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Red Book Pricing of Low End Coins
TigersFan2
Posts: 1,442 ✭✭
I bought the 2016 Red Book for my nephew and am looking through it. From what planet do they pull some of these prices for modern coins? Here are a couple of examples...
America the Beautiful Quarters: $0.40 to $0.50 in AU50. If I go down to the bank and get rolls of quarters and pull out the nicer America the Beautiful ones, someone will pay me 2x face? Sounds like a get-rich-quick scheme. I just need to find the sucker.
Eisenhower Dollars: $2 in EF40. I've seen dealers with buckets full of these at coin shows who can't give them away at $1.25 each.
Anyway, my nephew will be encouraged by the high values of clad coinage.
(Subject changed based on excellent suggestion in the thread.)
America the Beautiful Quarters: $0.40 to $0.50 in AU50. If I go down to the bank and get rolls of quarters and pull out the nicer America the Beautiful ones, someone will pay me 2x face? Sounds like a get-rich-quick scheme. I just need to find the sucker.
Eisenhower Dollars: $2 in EF40. I've seen dealers with buckets full of these at coin shows who can't give them away at $1.25 each.
Anyway, my nephew will be encouraged by the high values of clad coinage.
(Subject changed based on excellent suggestion in the thread.)
I love the 3 P's: PB&J, PBR and PCGS.
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dealer would charge you on average for a particular coin.
If you go to your bank and buy rolls of ATB quarters, pick out the nicer ones, open
a coin shop, staple the quarters into 2x2 holders, write the price on them, put them
out on display, pay your rent and utilities, and want to put some bread on your
table, then yes, charging a collector $0.40 for that coin seems reasonable.
For modern cents, nickels and dimes, the 2016 Red Book doesn't attempt to place a value above face on any circulated grades. But for 1999-present quarters, it puts a value on AU50 coins. They should have just left it with values for MS grades like the cents, nickels and dimes. It just feeds the myth/hype that the special 1999-present quarters are worth more than face when they've been minted in very high numbers and can easily be found.
<< <i>But there still needs to be a buyer at that price to make the value "real." A dealer putting a price tag on a coin doesn't give it value. >>
These sell daily at prices above face value on eBay, and less frequently at B&M shops. A lot of people filling albums aren't going to spend hours going to the bank and searching rolls or bags.
-Paul
<< <i>These sell daily at prices above face value on eBay, and less frequently at B&M shops. A lot of people filling albums aren't going to spend hours going to the bank and searching rolls or bags. >>
But I'd argue that the quarters that are selling above face are MS grades or AU grades being misidentified to the novice as MS. Please show me where 1999-present quarters are being sold on Ebay at above face where they're identified as circulated, AU grade. They're so plentiful in MS grades that it makes no sense that someone would choose to pay above face for an AU advertised specimen.
<< <i>But there still needs to be a buyer at that price to make the value "real." A dealer putting a price tag on a coin doesn't give it value.
For modern cents, nickels and dimes, the 2016 Red Book doesn't attempt to place a value above face on any circulated grades. But for 1999-present quarters, it puts a value on AU50 coins. They should have just left it with values for MS grades like the cents, nickels and dimes. It just feeds the myth/hype that the special 1999-present quarters are worth more than face when they've been minted in very high numbers and can easily be found. >>
Many coins even counterfeits have a value to someone but that someone may not be you.
<< <i>
<< <i>These sell daily at prices above face value on eBay, and less frequently at B&M shops. A lot of people filling albums aren't going to spend hours going to the bank and searching rolls or bags. >>
But I'd argue that the quarters that are selling above face are MS grades or AU grades being misidentified to the novice as MS. Please show me where 1999-present quarters are being sold on Ebay at above face where they're identified as circulated, AU grade. They're so plentiful in MS grades that it makes no sense that someone would choose to pay above face for an AU advertised specimen. >>
have you done any research yourself ? This was easy to find in about 3 seconds: http://www.ebay.com/itm/13-modern-USA-coins-8-quarters-3-5-cents-2-dimes-1939-1998-/141765731676?hash=item2101e5655c
<< <i>If you go to your bank and buy rolls of ATB quarters, pick out the nicer ones, open
a coin shop, staple the quarters into 2x2 holders, write the price on them, put them
out on display, pay your rent and utilities, and want to put some bread on your
table, then yes, charging a collector $0.40 for that coin seems reasonable. >>
But the value of the quarter is the quarter. The cost of the 2x2, the staples, the rent and utilities adds no value to the quarter. A circulated clad quarter is still a circulated clad quarter.
on prices that coin dealers charge, on average, for particular
coins.
A buyer might not value the staples and other overhead,
but the dealer still needs to set a price.
<< <i> have you done any research yourself ? This was easy to find in about 3 seconds: http://www.ebay.com/itm/13-modern-USA-coins-8-quarters-3-5-cents-2-dimes-1939-1998-/141765731676?hash=item2101e5655c >>
That is an auction from a seller in Great Britain to presumably another buyer in Great Britain. That's apples and oranges to selling circulated clad quarters IN THE USA for more than face on Ebay.
<< <i>The Red Book doesn't comment on value; it reports
on prices that coin dealers charge, on average, for particular
coins.
A buyer might not value the staples and other overhead,
but the dealer still needs to set a price. >>
But a dealer setting a price doesn't establish a value. A value takes a market that's willing to buy a that price. The value isn't defined by the supply curve, but by where the supply curve crosses the demand curve.
I could put a $100,000 price tag on my Toyota truck, but that wouldn't make my truck's value $100,000. It requires buyers to help establish the price.
This is my basic complaint with published price/value guides... They're dealer-centric and based on dealer ask prices rather than being based on an actual market of many transactions. A circulated clad quarter is worth 25 cents regardless of how much overhead a coin dealer has.
<< <i>A dealer won't sell a particular quarter for $0.25. Too much overhead. >>
But overhead doesn't establish value of a coin. Overhead is what the dealer must overcome with his bid/ask spread and being able to arbitrage in the marketplace. But the coin, not the overhead.
1999 Delaware quarter in AU-50, and you'll
drive over to his shop and pick it up, he won't
refund your gas money and he won't price the
coin at $0.25. He'll price it at $0.40.
If you buy a roll of 40, he might discount it to
$0.35, because his per-coin expenses go down.
buy certain quarters for $0.25 apiece. That shows
an excellent wholesale source. It would be nice to
get them at $0.20 each, but $0.25 is decent.
Would you individually retail-price each coin at $0.25
in your coin shop?
<< <i>
<< <i> have you done any research yourself ? This was easy to find in about 3 seconds: http://www.ebay.com/itm/13-modern-USA-coins-8-quarters-3-5-cents-2-dimes-1939-1998-/141765731676?hash=item2101e5655c >>
That is an auction from a seller in Great Britain to presumably another buyer in Great Britain. That's apples and oranges to selling circulated clad quarters IN THE USA for more than face on Ebay. >>
Nope it was on the us site but from Britain.
Did you take a look at other completed sales?
Quarters are actually worth less in Britain lol so um.....
<< <i>If you call a dealer and ask him to get you a
1999 Delaware quarter in AU-50, and you'll
drive over to his shop and pick it up, he won't
refund your gas money and he won't price the
coin at $0.25. He'll price it at $0.40.
If you buy a roll of 40, he might discount it to
$0.35, because his per-coin expenses go down. >>
Of course he'd WANT to sell me the quarter above face. But who's going to be dumb enough to buy that? And the dealer would have MS quarters on hand since they're very plentiful and an AU quarter would never even be discussed in your example transaction. Please find me a dealer anywhere who's received a phone call from someone wanting to buy an AU clad quarter. MS quarter perhaps.
Overhead doesn't create additional value to the coins being sold. Or are you saying that the coins sold by Littleton or the television shopping networks have a higher value because they have higher overheads? They sell at higher prices because they dupe people into believing the value of their prices. But their prices don't make the coins more valuable.
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i> have you done any research yourself ? This was easy to find in about 3 seconds: http://www.ebay.com/itm/13-modern-USA-coins-8-quarters-3-5-cents-2-dimes-1939-1998-/141765731676?hash=item2101e5655c >>
That is an auction from a seller in Great Britain to presumably another buyer in Great Britain. That's apples and oranges to selling circulated clad quarters IN THE USA for more than face on Ebay. >>
Nope it was on the us site but from Britain.
Did you take a look at other completed sales?
Quarters are actually worth less in Britain lol so um..... >>
You do not know where the buyer was from. I never said quarters are worth less in Britain. Actually, they'd likely be worth more in Britain because the supply is much less.
on average, for particular individual coins. It makes
no editorial commentary on value --- good, bad,
or indifferent. Some people love Morgan dollars and
value them dearly. Others find them boring and don't
value them so. Same for modern dollars, same for
classic commems, same for toned Buffalo nickels,
etc.
In order to keep your "value" for that quarter at a
zero-sum $0.25, would the dealer have to pay for
your gas and wear-and-tear on your truck to drive
to his shop?
<< <i>$1.25 looks to be the going rate. http://www.ebay.com/itm/1999-D-Georgia-50-States-Quarter-/281811009020?hash=item419d3ebdfc >>
Good example. I can live with that one as an example. But I'd still assert that that auction is the exception and not the rule. With any commodity in a fluid market, a range of prices do exist.
If I go to the bank and get rolls of quarters and pull out the lightly circulated 1999-present quarters, I believe I'm going to find it very difficult to sell more than a couple for above face.
some intriguing angles! I apologize for having to bow
out early --- it's past 11:00 p.m. here on the East Coast
and this coin collector needs to get some shut-eye.
I'll be online tomorrow. Have a good evening!
"Everything is on its way to somewhere. Everything." - George Malley, Phenomenon
http://www.american-legacy-coins.com
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i> have you done any research yourself ? This was easy to find in about 3 seconds: http://www.ebay.com/itm/13-modern-USA-coins-8-quarters-3-5-cents-2-dimes-1939-1998-/141765731676?hash=item2101e5655c >>
That is an auction from a seller in Great Britain to presumably another buyer in Great Britain. That's apples and oranges to selling circulated clad quarters IN THE USA for more than face on Ebay. >>
Nope it was on the us site but from Britain.
Did you take a look at other completed sales?
Quarters are actually worth less in Britain lol so um..... >>
You do not know where the buyer was from. I never said quarters are worth less in Britain. Actually, they'd likely be worth more in Britain because the supply is much less. >>
Your right the only thing I know is that the completed listing was from the U.S. site. As for AU quarters in Britain according to your argument they would have no value over 0.25 and most likely run through a money exchange. Why would someone in Britain buy an AU quarter for more than it's value?
If you don't perceive the value then so be it. What the prices are based on has already been stated, you can choose to accept that or not but I have no reason to think the information is false. Have a great one, outy.........
Am I to assume from your handle that you follow the Detroit Tigers? Maybe you do and maybe you don't. Perhaps you collect sportscards (I realize I'm making a leap here)
If you do then you probably realize that ballcards typically sell for half of the "price guide" (on a GOOD day)
You may or may not know that in philately (stamp collecting) the norm is to sell at one-third of "catalog" (their parlance for 'pricing guide')
The RedBook may not be perfect but it's a heck of lot more accurate than other collectible price guides. I am in no way associated with Whitman Publishing, but I feel like it is about the best $16 you can spend in this hobby (perhaps even better than your opportune find of SHQs @ FV)
www.brunkauctions.com
<< <i>The Red Book reports on prices that dealers charge,
on average, for particular individual coins. It makes
no editorial commentary on value --- good, bad,
or indifferent. Some people love Morgan dollars and
value them dearly. Others find them boring and don't
value them so. Same for modern dollars, same for
classic commems, same for toned Buffalo nickels,
etc.
In order to keep your "value" for that quarter at a
zero-sum $0.25, would the dealer have to pay for
your gas and wear-and-tear on your truck to drive
to his shop? >>
I understand what you're saying. And the dealer can put 1999-present quarters in 2x2s, put $0.50 price tags on them and put them in the window. And with the ability for the quarters to sit there indefinitely, perhaps a couple sell. But the MS quarters are so plentiful, he'll sell those and not AU ones.
I agree that value is relative. But ask the opinion of anyone who collects coins what the value is of a circulated clad quarter and I bet the answer is 100% face value. Sure, a dealer can put it in a 2x2, put it in his window at a higher price and someone may eventually may buy it. Littleton and the television shopping networks put very high prices on their coins and they sell those. But people "should" buy the coin and not the overhead.
This is my complaint with the Red Book, the PCGS Price Guide and NGC Price Guide... They're self-serving dealer ask prices. But average people buy the book or look at the websites and believe those are real prices. Their method of using dealer ask prices serves to push prices to be on the high side. Dealer ask doesn't necessarily equal value. But the way it's published implies that.
I'd love to see someone with excellent computer programming abilities to mine the data from EBay and create an online price guide from sold EBay auctions of PCGS and NGS coins, which are attributed by date, mintmark, denomination and grade. It would create a more realistic market price of coins than any of these books or website price guides. I expect that privately people have mined the EBay auction data to learn where there is arbitrage value.
You seem very much into 'value'.....what would you pay for such a service?
www.brunkauctions.com
<< <i>Your right the only thing I know is that the completed listing was from the U.S. site. As for AU quarters in Britain according to your argument they would have no value over 0.25 and most likely run through a money exchange. Why would someone in Britain buy an AU quarter for more than it's value?
If you don't perceive the value then so be it. What the prices are based on has already been stated, you can choose to accept that or not but I have no reason to think the information is false. Have a great one, outy......... >>
A person in Britain would buy an AU quarter for over face value because US coins are more scarce there. Someone who wants to collect US coins (even present day circulated ones) has limited options to acquire them. So above face is probably their usual choice.
Go to any coin show... Someone will be selling a tub of foreign coins for more than face value taking into account the exchange rate. If someone wants Finnish coins, Australian coins, Swiss coins, etc. They're going to cost more than face because there's limited supply because we're not in those countries.
<< <i>I've had calls to my shop inquiring about price and availability of 50 States and ATB quarter dollars. My standard response is that we only sell BU examples for $1.00 each. I've lost count of how many of these callers have asked if they could buy circulated examples from us cheaper. They don't care about condition, they just want to fill a slot in a folder for cheap, and they don't want to work too hard to find cheap. They deserve consideration in the market, but that is a niche that banks and retail merchants and acquaintances with coin change can serve better. >>
Thank you. Good example. Perhaps I've under-estimated the market for circulated state and ATB quarters. I guess people do want to fill that hole in their folder with minimal effort. But I still find it crazy that anyone would pay above face for a circulated clad coin.
<< <i>
<< <i>Your right the only thing I know is that the completed listing was from the U.S. site. As for AU quarters in Britain according to your argument they would have no value over 0.25 and most likely run through a money exchange. Why would someone in Britain buy an AU quarter for more than it's value?
If you don't perceive the value then so be it. What the prices are based on has already been stated, you can choose to accept that or not but I have no reason to think the information is false. Have a great one, outy......... >>
A person in Britain would buy an AU quarter for over face value because US coins are more scarce there. Someone who wants to collect US coins (even present day circulated ones) has limited options to acquire them. So above face is probably their usual choice.
Go to any coin show... Someone will be selling a tub of foreign coins for more than face value taking into account the exchange rate. If someone wants Finnish coins, Australian coins, Swiss coins, etc. They're going to cost more than face because there's limited supply because we're not in those countries. >>
I don't agree. Ebay is easy to use and in most any country you can use ebay. why would someone pay more for a circulated coin if they so rarely sell for more than face as you have stated? You are going against your own argument.
<< <i>TigersFan2,
Am I to assume from your handle that you follow the Detroit Tigers? Maybe you do and maybe you don't. Perhaps you collect sportscards (I realize I'm making a leap here)
If you do then you probably realize that ballcards typically sell for half of the "price guide" (on a GOOD day)
You may or may not know that in philately (stamp collecting) the norm is to sell at one-third of "catalog" (their parlance for 'pricing guide')
The RedBook may not be perfect but it's a heck of lot more accurate than other collectible price guides. I am in no way associated with Whitman Publishing, but I feel like it is about the best $16 you can spend in this hobby (perhaps even better than your opportune find of SHQs @ FV) >>
Yes, Detroit Tigers. Yes, I know the sportscard market has been in the toilet for many years from the craziness of the late 1980s. Yes, price guides tend to be dealer-centric to try to keep prices high rather than report on what the market currently is trading the item.
www.brunkauctions.com
<< <i>>>I'd love to see someone with excellent computer programming abilities to mine the data from EBay and create an online price guide from sold EBay auctions of PCGS and NGS coins, which are attributed by date, mintmark, denomination and grade. It would create a more realistic market price of coins than any of these books or website price guides. I expect that privately people have mined the EBay auction data to learn where there is arbitrage value. >>
You seem very much into 'value'.....what would you pay for such a service? >>
If you're meaning a subscription service of that information, perhaps. How much would I pay for that information? If that service is available showing the market prices of PCGS coins by denomination/date/mm/grade and I could trust the service, I'd need to examine what my coin purchasing budget is and estimate how much I'm paying too much for a coin because I haven't adequately valued the market for that coin.
The very first PCGS coin I purchased on Ebay was an MS63 Morgan dollar that I paid $61 as it listed on the PCGS price guide at $65. I thought I got a good deal. But then I started realizing by looking at sold auctions of common date Morgans that I really paid too much. I studied what prices common date Morgans sell for and realized that although the PCGS price guide (MS63) says $65 (then), most are available for under $55 with some patience. And I've bought a few MS63 common-date Morgans in the $45-50 range with a lot of patience. But it takes time to realize the market from the price guides.
<< <i>I don't agree. Ebay is easy to use and in most any country you can use ebay. why would someone pay more for a circulated coin if they so rarely sell for more than face as you have stated? You are going against your own argument. >>
No. My argument is bounded by circulated US coins being sold in the US. US coins outside the US or foreign coins in the US and it's a completely different supply/demand dynamic. Please stop twisting my words into statements I haven't said.
<< <i>I suppose my point was that if guides do seem a bit high, it could be worse >>
Yes, it could be worse. And I expect that the Red Book must be ready for publishing months before it's actually sold, so the potential to have the gold/silver market shift significantly is great. Every 5 years or so I buy a Red Book for the information about the coins, having everything in one book and never for the prices. Ebay does a very good job at providing current prices with a little effort.
And of course this is done with no effort (on EBay's part) as it is merely a byproduct of another service they are providing
www.brunkauctions.com
<< <i>>> Ebay does a very good job at providing current prices with a little effort. >>
And of course this is done with no effort (on EBay's part) as it is merely a byproduct of another service they are providing >>
I messed up the order of my words to mess up the meaning. The "with a little effort" was meant to refer to applying my effort to get the current prices. The sentence should have read, "Ebay does a very good job at providing current prices with a little of my effort."
Maybe crazy to you & I but maybe not to the east coast hole filler who has looked high & low for that D-mint Wyoming and finds that he can buy a nice AU example for 40-50 cents at his LCS.
HH
1947-P & D; 1948-D; 1949-P & S; 1950-D & S; and 1952-S.
Any help locating any of these OBW rolls would be gratefully appreciated!
I think the Red Book's pricing is pretty accurate for retail prices overall.
I use one quite regularly.
My YouTube Channel
The Red book is a "guide", and that's all, and it serves that purpose well.
<< <i>The Red Book doesn't comment on value; it reports
on prices that coin dealers charge, on average, for particular
coins.
A buyer might not value the staples and other overhead,
but the dealer still needs to set a price. >>
A lot of people do not comprehend that it takes time to sell each coin and that time is money. When I was at Harlan Berk's I used to try to get a BU roll of each new issue, pick out some nice ones and take them home to have my wife card them up. I would write them up on the train into work and price them cheap as a courtesy to collectors, and we probably lost money on them but that is what a full-service coin shop does.
TD
"Redbook pricing of low-end coins"
or something like that.
TD
Disclosure: I have been a contributor to the Redbook on technical issues and other things for about 40 years, but I don't do pricing.
clearly
Liberty: Parent of Science & Industry
<< <i>Note to OP: Please consider changing the title of the thread to something neutral like:
"Redbook pricing of low-end coins"
or something like that.
>>
That would be a wonderful courtesy! Thank you for suggesting it, Captain. "Nutty"
does seem a bit mean-spirited and inflammatory.
And also for disclosure: I'm Whitman's publisher, I've been a coin collector since
I was about seven years old, and I still have my very first Red Book!
<< <i>I bought the 2016 Red Book for my nephew and am looking through it. From what planet do they pull some of these prices for modern coins? Here are a couple of examples...
America the Beautiful Quarters: $0.40 to $0.50 in AU50. If I go down to the bank and get rolls of quarters and pull out the nicer America the Beautiful ones, someone will pay me 2x face? Sounds like a get-rich-quick scheme. I just need to find the sucker.
Eisenhower Dollars: $2 in EF40. I've seen dealers with buckets full of these at coin shows who can't give them away at $1.25 each.
Anyway, my nephew will be encouraged by the high values of clad coinage. >>
Red Book prices have never reflected actual coin prices except by accident.
It's been that way ever since I can remember and I'm old!
<< <i>The Red Book doesn't comment on value; it reports
on prices that coin dealers charge, on average, for particular
coins.
A buyer might not value the staples and other overhead,
but the dealer still needs to set a price. >>
thus making a profit
I guess this thread could be many other topics also...
* The value of coins vs. the price of coins.
* Overhead to sell a coin vs. the value of the coin.
* Value of the coin vs. the target audience to buy the coin.
* Dealer ask price of a coin vs. market realized price of a coin.
Anyway, this thread has expanded greatly since I went to bed last night. I haven't read through the additional comments.
Last night when I posted it, I really got fired up over it. I believe strongly that the value of a coin is determined by the market and not by a dealer's ask price or a dealer's overhead. That's why I love EBay... It's a huge, transparent marketplace of actual coin transactions that brings buyer and sellers together without the need for a dealer "middleman." It's effectively brought a democracy to numismatics where everyone can buy and sell coins equally without the need for an aristocracy. Of course, the elite coins still are best handled by the professionals as I don't think I'd want to sell a $10,000 coin on Ebay... not the right target audience of buyers.
<< <i>The Red Book isn't a wholesale ("buy") listing. It shows retail prices that a coin
dealer would charge you on average for a particular coin.
If you go to your bank and buy rolls of ATB quarters, pick out the nicer ones, open
a coin shop, staple the quarters into 2x2 holders, write the price on them, put them
out on display, pay your rent and utilities, and want to put some bread on your
table, then yes, charging a collector $0.40 for that coin seems reasonable. >>
If I argued with Red Book priing for clads "too low" certainly wouldn't be the issue.
For instance my 58th edition lists a Gem 1983-P quarter as being worth $40. At that time the wholesale
price for BU rolls was over $40!!! This is despite the fact that true Gems of some of these coins may not
exist at all!!! I've never seen a 1982-P quarter in true Gem even after advertising widely to pay $40 each
all through the 1990's. I paid Gem prices for a very few but they were not full Gems if you define the term
as a coin well struck from good dies with very little marking. They simply were not well struck and very few
dies were in both good condition and properly set. This coin which probably doesn't exist in Gem lists at $15.
It's the same across the board. A 1969 quarter which is attractive is scarce in any condition at all and an attrac-
tive XF is quite scarce (fewer than 100 exist)and it lists for face value and $5 in Gem.
People don't collect moderns because they are percieved to be common and much of the reason they are per-
cieved as common is the low valuations. Of course the near total lack of demand is the chief reason. It's worse
with world moderns because most just list for a dollar or two until that particular market gets a little demand and
the price shoots up as much as 40,000%. Before that demand causes the change in price there are people trying
to buy the coin but they can't find them. It's the same with the '69 quarter; people are looking but they don't know
they won't find them because the guides imply they are as common as the junk everyone thinks they are.
This situation can not persist indefinitely because the supply is continuing to decrease at more than 3% annually
and there is continually increasing demand. Much of the reason the supply is decreasing at a breakneck pace is that
the guides suggest the coins are common so they get spent and worn out or lost in circulation.
When it comes to moderns and condition rarity, what you're really paying for is the time and money it took someone (or countless someones) to search roll upon roll of BU coins, pick out the nicest few hundred, and submit them for grading, all the while hoping to "make" one or two top pop coins.
The price is determined by supply and demand, on average, over long periods. Short term promotions, fads, uncertainty about scarcity and extant populations, liquidity, and loads of other things muddy the waters.
Could you do it yourself? Sure, but if you're trying to "make" a top-pop Ike or find a 1955 double-die, you better have loads of time, a good source of coins, a comfortable chair, and good eyes. Dumb luck helps sometimes too.
It's not really any different for common material, or slightly uncommon material.