it seems to me that if you have photos of the coin with the sticker, it would not be that hard to get CAC to re-sticker it. There is distinct toning and a mint grease streak, for lack of a better term, on the coin. SO this coin is very easy to identify.
Also, is PCGS so picky that they might refuse to cross an NGC CAC coin?
I would appreciate advice and hearing your experience with this issue.
If you submit as a crossover and get a DNC, the coin will come back in it's original holder WITH CAC sticker on it.
If you crack it and it comes back a 55, it may or may not bean. If JA liked the coin as a 55 before, he should like it as a 55 again, regardless of whose plastic it's in. Buy the coin, not the holder; grade the coin, not the holder.
Since you are doing a crossover, you will have the old certification number on your submission form and CAC will have that certification number in their database. Therefore, since you will not have modified the coin, they can easily give the coin a new sticker.
In a case like that, does CAC charge the full submission fee, or the lower re-sticker fee?
Since you are doing a crossover, you will have the old certification number on your submission form and CAC will have that certification number in their database. Therefore, since you will not have modified the coin, they can easily give the coin a new sticker.
In a case like that, does CAC charge the full submission fee, or the lower re-sticker fee?
My guess is that they will regrade it. I think they resticker only if the coin is reholdered with the same cert number.
Best to verify with JA tho.
Since you are doing a crossover, you will have the old certification number on your submission form and CAC will have that certification number in their database. Therefore, since you will not have modified the coin, they can easily give the coin a new sticker.
In a case like that, does CAC charge the full submission fee, or the lower re-sticker fee?
My guess is that they will regrade it. I think they resticker only if the coin is reholdered with the same cert number.
Best to verify with JA tho.
This is correct. It is NOT a re-sticker if it's in a new holder with a new cert number. We're talking less than $10 difference for a collector who submits.
I crossed an ngc Mercury dime a couple months ago and CAC re-stickered it at the re-sticker rate (Gold CAC at that). I provided photos of the coin in holder before the cross and even included the NGC label that PCGS sent back. I wrote a brief note explaining that the coin crossed and I just wanted it re-stickered. No issues.
If the coin is crossed at a lower grade, 53 in this case, and you submit all the proper proof to CAC, will it automatically get a gold sticker?
Lance.
Incorrect, it is a resticker. They are stickering the same coin and grade, just a different holder. As long as you have supporting documents that it went straight from the old holder to PCGS (crossover) then they have no reason to re-analyze the coin...unless the grade goes up.
I crossed an ngc Mercury dime a couple months ago and CAC re-stickered it at the re-sticker rate (Gold CAC at that). I provided photos of the coin in holder before the cross and even included the NGC label that PCGS sent back. I wrote a brief note explaining that the coin crossed and I just wanted it re-stickered. No issues.
Looks like bin there, done that experience.
Interesting. I didn't know CAC would resticker when different TPG's are involved.
If the coin is crossed at a lower grade, 53 in this case, and you submit all the proper proof to CAC, will it automatically get a gold sticker?
Lance.
why would you cross it a lower grade to begin with?
Nice looking Civil War Era gold!
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Interesting. I didn't know CAC would resticker when different TPG's are involved.
If the coin is crossed at a lower grade, 53 in this case, and you submit all the proper proof to CAC, will it automatically get a gold sticker?
Lance.
why would you cross it a lower grade to begin with?
Some will cross at any grade just to get it into a PCGS holder. That's essentially what you're doing if you crack and submit raw.
I wouldn't crack that out...
Just because NGC & CAC likes it as a 55 PCGS might go lower.
Crossover is the only safe way to go as PCGS looks at gold quite differently then NGC.
Please elaborate on how PCGS looks differently at gold.
If you crossover at any grade it's not uncommon to loose one or two grades going from NGC to PCGS. So it's best to just take one shot crossing at AU55 and if not you still have a CAC'd NGC. With gold if you want it in a PCGS graded holder it's best just to shop exclusively for it that way.
I'm with you on this one.
I believe its a nice AU55 and gives excelent value for filling the hole vs higher mint state grades.
Whoever told you that is wrong. I've never had a coin not re-sticker after crossing, as long as you have proof.
This
My 1866 Philly Mint Set
NGC is looser with their grades than PCGS, or PCGS is more strict with their grades. Been there, done that...several times.
Nice looking Civil War Era gold!
This is how bogus info gets spread around.
My Collection of Old Holders
Never a slave to one plastic brand will I ever be.
NGC is looser with their grades than PCGS, or PCGS is more strict with their grades. Been there, done that...several times.
Nice looking Civil War Era gold!
This is how bogus info gets spread around.
Originally posted by: coinbuf
Originally posted by: oih82w8
NGC is looser with their grades than PCGS, or PCGS is more strict with their grades. Been there, done that...several times.
Nice looking Civil War Era gold!
This is how bogus info gets spread around.
Nothing bogus about it.
My pleasure to provide documented proof.
One particular coin was a 1899-O 10C RPM FS-501 (unattributed), which I purchased in a NGC holder at MS62,
...only to be placed into a PCGS holder at MS60, but I got the attribution, and it is still the Top Pop in PCGS for the variety.
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Incorrect, it is a resticker. They are stickering the same coin and grade, just a different holder. As long as you have supporting documents that it went straight from the old holder to PCGS (crossover) then they have no reason to re-analyze the coin...unless the grade goes up.
I crossed an ngc Mercury dime a couple months ago and CAC re-stickered it at the re-sticker rate (Gold CAC at that). I provided photos of the coin in holder before the cross and even included the NGC label that PCGS sent back. I wrote a brief note explaining that the coin crossed and I just wanted it re-stickered. No issues.
That is not the stated policy on CAC submission forms. Only a coin submitted with the same cert. number should be charged just the $3 re-sticker fee.
Sounds like they threw you a bone.
Coin Rarities Online
Interesting. I didn't know CAC would resticker when different TPG's are involved.
If the coin is crossed at a lower grade, 53 in this case, and you submit all the proper proof to CAC, will it automatically get a gold sticker?
Lance.
why would you cross it a lower grade to begin with?
To get the automatic gold sticker since it's a re-sticker at a lower grade of course.
That's the good news and bad news, as about 50% of the coins with CAC stickers in NGC holders cross at lower grades at PCGS (whether cross at ANY or sent raw)...and when sent to CAC, they don't get a gold sticker, only a green sticker...I've learned the somewhat hard way as I've had about a total of $4k in value erosion last year on several coins, and no matter of resubmissions to PCGS (well, I tried 3 times) ever got the coin into the same grade PCGS holder, and no matter of CAC resubmission earned it a gold CAC.
Net-net, it's a very small sample size with my personal experience (in total, about half dozen coins that graded lower at PCGS), but CAC doesn't mean it will cross at grade or upgrade at PCGS, and a lower grade at PCGS doesn't mean you'll ever get a gold CAC bean -- I've never had that happen and I've even sent CAC the old certs thinking they'd gold bean the coin at 1 point lower grade -- nah!
Frankly, I don't know how some people -- and I really do mean some people -- get gold CAC beans... remains a mystery to me
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Or are folks afraid they have a gift, and don't want to lose the gift?
BTW, the coin looks nice from the image.
I have a nice 1865 $20 that is NGC graded and CAC approved.
I would like to get it in a PCGS holder and discussed this with a dealer (not the one from whom I bought the coin).
He discouraged me saying it is often hard getting the sticker back, even if the coin does cross.
However, it seems to me that if you have photos of the coin with the sticker, it would not be that hard to get CAC to re-sticker it. There is distinct toning and a mint grease streak, for lack of a better term, on the coin. SO this coin is very easy to identify.
Also, is PCGS so picky that they might refuse to cross an NGC CAC coin?
I would appreciate advice and hearing your experience with this issue.
Most cross at grade. Some at one grade lower. But in 100% cases if the coin was stickered in NGC plastic provided it is in the same grade (not higher) it will resticker. It becomes fun if it downgrades or upgrades but in same grade it will get a new sticker.
I would have no interest in crossing as do not believe upgrade possible. I play cross game to win, not tie or lose. NGC shows $5200 market value - I would price it a $6250 with the CAC sticker (TPG price x around 20% premium as per Spreadsheet on select coins from dealer pricelists). My goal to sell would be somewhere between my price and my cost but obviously negotiate closer to my price lol. The PCGS price guide shows $4650 market value for it in AU55. CW shows 3000 AU50 and 4350 vs AU58. I calculate my sell as higher of TPG price vs CW plus another 20% for CAC.
I believe its a nice AU55 and gives excelent value for filling the hole vs higher mint state grades.
I may ruffle some feathers with this post...
How does having a CAC sticker justify an extra 20%, $1000 in this case, over the higher of two list values for the grade? Is this a standard or common practice among dealers?
This whole thread is reaffirming my indifference for cac stickering. I can understand a cac sticker being a reason not to sell under list value, but adding a significant premium because a coin is considered accurately graded makes no sense to me and seems like a bit of a slap in the face to collectors.
Maybe I am wrong here?
Collector, occasional seller
Hey you're not stepping on toes here. You might want to ask this particular dealer if he pays a 20% premium for cac coins as he said he would sell them. Going by previous posts, me don't think so.
Yorkshireman - How did things shake out?
Delayed sending them in, but they are at CAC now. Stay tuned.
It isn't a slam dunk P55 on a cross but it is a nice coin and likely has the luster to support the grade. Save yourself the money and headache and crack it.
That's basically how "crosses" work today if you want them. Either that, or put cross at any grade and be willing to accept a 53 grade.
I've been submitting 19th century gold and silver type coins to both TPG's since they started. It's not a secret that one is somewhat more conservative than the other over the general US coin spectrum. While that difference could be quite small at times (say 55/45 or 52/48) it's definitely there. If you don't believe me, look at the sticker rates on the Eugene Gardner, and Dick Osburn collections. On Osburn it was 38% PCGS vs. 3% NGC stickers, a stunning 13X difference. On Gardner it was a 3.3X factor.