Does the Tomkins book on Early Half Dollars spell the end of Overton numbers?
EagleEye
Posts: 7,677 ✭✭✭✭✭
I got my copy of Steve Tompkins' book (Volume 1) on Early Half Dollars 1794-1807 at the show. It is a wonderful book with great pictures, enormous amounts of background information on die manufacture and emission sequence.
Attributing early half dollars should be real easy with this book as all the die pictures are side-by-side. I look forward to the coming volumes.
Having a condition census with actual images of the coins is a wonderful addition and also makes the book very useful.
In the Introduction, Steve attests that a fresh approach is needed in renumbering the die pairs to "T" numbers and getting away from the "O" Overton numbering system. The reason is the "T" numbers are in as (well as can be determined) emission order. Will this happen? Overton numbers are firmly entrenched. Will the collecting community adopt the "T" numbers.
My feeling is that, like the Early dollars (with "B" and "BB" numbers) we will now be listing both "O" and "T" numbers when attributing early half dollars.
What do you think?
Attributing early half dollars should be real easy with this book as all the die pictures are side-by-side. I look forward to the coming volumes.
Having a condition census with actual images of the coins is a wonderful addition and also makes the book very useful.
In the Introduction, Steve attests that a fresh approach is needed in renumbering the die pairs to "T" numbers and getting away from the "O" Overton numbering system. The reason is the "T" numbers are in as (well as can be determined) emission order. Will this happen? Overton numbers are firmly entrenched. Will the collecting community adopt the "T" numbers.
My feeling is that, like the Early dollars (with "B" and "BB" numbers) we will now be listing both "O" and "T" numbers when attributing early half dollars.
What do you think?
Rick Snow, Eagle Eye Rare Coins, Inc.Check out my new web site:
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Comments
There is a Tompkins-to-Overton conversion chart in the introductory chapters, about 30 pages in. If you want to reference it often, you have to search for it. It would probably be handy to copy out the two conversion charts and have them on separate pages for easy reference.
edited to add: There is also a conversion chart in the back of the book to all editions of Overton, Beistle and Haseltine. My favorite part is the tirade that Paul Munson goes into in a letter to Richard Picker on how bad the works prior to 1964 were. "I would like to someday see all U.S. silver coins 1794-1807 covered in the depth and detail apparent in Penny Whimsy."
That is now accomplished, and more.
What is the format of the new "T" numbering system?
For example, what Thompson variety is this?
Can we tell the emission sequence from the two sides, or do we need to see the third side (edge) to determine?
Liberty: Parent of Science & Industry
<< <i>Congrats on the new book! Looking forward to getting one.
What is the format of the new "T" numbering system?
For example, what Thompson variety is this?
Can we tell the emission sequence from the two sides, or do we need to see the third side (edge) to determine? >>
Thanks Baley! (it is Tompkins tho...)
Your coin is listed as T-10 (Overton 115), and is listed as the discovery piece, although I used the other VF as my plate coin.
The format is the actual emission sequence or the order in which each die marriage was struck. You do not need to determine anything as to emission sequence, because it is already done!
QN
Go to Early United States Coins - to order the New "Early United States Half Dollar Vol. 1 / 1794-1807" book or the 1st new Bust Quarter book!
However, I believe with a better more accurate and up to date reference; eventually it will supplant the previous work. Case in point...the early half dimes. Once the Logan / McCloskey (LM) book was available, all but the most diehard of Valentine fans (yes you Mr. halfdime!), embraced the new numbering system.
As new collectors of the half dollars enter the fray, they will naturally use the newest book and will learn the numbering system of that book. Only the older collectors will cling to the more familiar Overton numbers. Frankly, I even have a hard yet using the new numbers without thinking of the Overton number first.
Add in the hundreds of thousands of slabs with the Overton numbers already on them, and it will be a long transition, with both numbers being listed alongside each other.
Check out the half dollars coming up in the next Long Beach sale...it has already started.
QN
Go to Early United States Coins - to order the New "Early United States Half Dollar Vol. 1 / 1794-1807" book or the 1st new Bust Quarter book!
So, to follow up, is the T numbering system based on the mint's emission order, or the order the coins were discovered/described?
Liberty: Parent of Science & Industry
<< <i>Thanks QN!
So, to follow up, is the T numbering system based on the mint's emission order, or the order the coins were discovered/described? >>
The emission sequence in which they were minted.
I did try to list the dates and discoverer's of the marriages for the last 25 years in the comments section for each of those marriages.
QN
Go to Early United States Coins - to order the New "Early United States Half Dollar Vol. 1 / 1794-1807" book or the 1st new Bust Quarter book!
<< <i>I can't comment on Tomkins book but QDB just added his own numbering system to HTT's in his new book. When you've learned not just Low's but also Rulau's which are just 1-3 digits and then someone comes along with brand new lengthy designation codes such as "W-NY-680-10a" it makes the book beyond the history portion pretty much useless. >>
Not another set of Hard Times Numbers.
Since my interest in the series goes to zero once you get past the varieties with political messages, I guess it does not affect me that much.
<< <i>The emission sequence in which they were minted. >>
To teach something to a dummy, how in the world do you know with with 100% certainty the order of which they were minted?
Too many positive BST transactions with too many members to list.
<< <i>
<< <i>The emission sequence in which they were minted. >>
To teach something to a dummy, how in the world do you know with with 100% certainty the order of which they were minted? >>
You don't, but researchers use the timing of the laws that were in place, and then they look at the known die varieties and die states. A die with few or no cracks was used before one which has more or a lot of cracks.
You can use the date on the coin too, but that's not always a slam dunk either. Sometimes a coin that has a later date has a reverse die that was used BEFORE it was used with a coin with an earlier date. The first mint was supposed to discard outdated dies, but that did not always happen. This is how it was determined that SOME 1795 half dimes were struck before the 1794s. It also showed that all of the 1794s were struck in 1795.
Confused?
This is how researchers try to establish emission sequences.
Liberty: Parent of Science & Industry
100 times more useful, with great (color!) photos. It is sure to be a huge success.
does it have info foe the blank/doubled edges on cbh?
i saw an 1836 o-105(i think) with wide spread doubled edge lettering with same position orintation. pretty cool. woulda bought it but wasn't sure about value in rough low vf.
.
That's why we still say something is 1 foot instead of 0.3048 meters.
Though we have come to accept the 2-liter bottle of Pepsi.
<< <i>
<< <i>The emission sequence in which they were minted. >>
To teach something to a dummy, how in the world do you know with with 100% certainty the order of which they were minted? >>
No offense to Mr. Jones, but there are several statements that are incorrect in what he posted.
Let's go over the criteria that one should use to determine a correct emission sequence...For our discussion here we are talking about die marriages of the same year and type.
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1.) First and foremost, common dies used across multiple die marriages need to be grouped together to form a chain, such as below.
Obv. 1 -------------- Rev. A = Die Marriage #1
Obv. 2 -------------- Rev. A = Die Marriage #2
Obv. 2 -------------- Rev. B = Die Marriage #3
Utilizing die stages, you must determine which die was used on which die marriage first, second, etc., putting them in a proper order.
2.) After all the chains have been put into a proper striking order; the next step is to put each chain in the proper order in relationship to each other chain. This is where things get a bit more difficult.
There are several ways to help put these chains in a proper order with each other, utilizing the following:
A.) Punch use: stars, numerals, letters, etc. / A punch change can show links between groups or chains.
B.) Master die/hub use: the central portrait for either obverse of reverse. / A change in master dies can be easily tracked, and again can show links between groups or chains.
C.) Engraving or spacing styles: most working dies were done in groups and show similar spacing’s (i.e. 1795 halves). / When an engraver makes multiple dies, he gets into a rhythm or pattern as to placement of elements, i.e. the first star in relationship to the hair curls.
D.) Edge dies: either lettered or reeded edge dies can be utilized. / Different edge dies or different reed counts can denote a change and can be used to show links between groups or chains. Also the deterioration of the edge dies or reeded collar dies can be tracked to show a probable emission sequence.
3.) Any die re-marriages need to be confirmed and tracked. Sometimes these occurred one after the other, but sometimes other die marriages were struck in between.
4.) After all the above is done, there still may be individual die marriages that do not link with any other die marriage or do not have any outstanding characteristic that allows them to be easily put into a proper order.
In this last case, a decision has to be made in what order to place it. This should only be done as a last resort and only by someone who is intimately familiar with the dies and marriages in question.
All of the above was used to attempt to put the die marriages in their probable emission sequence, but there is always the possibility of being wrong or something new being discovered such as a new die marriage.
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The date on the coin is certainly important, but with those coins struck from the beginning of the first Mint (1792) and well into the second Mint (starting in 1833), the year on the coin, or more correctly the obverse die, was not as important or compelled by law to be struck in the same year stated.
There were no laws stating that the previous year‘s obverse or reverse dies should be discarded and not used for the next year’s production until sometime in the 1870’s.
Coinage laws do impact things, but usually not too much as far as the emission sequence.
Delivery warrants can sometimes add additional evidence as to emission, but can never be used exclusively.
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Dave, Thanks for the kind comments! The doors were my target, so I am glad my aim was true!
Lance, The edges dies for the capped bust die marriages will be covered in the next volumes.
QN
Go to Early United States Coins - to order the New "Early United States Half Dollar Vol. 1 / 1794-1807" book or the 1st new Bust Quarter book!
<< <i>so if I understand this correctly there hasn't been any new die marriages put forth in this book, only the Overton marriages placed in the order the Mint supposedly struck them?? if that's the case why wouldn't the above T-10 be listed as T-10/115 or something like that?? I don't think it downplays the research done and the new information that is made available and would help collectors over all preceeding generations put the listings to better use. otherwise, to some it might come across as confusing and just a different system for the same thing that already seems successful, a better mousetrap if you will. >>
Believe me when I tell you that I gave a lot of thought and consideration about changing the numbering system for the early half dollars.
I agree that the early halves have been studied quite a bit. However, little or none of that information has found its way into the newer versions of Overton. In fact, very little has changed since the 1970 2nd edition. Although Parsley did add bigger new photographs in the 1990 3rd edition, he is still using those same black & white photos today in the latest 5th edition. Many of the plate coins are lower grade and can barely be used for attribution.
Added to this is the fact that even after 25 years and new editions (4th & 5th), many errors are still uncorrected, including the rarity ratings; condition census; incorrect die stages; incorrect pick up points; etc. Further, Parsley will not even consider re-ordering the series to reflect new information and to incorporate an actual emission sequence, or adding any other new theories or information.
He also has the Overton numbers copyrighted so that no one else can use them without his approval.
The new book is just that...a whole new book from scratch on the series. It incorporates an emission sequence; has larger all new pictures of each marriage in color, as well as many of the different die stages; incorporates new theories and other new information about the series; adds a new more accurate condition census; new more accurate rarity ratings, including a pictorial census of the R-6 to R-8 die marriages; gives Mint documented background information on each type and the people involved in producing the coins; and much more...
Therefore, a new numbering system was needed and incorporated.
When Haseltine did his type table (using J. Colvin Randell's work) in 1881, he numbered them as 1, 2, 3, etc. Eventually these became known as Haseltine numbers and each was preceded by an H.
When Beistle redid the series in 1929 he gave them new numbers using the obverse/reverse designation (1-A, 2-B, etc.). Eventually these became known as Beistle numbers.
When Al Overton wrote his 1st edition in 1967, he renumbered the marriages as 1, 2, 3, etc. and these became known as Overton numbers by the addition of an O in front of the number.
When Overton redid the series for his 2nd edition in 1970, he again renumbered the series to differentiate it from the 1st edition by adding 100 to each number (101, 102, etc.), these eventually became Overton numbers by adding an O in front of the number.
In Robert Hilt's 1980 book on die varieties, he also numbered the series differently that Overton.
As we can see, every time the series was redone by someone new and even by Overton himself, the marriage numbers were changed. So, that is exactly what we have here...
Take some time to make a decision as to whether you think there is a significant need to change the numbering system, as you really need to see the new book first...
QN
Go to Early United States Coins - to order the New "Early United States Half Dollar Vol. 1 / 1794-1807" book or the 1st new Bust Quarter book!
<< <i>I think digital photography and digital printing have revolutionized the coin reference book. However, I think the future of numismatic references is in the "virtual" reference, either a CD, digital download for a tablet or web based. Who wants to lug a heavy book to a show to attribute Pre-turbs? have it on your iPad and you can reference it anywhere. >>
I agree to a certain extent.
However in my opinion at least, there is nothing better than a solid book.
I will be doing a PDF version of the books at some point that can be utilized on a tablet or iPad, but will not do a web page of the books, as there is no guarantee that it will be accessible when wanted.
QN
Go to Early United States Coins - to order the New "Early United States Half Dollar Vol. 1 / 1794-1807" book or the 1st new Bust Quarter book!
Early American Copper, Bust and Seated.
<< <i>Having gotten my copy hand delivered to me at my table at the ANA last week by the author himself (thanks Steve!), all I can say is this new book blows the doors off the Overton book.
100 times more useful, with great (color!) photos. It is sure to be a huge success. >>
Can't wait to get mine in hand.
<< <i>Why the new numbering system? That seems to only promote confusion. Please enlighten me. >>
Please see what I posted above.
The long and the short of it is that my book is not an Overton book. The die marriages are not in the same order as they were in Overton. Therefore it has a new numbering system.
There should be no confusion, as there is a simple conversion chart in both the front and back sections of the book. If anyone has a problem with not wanting to learn the new numbers, they can simply write the older Overton numbers on each die marriage page.
QN
Go to Early United States Coins - to order the New "Early United States Half Dollar Vol. 1 / 1794-1807" book or the 1st new Bust Quarter book!
I'm really looking forward to future volume(s) on the turban halves.
This thread deserves some coins with Tomkins attributing. Here are some scarcer marriages.
Lance.
T-7 (O.101a), R3
T-25 (O.105), R4 (two leaves)
T-3 (O.103), R3 (large 3)
T-12 (O.105), R5
T-7 (O.102), R3 (1806/5)
T-1 (O.104a), R5 (1806/5)
Are auction catalogers allowed to use them?
Are TPGs allowed to put Overton numbers on their slabs?
Are dealers allowed to describe coins for sale by Overton number?
Are authors of new systems allowed to published cross-references to Overton?
This all seems like a slippery slope.
As for the Overton numbers, until most Bust half dollar collectors embrace the new book, I would imagine
that both numbers will be used (like Bust $ with BB and B numbers).
Steve, I assume you will be doing the later dates at some time. It would be great (for me, at least) if you
could put together a listing for each date that uses the star positions. For example, B B B B would be listed
first in a quick-find list, then B B B LE, and so on. For dates like the 1827, being able to scan a list of star
positions would be a great way to find the variety quickly and accurately. I know that you have a quick find
chart in the current book, but one with star positions would be a wonderful addition.
Thanks for all your hard work -- we really appreciate it!
<< <i>Totally agree with Steve coming up with a new numbering system. His new book is an excellent reference.
As for the Overton numbers, until most Bust half dollar collectors embrace the new book, I would imagine
that both numbers will be used (like Bust $ with BB and B numbers).
Steve, I assume you will be doing the later dates at some time. It would be great (for me, at least) if you
could put together a listing for each date that uses the star positions. For example, B B B B would be listed
first in a quick-find list, then B B B LE, and so on. For dates like the 1827, being able to scan a list of star
positions would be a great way to find the variety quickly and accurately. I know that you have a quick find
chart in the current book, but one with star positions would be a wonderful addition.
Thanks for all your hard work -- we really appreciate it! >>
There will be several different charts to utilize for the capped bust type volumes, as they are a bit more cookie cutter than the earlier types found in the first volume. The star - dentil relationships will be one.
As to the next volume, my current plans are to have it completed and available at the Denver ANA in 2017. It will cover the next 150 die marriages and the 1807 - 1821 dates.
I agree that the new numbers will not be fully adopted until all of the series is covered up to 1836. As stated, both "T" numbers and "O" numbers will be used for several more years.
I find it interesting that so many people are resistive to a change in numbering system, when they have not even seen the book yet. As I said in an earlier post...This is not a new Overton book.
QN
Go to Early United States Coins - to order the New "Early United States Half Dollar Vol. 1 / 1794-1807" book or the 1st new Bust Quarter book!
First impression.....WOW
This book will find a nice home in my library. That is after I paw through every page and admire every pic.
Really nice to see real nice clear pics showing the varieties as they really look.
Great work Steve and I look forward to adding all your future work to my book collection.
However, I don't think the numbering system will become standard until the series [of books] is completed.
Otherwise, some coins will use the T-# and others the O-#
But, I wait the completion.
Fun and excellent read.
BHNC #203
Thanks Frank!
Glad you are both enjoying the book...
I agree...many years for any transition, as far as numbering system goes and of course that is after I have completed all of the series...
Hope I can get it all done before anything happens to me.
QN
Go to Early United States Coins - to order the New "Early United States Half Dollar Vol. 1 / 1794-1807" book or the 1st new Bust Quarter book!
GREAT JOB STEVE!!
Early American Copper, Bust and Seated.
<< <i>Have the TPG's attribution started using them yet? >>
It will quite a while before/if that happens. My goodness, the book is only a few weeks old. Furthermore, I don't think Tomkins' numbering will catch on in a big way until later volumes are published.
But I would not be surprised to learn that the TPG's acquired Steve's book for their reference libraries. It is so much better, in every way, than Overton's. I'd go so far as to say there would be fewer misattributions if it were used.
Lance.
<< <i>
<< <i>Have the TPG's attribution started using them yet? >>
It will quite a while before/if that happens. My goodness, the book is only a few weeks old. Furthermore, I don't think Tomkins' numbering will catch on in a big way until later volumes are published.
But I would not be surprised to learn that the TPG's acquired Steve's book for their reference libraries. It is so much better, in every way, than Overton's. I'd go so far as to say there would be fewer misattributions if it were used.
Lance. >>
Lance that's why I asked aimed at the tread title. Give it time to grow.
The Overton numbers were an attempt to roughly assume the emission order, as Overton listed the overdates first, which we now know are not always correct for the first die marriage of the year. As such, the Overton numbers are incorrect and only serve as a familiar numbering system, chosen without full knowledge of the series. The Tompkins "T" numbers incorporate all previous research, as well as his own. In time, the T numbers will replace the O numbers, just as Overton replaced Beistle and Randall/Haseltine.
Most collectors of the series have their own cheat sheets of pick up points to attribute the R-5 to R-8 rare varieties of the flowing hair and draped bust series (I dislike the "pre-turban" reference, which has no contemporary bearing), so most do not lug the brick to shows. Or they have the series memorized, in time. A condensed, attribution only volume 1794-1836 would be a good idea for coin shows, when all volumes are done.
The Tompkins book is in another league compared to the Overton/Parsley book, in all aspects. When the remaining volumes are published, there will be no reason to buy an Overton book except for a historical reference of the series.