"Grand Pretensions"

lordmarcovan

"Grand Pretensions"



"W.H. Vanderbilt" carved on 1826 Capped Bust half dollar







Larger obverse scan

Larger reverse scan



Host coin: 1826 Capped Bust half dollar, unaltered except for "W.H. Vanderbilt" carving in left obverse field. Ex- "lbandrc" (eBay)





Is it really possible this coin once belonged to famous 19th century railroad tycoon William Henry Vanderbilt (1821-1885)?



Sure, it's possible.



Is it probable? Not very.



But even if the engraving is a fantasy, it could be an old fantasy, from his lifetime. He was very rich and famous, after all, so anyone with a bit of time on their hands could’ve carved his name into a coin and perhaps concocted some crazy story or scheme to go with it. Or I’ll admit it’s even possible that somebody in more recent times did the same thing. My personal suspicions are that the carving is old, but let’s just say I’m not convinced the coin had anything to do with W.H. Vanderbilt personally.



But considering I acquired this piece for about 1/3 less than the regular G4 price of an 1826 Bust half dollar, I saw no reason at all not to include it in my Oddball collection.



You must admit it's intriguing. Fantasy love token? I'm OK with that. Real Vanderbilt relic from his early days? Wow, wouldn't that be neat.



Either way, I'm happy with it.







Engraved/Counterstamped/Oddball Type Set

gonzer

Highly improbable...he would of used an 1804 dollar.

lordmarcovan

Originally posted by: gonzer

Highly improbable...he would of used an 1804 dollar.

If he knew anything about numismatics, which he might not have.



More likely would have been a coin from 1821- his birthyear.

DaveWcoins

Super cool -- I think so anyway. I suspect it was done at a much later date.



Perhaps someone on the boards can answer this -- when was "cursive" writing invented? When did it become popular? That style of writing doesn't seem to be contemporary to that time... it seems much more modern to me.

lordmarcovan

Originally posted by: DaveWcoins

Super cool -- I think so anyway. I suspect it was done at a much later date.



Perhaps someone on the boards can answer this -- when was "cursive" writing invented? When did it become popular? That style of writing doesn't seem to be contemporary to that time... it seems much more modern to me.

"Cursive" script goes, way WAY back. But you're right. Something about that style of the carving does look a bit later, probably because we're more accustomed to the neat, tight, flowing script often seen in more professional 19th century engraving.



I have, however, seen cruder hand-done inscriptions that looked similar to this which were almost certainly done in that era. It could've been done by Sammy the Street Urchin rather than Joe the Jeweler.



When this coin is in hand, the main thing I'll be looking for is whether the script was actually carved by hand or done with a more modern electric engraving machine. I think it's old... but HOW old is the question.



PS- here is the Wikipedia page on the origins of Cursive writing

CaptHenway

Does not look genuine and original to me.

lordmarcovan

Originally posted by: CaptHenway

Does not look genuine and original to me.

"Genuine and original" as what? A Bust half? A love token? As a 19th century piece?



Of course it probably isn't William Henry Vanderbilt's pocket piece. Maybe it wasn't even carved in the 19th century, though I am waiting to see it under a loupe before making that determination.



It certainly looks like a real Bust half to me.



As mentioned, I paid less than G4 money for it, so even if it's a fantasy engraving (as seems likely), it still fits my Oddball set. There isn't a lot of downside at the price I paid.

TopographicOceans

Looks like it was the first time "he" signed his name and forgot how long "his" signature was

291fifth

Where's the melt bucket?

lordmarcovan

Originally posted by: Realone

If you'd asked me I would say it was signed by the true Mr Vanderbilt at a very young age. But impossible to prove. As the great Sherlock Holmes would probably write, it was signed by a young boy of great wealth in the early to mid 1800's. 50c was available to him as a privileged young man he thought high enough of himself to sign his name on objects of currency and value.

he was basically practicing signing his name which would have been normal for a young man of is stature.

He was just learning to sign his name and realized his family name was well to do and known although it was prior to his family climbing to the next step. He was pompous then as he was later in life.

He might have created it as a lucky pocket piece, if he was of an older age he would have thought to have it engraved but due to his young age this was good enough and possibly meant more since it was a live signature albeit not very well thought out i.e. he had to break it up into two parts, but that is typical of youngsters.

My wild musings ran along similar lines.

Originally posted by: 291fifth



Where's the melt bucket?

Nowhere in sight! *gasp!*



You must be a part of ISIL or ISIS or whatchamacallit to suggest melting this World Heritage treasure! Tsk, tsk.

ricko

Another possibility... perhaps it was given to some lad by Mr. Vanderbilt...and he kept it

as a good luck token while building his own career..... just a thought. Cheers, RickO

lordmarcovan

This piece arrived and looks nicer in hand. I will need to reimage it.



Haven't taken a loupe to the engraved inscription yet, but I do get the impression that it is old.

sparky64

I think it's really cool and like how it stirs the imagination.

grip

The N looks more like an M and the T looks like an upside down V with a line going across to make it a T.
Just thinking .........

grip

Text

mbogoman

but the last name is Vandenbilt and not Vanderbilt

Sorry, I disagree. It is clearly Vanderbilt, not Vandenbilt. Analyze the letter structure more closely. In the first "n" in Vanderbilt, the engraved line coming from the lower part of the "a" moves upward and gently curves into a hump, then repeats (i.e. two virtually identical "humps"). The letter after the "e" moves upward, then takes a sharp turn down at about 125 deg angle in a straight line, then makes another sharp turn straight down, then loops upward and comes back through the downward line. Elementary hand-writing analysis would conclude that these are two different letters...

mbogoman

Sorry, I am a believer in Occam's razor. They are two different letters. When a person runs out of room on something like this (especially a kid), they are more likely to try to squeeze in the last letter by shrinking its size and not by adding a completely new dimension (like a loop). That loop at the bottom of the last letter was clearly intentionally made. There is no loop in the first "n"; not even close.

mbogoman

I will agree to disagree. Kids don't have a pattern developed yet like adults do and even adults will change their patterns to fit the situation, mood or need. The last letter has an extra figure similar to an "n" and obviously it looks different than the first "n" but that doesn't mean it isn't another "n" imho.

Somebody old enough to have developed the strength and dexterity to deeply engrave on a small metallic object has certainly developed a pattern and style of writing. This wasn't a 6 year old kid. If I wanted to waste any more time on this I'd put it to a vote. But a cold beer awaits me and it will be far more enjoyable than this ridiculous pi$$ing contest.

TopographicOceans

I'm going to engrave Bill Gates on a Kennedy half and bury it so future generations will have something to muse about.

Alltheabove76

Alltheabove76

I think the best piece of proof that he was not the creator is that Van Derbilt was always separated in his signature, his father Cornelius signed that way as well. They are connected on the coin.

ricko

We have not yet received LordM's final evaluation..... Cheers, RickO

lordmarcovan

Originally posted by: ricko

We have not yet received LordM's final evaluation..... Cheers, RickO

I don't really have a final evaluation.



Could it have been his? Maybe, but probably not.



Let's just say I ain't holdin' my breath. It's a cool enough "what if?" scenario for me as it is.



PS- Realone and mbogoman's "VandeRbilt versus VandeNbilt" disagreement must've gone down after I wandered off, because I had missed it.



I do think it says "VandeRbilt"- I don't see an "n" there- but that doesn't mean I'm willing to arm-wrestle over that conviction, and, as mentioned, I'm certainly not going to swear up and down that the famous W.H. Vanderbilt once owned this coin. It's just that small possibility that makes it fun to speculate on, is all.



Also, I think any argument of handwriting styles is rather moot, because signing your name with pen and ink and engraving it in metal with a tool are two entirely different mechanical processes- done at different speeds- which are bound to produce different results. I know MY signature would look pretty different if I tried to scratch it into a coin. (But the point about the coin lacking any spacing after "Van" is interesting.)

ricko

OK.. we now have the final input... Thanks LordM.... I totally agree about the signature... it would be very different between pen and tool. Cheers, RickO

hchcoin

Cool coin any way you look at it. I like your oddball collection

epcjimi1

Originally posted by: Realone
Obviously not a provable Vanderbilt piece and to say it could be is really silly even though it could be.

This. I think.

TigersFan2

It's more likely he would have engraved "copy" on it to deter anyone stealing it.

TigersFan2

I think the engraving was done early in the coin's life. Note where the engraving was done. If someone wanted to engrave such a coin in its present condition, the flat area across the capped bust is a more inviting place. Based on where the engraving was made, it was likely done when the coin was in a higher grade and that flat area wasn't available.

DollarAfterDollar

I'm just glad that now a days we have the internet. I can't imagine being that bored that I need to carve someone's name into a coin for entertainment.

lordmarcovan

Originally posted by: Realone

A wealthy tycoon is not going to carve his name in the manner in which someone did where the quality of workmanship is so poor.

Hence the title of this thread.



And the cartoon in the OP.

Unfortunately this is a mystery that will never be solved.

True, it never will be, but that doesn't have to be "unfortunate". Some mysteries are kinda fun. We're not talkin' JFK from the Grassy Knoll, here. We're talkin' "conversation piece".



That's the whole strategy of my "Oddball" collection- to acquire cool, "gee whiz", interesting, one-of-a-kind sorta stuff you don't see every day. Stuff to talk about or speculate over.



Which this certainly is.



And, for my money (which wasn't much- only about the basic G4 price of an 1826 half), I'd say it has done its job well as a conversation piece already.

Alltheabove76

While it is true that the handwriting would possibly look different engraved as opposed to written, I believe that Van derbilt being two words is something that was a matter of style and discussion in their family and would have been the same.

It would not have been any more or less difficult to not attach them when engraving.