<< <i>The Red Book isn't a wholesale ("buy") listing. It shows retail prices that a coin dealer would charge you on average for a particular coin.
If you go to your bank and buy rolls of ATB quarters, pick out the nicer ones, open a coin shop, staple the quarters into 2x2 holders, write the price on them, put them out on display, pay your rent and utilities, and want to put some bread on your table, then yes, charging a collector $0.40 for that coin seems reasonable. >>
If I argued with Red Book priing for clads "too low" certainly wouldn't be the issue.
For instance my 58th edition lists a Gem 1983-P quarter as being worth $40. At that time the wholesale price for BU rolls was over $40!!! This is despite the fact that true Gems of some of these coins may not exist at all!!! I've never seen a 1982-P quarter in true Gem even after advertising widely to pay $40 each all through the 1990's. I paid Gem prices for a very few but they were not full Gems if you define the term as a coin well struck from good dies with very little marking. They simply were not well struck and very few dies were in both good condition and properly set. This coin which probably doesn't exist in Gem lists at $15.
It's the same across the board. A 1969 quarter which is attractive is scarce in any condition at all and an attrac- tive XF is quite scarce (fewer than 100 exist)and it lists for face value and $5 in Gem.
People don't collect moderns because they are percieved to be common and much of the reason they are per- cieved as common is the low valuations. Of course the near total lack of demand is the chief reason. It's worse with world moderns because most just list for a dollar or two until that particular market gets a little demand and the price shoots up as much as 40,000%. Before that demand causes the change in price there are people trying to buy the coin but they can't find them. It's the same with the '69 quarter; people are looking but they don't know they won't find them because the guides imply they are as common as the junk everyone thinks they are.
This situation can not persist indefinitely because the supply is continuing to decrease at more than 3% annually and there is continually increasing demand. Much of the reason the supply is decreasing at a breakneck pace is that the guides suggest the coins are common so they get spent and worn out or lost in circulation.
The issue with the State and ATB quarters being given a value above face is that they were minted in quantities far greater than previous Washington quarters despite the need for coinage decreasing because we're becoming a more electronic money society.
In the 1990-1998 period, roughly 1 billion to 1.6 billion circulation Washington quarters were minted annually.
In 1999, roughly 4.2 billion State quarters were minted. In 2000, roughly 6.2 billion State quarters were minted.
By 2003, the number had decreased to roughly 2.2 billion State quarters minted.
For 1999-2008, every year had an annual State quarter mintage double or more than double the 1990-1998 annual mintage. The only exception is 2009 with the Territory quarters of roughly 650 million.
For the ATB quarters, the mintage seem to be under the 1 billion each year, which is starting to reflect the decrease in need and/or the oversupply of the state quarters.
Bottom line, the Mint went crazy in 1999-2008 with the state quarter program, making many more quarters than necessary. I expect that there are hundreds of millions of state quarters still sitting in vaults that have never entered into circulation. Perhaps they should start putting them in large GSA holders. ha ha ha.
<< <i>What you are seeing is "service charge" valuations. >>
Exactly, if a dealer sells a circulated state quarter to someone for $0.50, the amount over face is a service charge for the convenience and not a reflection of the value of that circulated state quarter.
The Whitman "Red Book" has been a "useful Guide for US Coins . This a great publication that dates back to the 1940's. Ebay is a rather new and fine source for buying/selling US coins. You can areas within both references that 'do not" reflect the true, current values of the coins that we collect; classic and modern. Value is simply the price that a buyer or seller perceives the item to be worth.
I was very active beginning in 2005 to present in acquiring BU 2004 D Wisconsin Extra Leaf Quarters on Ebay, from coin dealers, individuals and looking for them at San Antonio, Tx banks when they were released. I have seen where Ebay and its sometimes greedy sellers collectively manipulated the coin prices to a ridiculous" High" prices for these State Quarter varieties back in the 2005-2006 time period. You can easily "be taken in" by all the Ebay pricing for coins only to see these modern rarities fall right on their faces in value. Examples: MN extra tree quarters, Speared bison nickels, 2004 P DDO nickels, Godless Washington dollars to name a few.
IMHO, there is No perfect source for valuing coins in the present or trying to decide what their will be worth sometime in the future. Dealer promotions can certainly determine the current values of certain coins, but will that pent up demand and price structure survive for years to come? I think that if you feel like a coin is overpriced then use you time and experience and try to acquire the coin at what you feel is a fair price. I try to acquire coins that are of truly low mintage and will be of interest at reasonable prices in future generations. When you depart from simply trying to collect a series of say clad coins at above face value, then you find that Numismatics is really a business and not a hobby.
<< <i>The Red Book doesn't comment on value; it reports on prices that coin dealers charge, on average, for particular coins.
A buyer might not value the staples and other overhead, but the dealer still needs to set a price. >>
thus making a profit >>
It's funny, I once had a person in the coin shop complain that we were selling something for more than we paid for it......
Numismatist. 50 year member ANA. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner numerous NLG Literary Awards.
<< <i>What you are seeing is "service charge" valuations. >>
Exactly, if a dealer sells a circulated state quarter to someone for $0.50, the amount over face is a service charge for the convenience and not a reflection of the value of that circulated state quarter. >>
It's the same thing. He "consumes" the service when he takes possession of the coin, and the service is now gone. You're correct, he's left with 25 cents.
<< <i>I believe strongly that the value of a coin is determined by the market and not by a dealer's ask price or a dealer's overhead. >>
Nobody has disputed you on this point. In fact, Dentuck and the Capt have agreed with you on this point. They and others attempted to explain to you how the Red Book lists general asking price and NOT value.
I believe strongly that the value of a coin is determined by the market and not by a dealer's ask price or a dealer's overhead.
I think your mistake is that you are conflating value and price. You can compare the value of the coins you get on ebay with the redbook price, and realize that you are getting a bargain, but you can't expect the price in the redbook to mirror the bargain price. That would make the retail market, which the redbook actually reports, seem over-valued.
It is the pricing conundrum: If the bargain price is what the redbook or any other price guide reported, then the market would collapse. Prices would go lower and lower as the bargain prices got reported and then buyers would want to buy cheaper than that price, lowering again the reported price.
<< <i> I believe strongly that the value of a coin is determined by the market and not by a dealer's ask price or a dealer's overhead.
I think your mistake is that you are conflating value and price. You can compare the value of the coins you get on ebay with the redbook price, and realize that you are getting a bargain, but you can't expect the price in the redbook to mirror the bargain price. That would make the retail market, which the redbook actually reports, seem over-valued.
It is the pricing conundrum: If the bargain price is what the redbook or any other price guide reported, then the market would collapse. Prices would go lower and lower as the bargain prices got reported and then buyers would want to buy cheaper than that price, lowering again the reported price. >>
Another conundrum is this... If you look at an Ebay action as the market, what is the price? Assume a PCGS coin sells for $50 with free shipping. The buyer pays a net $49 ($50 less $1 Ebay Bucks). The seller receives $42 ($50 less Ebay fees, PayPal fees and shipping costs). So is the market for this coin $49 or $42?
In that example, the $7 difference could be interpreted as the overhead of selling on Ebay, analogous to a B&M store having to allocate a share of their rent, utilities and salary to each sale.
<< <i>I believe strongly that the value of a coin is determined by the market and not by a dealer's ask price or a dealer's overhead. >>
Nobody has disputed you on this point. In fact, Dentuck and the Capt have agreed with you on this point. They and others attempted to explain to you how the Red Book lists general asking price and NOT value. >>
Yep, I understand that point now. A lot of it is perspective. I'm mainly a collector/buyer so I try to equate value with price and hopefully have value > price.
Dentuck...some people are genetically predisposed to be commie pinkos. To those people, common sense economics makes no sense. They're hopeless. Your a good man. Take a deep breath and give it a rest. Frustrating....isn't it?
Another conundrum is this... If you look at an Ebay action as the market, what is the price? Assume a PCGS coin sells for $50 with free shipping. The buyer pays a net $49 ($50 less $1 Ebay Bucks). The seller receives $42 ($50 less Ebay fees, PayPal fees and shipping costs). So is the market for this coin $49 or $42?
IMO, you're really overthinking this thing.
What does a beer cost? It depends entirely on where and when you drink it. Last night at a comedy show I paid $12 for a beer that would be $1.50 at at the supermarket.
<< <i>What does a beer cost? It depends entirely on where and when you drink it. Last night at a comedy show I paid $12 for a beer that would be $1.50 at at the supermarket. >>
Comments
<< <i>The Red Book isn't a wholesale ("buy") listing. It shows retail prices that a coin
dealer would charge you on average for a particular coin.
If you go to your bank and buy rolls of ATB quarters, pick out the nicer ones, open
a coin shop, staple the quarters into 2x2 holders, write the price on them, put them
out on display, pay your rent and utilities, and want to put some bread on your
table, then yes, charging a collector $0.40 for that coin seems reasonable. >>
If I argued with Red Book priing for clads "too low" certainly wouldn't be the issue.
For instance my 58th edition lists a Gem 1983-P quarter as being worth $40. At that time the wholesale
price for BU rolls was over $40!!! This is despite the fact that true Gems of some of these coins may not
exist at all!!! I've never seen a 1982-P quarter in true Gem even after advertising widely to pay $40 each
all through the 1990's. I paid Gem prices for a very few but they were not full Gems if you define the term
as a coin well struck from good dies with very little marking. They simply were not well struck and very few
dies were in both good condition and properly set. This coin which probably doesn't exist in Gem lists at $15.
It's the same across the board. A 1969 quarter which is attractive is scarce in any condition at all and an attrac-
tive XF is quite scarce (fewer than 100 exist)and it lists for face value and $5 in Gem.
People don't collect moderns because they are percieved to be common and much of the reason they are per-
cieved as common is the low valuations. Of course the near total lack of demand is the chief reason. It's worse
with world moderns because most just list for a dollar or two until that particular market gets a little demand and
the price shoots up as much as 40,000%. Before that demand causes the change in price there are people trying
to buy the coin but they can't find them. It's the same with the '69 quarter; people are looking but they don't know
they won't find them because the guides imply they are as common as the junk everyone thinks they are.
This situation can not persist indefinitely because the supply is continuing to decrease at more than 3% annually
and there is continually increasing demand. Much of the reason the supply is decreasing at a breakneck pace is that
the guides suggest the coins are common so they get spent and worn out or lost in circulation.
In the 1990-1998 period, roughly 1 billion to 1.6 billion circulation Washington quarters were minted annually.
In 1999, roughly 4.2 billion State quarters were minted.
In 2000, roughly 6.2 billion State quarters were minted.
By 2003, the number had decreased to roughly 2.2 billion State quarters minted.
For 1999-2008, every year had an annual State quarter mintage double or more than double the 1990-1998 annual mintage. The only exception is 2009 with the Territory quarters of roughly 650 million.
For the ATB quarters, the mintage seem to be under the 1 billion each year, which is starting to reflect the decrease in need and/or the oversupply of the state quarters.
Bottom line, the Mint went crazy in 1999-2008 with the state quarter program, making many more quarters than necessary. I expect that there are hundreds of millions of state quarters still sitting in vaults that have never entered into circulation. Perhaps they should start putting them in large GSA holders. ha ha ha.
<< <i>What you are seeing is "service charge" valuations. >>
Exactly, if a dealer sells a circulated state quarter to someone for $0.50, the amount over face is a service charge for the convenience and not a reflection of the value of that circulated state quarter.
I was very active beginning in 2005 to present in acquiring BU 2004 D Wisconsin Extra Leaf Quarters on Ebay, from coin dealers, individuals and looking for them at San Antonio, Tx banks when they were released. I have seen where Ebay and its sometimes greedy sellers collectively manipulated the coin prices to a ridiculous" High" prices for these State Quarter varieties back in the 2005-2006 time period. You can easily "be taken in" by all the Ebay pricing for coins only to see these modern rarities fall right on their faces in value. Examples: MN extra tree quarters, Speared bison nickels, 2004 P DDO nickels, Godless Washington dollars to name a few.
IMHO, there is No perfect source for valuing coins in the present or trying to decide what their will be worth sometime in the future. Dealer promotions can certainly determine the current values of certain coins, but will that pent up demand and price structure survive for years to come? I think that if you feel like a coin is overpriced then use you time and experience and try to acquire the coin at what you feel is a fair price. I try to acquire coins that are of truly low mintage and will be of interest at reasonable prices in future generations. When you depart from simply trying to collect a series of say clad coins at above face value, then you find that Numismatics is really a business and not a hobby.
<< <i>
<< <i>The Red Book doesn't comment on value; it reports
on prices that coin dealers charge, on average, for particular
coins.
A buyer might not value the staples and other overhead,
but the dealer still needs to set a price. >>
thus making a profit
It's funny, I once had a person in the coin shop complain that we were selling something for more than we paid for it......
<< <i>
<< <i>What you are seeing is "service charge" valuations. >>
Exactly, if a dealer sells a circulated state quarter to someone for $0.50, the amount over face is a service charge for the convenience and not a reflection of the value of that circulated state quarter. >>
It's the same thing. He "consumes" the service when he takes possession of the coin, and the service is now gone. You're correct, he's left with 25 cents.
Liberty: Parent of Science & Industry
btw, this is how the coin business works on all levels
Liberty: Parent of Science & Industry
<< <i>I believe strongly that the value of a coin is determined by the market and not by a dealer's ask price or a dealer's overhead. >>
Nobody has disputed you on this point. In fact, Dentuck and the Capt have agreed with you on this point. They and others attempted to explain to you how the Red Book lists general asking price and NOT value.
Choice Numismatics www.ChoiceCoin.com
CN eBay
All of my collection is in a safe deposit box!
I think your mistake is that you are conflating value and price. You can compare the value of the coins you get on ebay with the redbook price, and realize that you are getting a bargain, but you can't expect the price in the redbook to mirror the bargain price. That would make the retail market, which the redbook actually reports, seem over-valued.
It is the pricing conundrum: If the bargain price is what the redbook or any other price guide reported, then the market would collapse. Prices would go lower and lower as the bargain prices got reported and then buyers would want to buy cheaper than that price, lowering again the reported price.
<< <i> I believe strongly that the value of a coin is determined by the market and not by a dealer's ask price or a dealer's overhead.
I think your mistake is that you are conflating value and price. You can compare the value of the coins you get on ebay with the redbook price, and realize that you are getting a bargain, but you can't expect the price in the redbook to mirror the bargain price. That would make the retail market, which the redbook actually reports, seem over-valued.
It is the pricing conundrum: If the bargain price is what the redbook or any other price guide reported, then the market would collapse. Prices would go lower and lower as the bargain prices got reported and then buyers would want to buy cheaper than that price, lowering again the reported price. >>
Another conundrum is this... If you look at an Ebay action as the market, what is the price? Assume a PCGS coin sells for $50 with free shipping. The buyer pays a net $49 ($50 less $1 Ebay Bucks). The seller receives $42 ($50 less Ebay fees, PayPal fees and shipping costs). So is the market for this coin $49 or $42?
In that example, the $7 difference could be interpreted as the overhead of selling on Ebay, analogous to a B&M store having to allocate a share of their rent, utilities and salary to each sale.
<< <i>A small and relevant excerpt from the OP:
<< <i>I believe strongly that the value of a coin is determined by the market and not by a dealer's ask price or a dealer's overhead. >>
Nobody has disputed you on this point. In fact, Dentuck and the Capt have agreed with you on this point. They and others attempted to explain to you how the Red Book lists general asking price and NOT value. >>
Yep, I understand that point now. A lot of it is perspective. I'm mainly a collector/buyer so I try to equate value with price and hopefully have value > price.
IMO, you're really overthinking this thing.
What does a beer cost? It depends entirely on where and when you drink it. Last night at a comedy show I paid $12 for a beer that would be $1.50 at at the supermarket.
Liberty: Parent of Science & Industry
<< <i>What does a beer cost? It depends entirely on where and when you drink it. Last night at a comedy show I paid $12 for a beer that would be $1.50 at at the supermarket. >>
$12 a beer? I hope the comedy was funny.