The issue is that Ebay has complaints and "not as described" complaints handled by computer algorithms and not an intelligent person looking at the auction listing vs. the buyer's complaint and making a reasonable judgment. If they had a person with a basic understanding of coins and currency who could spend 60 seconds looking at the auction and looking at the buyer's complaint, much more reasonable outcomes would occur. Currently, a seller can have a dozen pictures, spend paragraphs describing the item, yet if a buyer says "not as described," Ebay will rule in the buyer's side.
Given there are LOTS of coin auctions that are poorly photographed and poorly described and very deserving of "not as described" returns. But those should be possible for an acutal human to discern and rule in the buyer's favor from PCGS/NGC coins that are well photographed having buyer's making the same claim.
One thing that was far more common in the past but less so now... People list a coin and state, "I'm not a coin expert..." as a way to claim no responsibility. But not knowing anything about coins isn't a license for using poor photos and not describing it at all.
Back in the spring I toyed with the idea of buying raw coins on Ebay and if the coin received is cleaned or damaged and not disclosed in the auction listing, I would file a "not as described" case and return at no cost to me. I decided against doing this because (1) I realized I'd be returning a lot, (2) It would be a hassle, and (3) I don't know if Ebay counts returns by a buyer towards a suspension for misuse of the site.
Concerning auctions with poor photos... How come sellers can't figure out that if they don't have a good camera to photograph their raw coin, just put it on the scanner.
<< <i>The issue is that Ebay has complaints and "not as described" complaints handled by computer algorithms and not an intelligent person looking at the auction listing vs. the buyer's complaint and making a reasonable judgment. If they had a person with a basic understanding of coins and currency who could spend 60 seconds looking at the auction and looking at the buyer's complaint, much more reasonable outcomes would occur. Currently, a seller can have a dozen pictures, spend paragraphs describing the item, yet if a buyer says "not as described," Ebay will rule in the buyer's side. >>
That's a very good point.However,ebay would have to do that with virtually everything that gets listed.They won't spend the kind of money it would take to hire an expert from every category they offer to handle that.Your suggestion is a great one,but ebay will never do it.
<< <i>The issue is that Ebay has complaints and "not as described" complaints handled by computer algorithms and not an intelligent person looking at the auction listing vs. the buyer's complaint and making a reasonable judgment. If they had a person with a basic understanding of coins and currency who could spend 60 seconds looking at the auction and looking at the buyer's complaint, much more reasonable outcomes would occur. Currently, a seller can have a dozen pictures, spend paragraphs describing the item, yet if a buyer says "not as described," Ebay will rule in the buyer's side. >>
That's a very good point.However,ebay would have to do that with virtually everything that gets listed.They won't spend the kind of money it would take to hire an expert from every category they offer to handle that.Your suggestion is a great one,but ebay will never do it. >>
Until a couple of years ago, Ebay had on the payroll 7 experienced coin people whose job was to look through auction listings and flag for removal any that were grossly misleading or questionable/counterfeit items. A couple of years ago, EBay changed their business plan and let go these experienced coin people and the associated oversight of the coin auctions. Ebay's reasoning is that they decided their business plan is to bring buyers and sellers together and not get involved with the quality of the items. I expect they decided this was a business plan that freed them up from potential liabilities if buyers still got ripped off from phony items. And you can see how this philosophy extends to their conflict resolution... They throw it back at the seller to resolve the issue or lose. They don't get involved in mediating buyer-seller disputes.
<< <i>Until a couple of years ago, Ebay had on the payroll 7 experienced coin people whose job was to look through auction listings and flag for removal any that were grossly misleading or questionable/counterfeit items. A couple of years ago, EBay changed their business plan and let go these experienced coin people and the associated oversight of the coin auctions. Ebay's reasoning is that they decided their business plan is to bring buyers and sellers together and not get involved with the quality of the items. I expect they decided this was a business plan that freed them up from potential liabilities if buyers still got ripped off from phony items. And you can see how this philosophy extends to their conflict resolution... They throw it back at the seller to resolve the issue or lose. They don't get involved in mediating buyer-seller disputes. >>
That I did not know.I'm not a coin buyer on there and aren't familiar with their past system.I would agree that removing that idea would free up being liable for anything.I still think to reinstate that procedure,they would have to do it for the entire range of items.It costs less to have a computer do it randomly.I do agree with you in having something like that put back in place,though!
I remember seeing better stories on this a year or so ago in which Ebay made statements that their job was to bring buyers and sellers together, not get involved in the authenticity/quality of the items.
<< <i>I had the same problem selling electronics. eBay buyers would swap out their broken LCD parts for my cameras working parts then claim I'd sold a defective camera. Buyers win every time. >>
This example reminds me of a lady I know who operates a local antique shop. She sold on Ebay an antique working clock. Buyer returned it citing was not operational. Turns out the buyer swapped out a few parts from their clock with the sellers clock.
Successful transactions:Tookybandit. "Everyone is equal, some are more equal than others".
<< <i>The issue is that Ebay has complaints and "not as described" complaints handled by computer algorithms and not an intelligent person looking at the auction listing vs. the buyer's complaint and making a reasonable judgment. If they had a person with a basic understanding of coins and currency who could spend 60 seconds looking at the auction and looking at the buyer's complaint, much more reasonable outcomes would occur. Currently, a seller can have a dozen pictures, spend paragraphs describing the item, yet if a buyer says "not as described," Ebay will rule in the buyer's side. >>
That's a very good point.However,ebay would have to do that with virtually everything that gets listed.They won't spend the kind of money it would take to hire an expert from every category they offer to handle that.Your suggestion is a great one,but ebay will never do it. >>
Until a couple of years ago, Ebay had on the payroll 7 experienced coin people whose job was to look through auction listings and flag for removal any that were grossly misleading or questionable/counterfeit items. A couple of years ago, EBay changed their business plan and let go these experienced coin people and the associated oversight of the coin auctions. Ebay's reasoning is that they decided their business plan is to bring buyers and sellers together and not get involved with the quality of the items. I expect they decided this was a business plan that freed them up from potential liabilities if buyers still got ripped off from phony items. And you can see how this philosophy extends to their conflict resolution... They throw it back at the seller to resolve the issue or lose. They don't get involved in mediating buyer-seller disputes. >>
I seriously don't understand why people are having the problem that they are having. What is being done wrong so consistently. I sold a PLC (automation control unit) as a for parts only and something happened with the way the system listed my item. When it sold it did not state no returns for parts only as the system is automated to do. the customer wanted a return because of a nonworking part. i refused and the buyer left a neg. I then called ebay the resolved by paying for the refund and removing the neg from my account. The then apologized to me and said thank you for being a quality seller. I can not be the only person selling on ebay that does not have constant problems as I see other sellers with 100% feedback. Is it just that people don't want to take the proper steeps to resolve a problem that is not caused by them but the buyer?
A better solution is to keep selling there - but just raise your prices.
Only list no reserve auctions for cheap junk coins that are deserving of eBay and use a starting price you make a profit on or list with BIN for the rest.
Your sales would decrease, but so will eBay's fees. Any returns will be covered by your new prices.
<< <i>I had the same problem selling electronics. eBay buyers would swap out their broken LCD parts for my cameras working parts then claim I'd sold a defective camera. Buyers win every time. >>
This example reminds me of a lady I know who operates a local antique shop. She sold on Ebay an antique working clock. Buyer returned it citing was not operational. Turns out the buyer swapped out a few parts from their clock with the sellers clock. >>
One thing I always do is to take images of the item working if it is used, inside and out or list it for parts only if it is electronics. If you have the right images of your items when the customer makes a SNAD case the rep can ask for images taken from the same angles as the reference images to compare. I had a HP spectrum analyzer that had a very expensive lightbulb in it (685.00 new) and the buyer tried the switch out the bulb trick. Well you need special software to run the unit which I have and the buyer did not along with the fact that they actually showed a completely different bulb in their images. I won that case also.
This all being said when I sell something with a return privileged I clearly state what I will accept and charge a restocking fee. If I get stuck paying shipping I still get the restocking fee and it is equal to the shipping cost. Give it a try as it limits window shoppers.
I have to read into the new automated return privileged option. If you can still have a restocking fee while using the new system most customers who use that system do not read the full listing. This could again make sure that you are not loosing any money on returns as it would automatically deduct the restocking fee as the return is not a SNAD case and the refund would show all this but be properly done. Time to do more reading and possibly some more phone calls to ebay. Remember you get much better service when you call in using the cancel account line as those people are supposed to keep you as a seller/buyer.
<< <i>Same here. No matter how much detail you put in, some folks just don't get it. I sold a sealed box of 2 Ike coin and chronicles sets last week. The buyer said he was returning it because of the poor quality of the coins (not as described), in the sealed box. He said I should call the mint and they need to make it up to me!
It will begin dealing with this >>
And of course eBay will side with the buyer in a dispute over this kind of situation.
It costs a lot less to do nothing. And the costs for doing something are hardly worth it. So, in that regard, I can relate. But doing something is better than doing nothing.
eBay changed their 'model' years ago. They felt they needed to compete with Amazon for world domination...
as a seller, that meant less views and more 'losses' for true auction as a buyer that meant many overpriced items and less 'bargains'
buyers started going away and eBay decided it was because of 'bad sellers or experiences' like negative feedback -THIS BUYER IS THE WORST BEWARE sellers changed their model to 24 hr storefront with guaranteed margins on sales
it is best to assimilate or quit
PS - some buyers have turned their buying experience into approval service
It's easy to confuse perceptions with facts. Anyway, my perception is for coins on EBay, a greater percentage are now BIN than 5 years ago or 20 years ago when it seemed like straight auctions were much more common. More BIN auctions does give EBay much more the feel of becoming an Amazon than it's original focus of being an online garage sale of auctions. Corporations with market caps of over a billion dollars are now common place on EBay. That wasn't once the case.
I don't think I've seen the answer to this: I'm all for more BST, and feel ebay has become a necessary evil, like I'm reading others' opinions here, but is there a way to have an auction on BST? Related to this is how does one price a coin or collection? Certainly in setting a price we would have to concede the PCGS slabs would get a premium, but what about the others? I don't have a well-formulated opinion on any of this, but would like info. Does PCGS function as moderator, or would they have a hands-off policy (if they don't already?).
"If someone says 'A penny for your thoughts' and you give them your 2 cents worth, what happens to the extra penny?" G.Carlin
<< <i>and feel ebay has become a necessary evil >>
I guess I don't understand why Ebay is considered a "necessary evil." It's optional and everyone who uses it does so voluntarily. The Ebay rules are well stated and the website does work well and consistent with their rules. Sure there are things each of us doesn't like about it, but we weigh the benefits with the bad and use it accordingly.
As someone who is primarily a buyer, I love Ebay as it provides a very large and transparent market in that it's very easy to value what a coin is worth by what it's selling for. If I want to buy a particular date/mm Morgan Dollar, I can search sold auctions and get a much better picture of what it sells for, much better than the PCGS Price Guide or any other price guide. Ebay makes a lot in the coin collecting hobby transparent. And Ebay is far better for buyers and sellers than 10-15 years ago with pretty much the entire transaction occurring within Ebay.
I am in lockstep with Tigersfan on all his posts here. I am a collector first and a vest pocket dealer second. My main biz is in the Commercial services industry. I have all sorts of seemingly unfair "costs of doing business". eBay has very few. I agree with the SNAD issue, but unless you get returns on many, many items (which means you are probably doing something wrong anyway), it is an inconsequential expense overall.
As a tangent, I think sellers of any size let their ego's regarding a neg foul up their overall perception and enjoyment of selling on eBay. I caught myself getting upset at my first neg a few weeks ago and had to make myself put it in perspective of what it is...nothing personal (even if it is worded personally). If 99% of your material is selling just fine then all is well and don't get worked up about a neg or two.
Comments
Given there are LOTS of coin auctions that are poorly photographed and poorly described and very deserving of "not as described" returns. But those should be possible for an acutal human to discern and rule in the buyer's favor from PCGS/NGC coins that are well photographed having buyer's making the same claim.
One thing that was far more common in the past but less so now... People list a coin and state, "I'm not a coin expert..." as a way to claim no responsibility. But not knowing anything about coins isn't a license for using poor photos and not describing it at all.
Back in the spring I toyed with the idea of buying raw coins on Ebay and if the coin received is cleaned or damaged and not disclosed in the auction listing, I would file a "not as described" case and return at no cost to me. I decided against doing this because (1) I realized I'd be returning a lot, (2) It would be a hassle, and (3) I don't know if Ebay counts returns by a buyer towards a suspension for misuse of the site.
Concerning auctions with poor photos... How come sellers can't figure out that if they don't have a good camera to photograph their raw coin, just put it on the scanner.
<< <i>The issue is that Ebay has complaints and "not as described" complaints handled by computer algorithms and not an intelligent person looking at the auction listing vs. the buyer's complaint and making a reasonable judgment. If they had a person with a basic understanding of coins and currency who could spend 60 seconds looking at the auction and looking at the buyer's complaint, much more reasonable outcomes would occur. Currently, a seller can have a dozen pictures, spend paragraphs describing the item, yet if a buyer says "not as described," Ebay will rule in the buyer's side. >>
That's a very good point.However,ebay would have to do that with virtually everything that gets listed.They won't spend the kind of money it would take to hire an expert from every category they offer to handle that.Your suggestion is a great one,but ebay will never do it.
<< <i>
<< <i>The issue is that Ebay has complaints and "not as described" complaints handled by computer algorithms and not an intelligent person looking at the auction listing vs. the buyer's complaint and making a reasonable judgment. If they had a person with a basic understanding of coins and currency who could spend 60 seconds looking at the auction and looking at the buyer's complaint, much more reasonable outcomes would occur. Currently, a seller can have a dozen pictures, spend paragraphs describing the item, yet if a buyer says "not as described," Ebay will rule in the buyer's side. >>
That's a very good point.However,ebay would have to do that with virtually everything that gets listed.They won't spend the kind of money it would take to hire an expert from every category they offer to handle that.Your suggestion is a great one,but ebay will never do it. >>
Until a couple of years ago, Ebay had on the payroll 7 experienced coin people whose job was to look through auction listings and flag for removal any that were grossly misleading or questionable/counterfeit items. A couple of years ago, EBay changed their business plan and let go these experienced coin people and the associated oversight of the coin auctions. Ebay's reasoning is that they decided their business plan is to bring buyers and sellers together and not get involved with the quality of the items. I expect they decided this was a business plan that freed them up from potential liabilities if buyers still got ripped off from phony items. And you can see how this philosophy extends to their conflict resolution... They throw it back at the seller to resolve the issue or lose. They don't get involved in mediating buyer-seller disputes.
<< <i>Until a couple of years ago, Ebay had on the payroll 7 experienced coin people whose job was to look through auction listings and flag for removal any that were grossly misleading or questionable/counterfeit items. A couple of years ago, EBay changed their business plan and let go these experienced coin people and the associated oversight of the coin auctions. Ebay's reasoning is that they decided their business plan is to bring buyers and sellers together and not get involved with the quality of the items. I expect they decided this was a business plan that freed them up from potential liabilities if buyers still got ripped off from phony items. And you can see how this philosophy extends to their conflict resolution... They throw it back at the seller to resolve the issue or lose. They don't get involved in mediating buyer-seller disputes. >>
That I did not know.I'm not a coin buyer on there and aren't familiar with their past system.I would agree that removing that idea would free up being liable for anything.I still think to reinstate that procedure,they would have to do it for the entire range of items.It costs less to have a computer do it randomly.I do agree with you in having something like that put back in place,though!
Ebay Scales Back - Story
I remember seeing better stories on this a year or so ago in which Ebay made statements that their job was to bring buyers and sellers together, not get involved in the authenticity/quality of the items.
<< <i>I had the same problem selling electronics. eBay buyers would swap out their broken LCD parts for my cameras working parts then claim I'd sold a defective camera. Buyers win every time. >>
This example reminds me of a lady I know who operates a local antique shop. She sold on Ebay an antique working clock. Buyer returned it citing was not operational. Turns out the buyer swapped out a few parts from their clock with the sellers clock.
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>The issue is that Ebay has complaints and "not as described" complaints handled by computer algorithms and not an intelligent person looking at the auction listing vs. the buyer's complaint and making a reasonable judgment. If they had a person with a basic understanding of coins and currency who could spend 60 seconds looking at the auction and looking at the buyer's complaint, much more reasonable outcomes would occur. Currently, a seller can have a dozen pictures, spend paragraphs describing the item, yet if a buyer says "not as described," Ebay will rule in the buyer's side. >>
That's a very good point.However,ebay would have to do that with virtually everything that gets listed.They won't spend the kind of money it would take to hire an expert from every category they offer to handle that.Your suggestion is a great one,but ebay will never do it. >>
Until a couple of years ago, Ebay had on the payroll 7 experienced coin people whose job was to look through auction listings and flag for removal any that were grossly misleading or questionable/counterfeit items. A couple of years ago, EBay changed their business plan and let go these experienced coin people and the associated oversight of the coin auctions. Ebay's reasoning is that they decided their business plan is to bring buyers and sellers together and not get involved with the quality of the items. I expect they decided this was a business plan that freed them up from potential liabilities if buyers still got ripped off from phony items. And you can see how this philosophy extends to their conflict resolution... They throw it back at the seller to resolve the issue or lose. They don't get involved in mediating buyer-seller disputes. >>
I seriously don't understand why people are having the problem that they are having. What is being done wrong so consistently. I sold a PLC (automation control unit) as a for parts only and something happened with the way the system listed my item. When it sold it did not state no returns for parts only as the system is automated to do. the customer wanted a return because of a nonworking part. i refused and the buyer left a neg. I then called ebay the resolved by paying for the refund and removing the neg from my account. The then apologized to me and said thank you for being a quality seller. I can not be the only person selling on ebay that does not have constant problems as I see other sellers with 100% feedback.
Is it just that people don't want to take the proper steeps to resolve a problem that is not caused by them but the buyer?
Only list no reserve auctions for cheap junk coins that are deserving of eBay and use a starting price you make a profit on or list with BIN for the rest.
Your sales would decrease, but so will eBay's fees. Any returns will be covered by your new prices.
<< <i>
<< <i>I had the same problem selling electronics. eBay buyers would swap out their broken LCD parts for my cameras working parts then claim I'd sold a defective camera. Buyers win every time. >>
This example reminds me of a lady I know who operates a local antique shop. She sold on Ebay an antique working clock. Buyer returned it citing was not operational. Turns out the buyer swapped out a few parts from their clock with the sellers clock. >>
One thing I always do is to take images of the item working if it is used, inside and out or list it for parts only if it is electronics. If you have the right images of your items when the customer makes a SNAD case the rep can ask for images taken from the same angles as the reference images to compare. I had a HP spectrum analyzer that had a very expensive lightbulb in it (685.00 new) and the buyer tried the switch out the bulb trick. Well you need special software to run the unit which I have and the buyer did not along with the fact that they actually showed a completely different bulb in their images. I won that case also.
This all being said when I sell something with a return privileged I clearly state what I will accept and charge a restocking fee. If I get stuck paying shipping I still get the restocking fee and it is equal to the shipping cost. Give it a try as it limits window shoppers.
Coin Club Benefit auctions ..... View the Lots
<< <i>I just read a major sellers neutral and negative feedback... Guys sells 4-5 figure coins on average.
All poor feedback was on coins priced $4.00 to $24.00
That would make sense. Those who buy the more expensive materials are usually more likely to know what they are actually doing.
<< <i>Same here. No matter how much detail you put in, some folks just don't get it. I sold a sealed box of 2 Ike coin and chronicles sets last week. The buyer said he was returning it because of the poor quality of the coins (not as described), in the sealed box. He said I should call the mint and they need to make it up to me!
It will begin dealing with this >>
And of course eBay will side with the buyer in a dispute over this kind of situation.
<< <i>SELL MORE STUFF ON THE BST!!!!! >>
Amen brother!
Seriously I don't even look at coins on eBay anymore. I still use eBay very occasionally for my other hobby - model railroading.
And the costs for doing something are hardly worth it. So, in that regard, I can relate.
But doing something is better than doing nothing.
``https://ebay.us/m/KxolR5
as a seller, that meant less views and more 'losses' for true auction
as a buyer that meant many overpriced items and less 'bargains'
buyers started going away and eBay decided it was because of 'bad sellers or experiences' like negative feedback -THIS BUYER IS THE WORST BEWARE
sellers changed their model to 24 hr storefront with guaranteed margins on sales
it is best to assimilate or quit
PS - some buyers have turned their buying experience into approval service
<< <i>The late 1990's were my most profitable years on ebay. Those were good times. >>
Continued into the early 2000s.
Back then, losing bidders emails / contact info were available to harvest, contact, sell to outside the system. Those were the days.
<< <i>The late 1990's were my most profitable years on ebay. Those were good times. >>
The most money I ever made with eBay was in 2008 by selling their stock short.
<< <i>and feel ebay has become a necessary evil >>
I guess I don't understand why Ebay is considered a "necessary evil." It's optional and everyone who uses it does so voluntarily. The Ebay rules are well stated and the website does work well and consistent with their rules. Sure there are things each of us doesn't like about it, but we weigh the benefits with the bad and use it accordingly.
As someone who is primarily a buyer, I love Ebay as it provides a very large and transparent market in that it's very easy to value what a coin is worth by what it's selling for. If I want to buy a particular date/mm Morgan Dollar, I can search sold auctions and get a much better picture of what it sells for, much better than the PCGS Price Guide or any other price guide. Ebay makes a lot in the coin collecting hobby transparent. And Ebay is far better for buyers and sellers than 10-15 years ago with pretty much the entire transaction occurring within Ebay.
As a tangent, I think sellers of any size let their ego's regarding a neg foul up their overall perception and enjoyment of selling on eBay. I caught myself getting upset at my first neg a few weeks ago and had to make myself put it in perspective of what it is...nothing personal (even if it is worded personally). If 99% of your material is selling just fine then all is well and don't get worked up about a neg or two.
JMHO.
Doug