From this thread, it seems like there may be nothing that can be done about bad B&Ms and they are just part of the hobby one must accept.
If this cannot be addressed, it seems like it's prudent to have clear instructions for collection liquidation by heirs who may not be collectors. That helps for one's own collection but less for others.
30% or less is crazy awful low, but where is the measuring stick that is acceptable? 50%, 60%, more?
I have occasionally made purchases at coin shops, but I have never witnessed a customer walking in with items to sell. Also, I have not attempted to sell anything to a B&M.
What do honest B&M's pay? I would imagine with major monthly break even expenses, an honest dealer cannot pay 80%+ of FMV except on key dates or rarities?
It happens in all industries, automotive, hvac, pets, it's just everywhere. The only way to win is knowledge. It's took many years to get over the anger of seeing it happen. The last time I really felt it was at a dinner party where the widowed host told me she turner in some coins to a Coin Shop. She said 'There were two full square plastic tubes with yellow caps. The gold coins said $50 each and that's what they gave me in cash. So I'm throwing a party''. From that point on the switch was fully clicked and the stories just don't seem to sicken me as much. I couldn't tell her and didn't bother asking for the shop name.
What it has also done is put my collecting and collection in perspective. Items are better labeled and instructions are more specific in regards to liquidation. If a party is going down on my passing it's going to be a big one with some new cars involved
<< <i>It happens in all industries, automotive, hvac, pets, it's just everywhere. The only way to win is knowledge. It's took many years to get over the anger of seeing it happen. The last time I really felt it was at a dinner party where the widowed host told me she turner in some coins to a Coin Shop. She said 'There were two full square plastic tubes with yellow caps. The gold coins said $50 each and that's what they gave me in cash. So I'm throwing a party''. From that point on the switch was fully clicked and the stories just don't seem to sicken me as much. I couldn't tell her and didn't bother asking for the shop name.
What it has also done is put my collecting and collection in perspective. Items are better labeled and instructions are more specific in regards to liquidation. If a party is going down on my passing it's going to be a big one with some new cars involved >>
Did you tell her that she may have left $50K on the table?
Reading this thread about "coins shops robbing people blind" caused me to think about other threads covering the topic of "coin dealers or collectors being burglarized or robbed".
Both situations involve one side [the one not having the coins in question but obtaining them] having an EXTREME advantage [superior knowledge, a break in to a shop when no one is around, or a gun/knife] over the other side [the one who has the coins in question but who will have possession of the coins taken from them by the person with the extreme advantage over them].
A report of a burglary or robbery of a coin dealer or a coin collector always results in condemnation of the thief (including calls for severe punishment).
A report of "coin shops robbing people blind" does not always result in condemnation of the coin shops that rob a person blind. Some folks are resigned to this [people being different in their knowledge, competitiveness, morals, ethics and conscious this activity will never be eliminated]. Some folks may even be envious of the coin shop that, for example, pays $50.00 face value stamped on a gold coin to the woman who took rolls of these gold coins to a coin shop to sell them and then threw a party to celebrate her windfall.
Are the two situations:
1. identical;
2. similar; or
3. completely different?
Further, what consequences should be imposed by society on the person who in both scenarios ends up with possession of the coins?
Further, what, if anything, should be done by society for the person in both scenarios who ends up losing possession of the coins?
I was once bird- dogged into a Coin Shop in Dealaware with a nice offer on Proof Gold and Silver Eagles. I went in with a ballpark figure that I'd be receiving for my Coins. The shop owner handed my Coins off to his assistant with the directive, count em. Well he got the count and then quoted what he'd be paying. The figure was several thousand below my estimated figure so I asked to see his calculations. Well his item buy price was good but the Gold was short by 1.5 ounces and the Silver count was short by 45 coins. Nice attempt with a built in excuse but it failed.
You gotta watch these slicksters because their business involves playing fool games to rip you off. Just like a Car Dealer or any business for that matter, people that don't actually work seem to totally be into outright scamming the marks out of their cash.
<< <i> Any time I told someone they had something valuable the odds that I could ever purchase it from them was near 0%. They'd always finds someone willing to pay a little more than what I offered. It seems illogical the coins brought in by widows and orphans are usually successfully low-balled....but, it's what seems to frequently happen. The entire business is illogical at times. It's easier to rip someone off where both parties feel "good" at the time than it is to other a "fair" price and risk not even getting the deal. >>
I've heard this from many dealers; making a fair offer is the kiss of death and you won't get the deal at all. Potential customers will leave the store thinking you're ripping them off for offering $600 on a $1000 coin but they'll gladly take $20 for that old silver dollar.
People need to know not to sell to coin dealers and especially not the fly by night motel buyers. We should all be more concientious about leaving good instructions on how to liquidate since most of these coins are being sold by our heirs. A few coins can be sold at the corner shop but most need to go to wholesale or spercialist dealers for the best price. Some need to go to auction or to specific collectors. The whole process should be overseen by someone who knows the market.
The unfortunate reality is that if these people avoid dealers all together, they still run the risk of being burned by ebay. Finding someone like jdimmick or rkfish who do their best to offer a fair purchase price is likely best for someone who doesn't know anything about coins. And IMO to try and bash them for purchasing things later after the fact is stretching the dealer bashing a bit far.
It seems that it is a well established opinion that collectors cherrypicking dealers is OK, but what about the heirs that list their inheritance on ebay with low BIN prices because they don't know they have a scarce or rare variety. Will the pickers here contact them ahead of time to verify that they aren't a little old lady who's husband just died or will they hit the BIN, pay immediately and come here to brag about the rip.
<< <i>Reading this thread about "coins shops robbing people blind" caused me to think about other threads covering the topic of "coin dealers or collectors being burglarized or robbed".
Both situations involve one side [the one not having the coins in question but obtaining them] having an EXTREME advantage [superior knowledge, a break in to a shop when no one is around, or a gun/knife] over the other side [the one who has the coins in question but who will have possession of the coins taken from them by the person with the extreme advantage over them].
A report of a burglary or robbery of a coin dealer or a coin collector always results in condemnation of the thief (including calls for severe punishment).
A report of "coin shops robbing people blind" does not always result in condemnation of the coin shops that rob a person blind. Some folks are resigned to this [people being different in their knowledge, competitiveness, morals, ethics and conscious this activity will never be eliminated]. Some folks may even be envious of the coin shop that, for example, pays $50.00 face value stamped on a gold coin to the woman who took rolls of these gold coins to a coin shop to sell them and then threw a party to celebrate her windfall.
Are the two situations:
1. identical;
2. similar; or
3. completely different?
Further, what consequences should be imposed by society on the person who in both scenarios ends up with possession of the coins?
Further, what, if anything, should be done by society for the person in both scenarios who ends up losing possession of the coins?
Whatever your answers are, please explain why. >>
I've generally thought of it as follows:
Robbing one blind can also be a theft where items are being stolen and of which the owner is unaware.
A diamond miner in Siberia would leave the mine at the end of his shift with a wheelbarrow full of dirt. The guards would sift through it but never find anything. Finally after a couple weeks a coworker enquired about his rather odd behavior. To which he replied; "don't tell anyone, but I'm stealing wheelbarrows"!
<< <i>jdimmick, are you going to tell us what town you live in? It could be helpful. >>
I've known Jim for about 5 years now - as straight a shooter as you will find in this industry. He is located in Fayetteville, NC >>
Aaahhhh, Fayetteville, NC....a military town. Since antiquity rip off artists have followed the troops and taken advantage of soldiers and their families. Nothing new about that I guess.
Successful trades/buys/sells with gdavis70, adriana, wondercoin, Weiss, nibanny, IrishMike, commoncents05, pf70collector, kyleknap, barefootjuan, coindeuce, WhiteTornado, Nefprollc, ajw, JamesM, PCcoins, slinc, coindudeonebay,beernuts, and many more
As others have noted from my partial reading of the thread this is also horrible for the hobby.
My primary interest is firearms. I've seen many widows just utterly ripped of by firearms dealers - some right in front of me. In fact, I flat out told a widow that she was being totally robbed by a gun dealer when she brought a Colt Python Hunter revolver into the shop new in the box and was offered $300 for it. I told the dealer that he was a crook and walked out. Fortunately she walked out as well.
As inexcusable as this is, certainly sellers have a responsibility to do some research. If they don't and they get ripped off they are partly to blame.
I think that anyone with valuable collectables of any sort should be sure that his/her family has clear instructions on what to do with them if the collector dies or becomes mentally incapacitated.
Our living trust clearly spells out which dealer is to be trusted with the coins and currency. Further, I have sheets in mine, my best friend's and my parent's SDBs with the approx value of my better coins and currency and who my trusted dealer is. I have, of course, discussed this with the dealer as well.
My closest friend, also a serious firearms collector, and I have reciprocal arrangements that only each other is to be trusted with the firearms.
Many have stated that people should sell off collections in their later years if no family member will be taking the collection over. Unfortunately, people die unexpectedly every day. It is incumbent upon a collector who owns valuable collectables to be certain that his family has clear instructions as to approx. value of the better items as well as trusted people to deal with them.
Of course, some collections may be in a family for a long time and their value not appreciated. In this case it comes down to seller beware.
Just my 0.02 of course, but reading this kind of stuff just makes me sick. It is largely preventable.
<< <i>The unfortunate reality is that if these people avoid dealers all together, they still run the risk of being burned by ebay. Finding someone like jdimmick or rkfish who do their best to offer a fair purchase price is likely best for someone who doesn't know anything about coins. And IMO to try and bash them for purchasing things later after the fact is stretching the dealer bashing a bit far.
It seems that it is a well established opinion that collectors cherrypicking dealers is OK, but what about the heirs that list their inheritance on ebay with low BIN prices because they don't know they have a scarce or rare variety. Will the pickers here contact them ahead of time to verify that they aren't a little old lady who's husband just died or will they hit the BIN, pay immediately and come here to brag about the rip. >>
Huge difference.
The coin dealer is a professional who is licensed in their state (and maybe others) to conduct business. No one forced them to open a shop and do business with the public. They are professionals, with professional contacts, networks, and hopefully extreme and detailed knowledge of their craft. If they fall down in any of these areas it's their fault....no different than hiring a lawyer who doesn't really know squat about the law but managed to graduate law school and pass the bar. Being cherry picked by smarter collectors is their own fault. And they could have just as easily been cherry picked by a smarter dealer. They have no reason to fear the old widow coming in to cherry pick them....lol. The cherry pickers are essentially pros at their craft. And the dealers rips them, that's fine. They should know better. Pro ripping pro. All part of the game. Leave the widows and orphans alone though.
The widow without knowledge is not a professional. She hasn't studied the coin business for 10-30 years like most coin dealers. And it's not usually scarce varieties where they are getting ripped off. It's usually on dates and mints you can readily look up in the Red book....assuming they can tell fakes from real ones. Verifying condition above the range of XF is the realm of the professional though. Without being able to grade like a pro, you can't come close to pricing. And then you have dipped, processed, damaged, AT, altered surfaces, and other coins to figure out. I wouldn't expect the widow to be able to tell an AU55 seated quarter from a MS65....without having seen them side by side in slabs.
I have reduced my coin collection over the last few years partly so others do not have to deal with getting rid of it. Sometime over the next year I plan on moving to a house I bought in Oklahoma and some more stuff will not be making the trip. The sad reality is that it is hard to put 100 percent faith in anyone and when money is involved it gets worse.
My heirs can do what they wish as I will not be around, but I plan on taking care of them thru my real estate, cash and insurance, the rest is just fluff
You can not protect everyone from themselves or those wishing to take advantage of others.
Mark NGC registry V-Nickel proof #6!!!! working on proof shield nickels # 8 with a bullet!!!!
Nothing new here. It's sickening, but goes on every day, all across the world, in every field imaginable. People defraud the government, people lie on their taxes, people cheat on spouses, children steal from their parents. It's all the same problem, really. Dishonesty runs rampant. That part about "loving your neighbor" is lost on some. Most people are good. It doesn't take many bad ones to wreck it for everyone.
The coin hobby/industry is much smaller than the firearm industry and even that very large market isn't monitored very carefully on a retail level. Valuable collections are "stolen" from widows and the uninformed all the time.
In contrast, some industries are very carefully monitored with licensing procedures (aviation, law, medicine, pharmacy, electricians, etc.). Adding layers of oversight or bureaucracy to what is now a mostly-free market is not the answer. Self-policing through trade organizations (PNG, ANA) is of little actual usefulness. Even in medicine it's awfully difficult for a group of good physicians to get a bad physician out of town. Legal challenges can tie up anything and it's too expensive and too difficult to fight the problem in all but the most horrific cases.
The ONLY solution as I see it is education. Sorry, but if you're stupid enough to die without anyone knowing what you really have, your heirs will receive exactly what you've planned for (not much). My wife doesn't know a durn thing about coins, but she knows how to read and I've left careful instructions typed out, with copies of receipts for every coin in my collection (big tax implications if you can't prove acquisition costs) in the SDB next to the coins. She may not get as much as I could, if I sold them carefully, but she won't get ripped off either.
Yeah it sucks, but human nature does not favor the ignorant in these situations.
Find a few good dealers (most of them, really) and stick with them!
<< <i>The unfortunate reality is that if these people avoid dealers all together, they still run the risk of being burned by ebay. Finding someone like jdimmick or rkfish who do their best to offer a fair purchase price is likely best for someone who doesn't know anything about coins. And IMO to try and bash them for purchasing things later after the fact is stretching the dealer bashing a bit far.
It seems that it is a well established opinion that collectors cherrypicking dealers is OK, but what about the heirs that list their inheritance on ebay with low BIN prices because they don't know they have a scarce or rare variety. Will the pickers here contact them ahead of time to verify that they aren't a little old lady who's husband just died or will they hit the BIN, pay immediately and come here to brag about the rip. >>
Huge difference.
The coin dealer is a professional who is licensed in their state (and maybe others) to conduct business. No one forced them to open a shop and do business with the public. They are professionals, with professional contacts, networks, and hopefully extreme and detailed knowledge of their craft. If they fall down in any of these areas it's their fault....no different than hiring a lawyer who doesn't really know squat about the law but managed to graduate law school and pass the bar. Being cherry picked by smarter collectors is their own fault. And they could have just as easily been cherry picked by a smarter dealer. They have no reason to fear the old widow coming in to cherry pick them....lol. The cherry pickers are essentially pros at their craft. And the dealers rips them, that's fine. They should know better. Pro ripping pro. All part of the game. Leave the widows and orphans alone though.
The widow without knowledge is not a professional. She hasn't studied the coin business for 10-30 years like most coin dealers. And it's not usually scarce varieties where they are getting ripped off. It's usually on dates and mints you can readily look up in the Red book....assuming they can tell fakes from real ones. Verifying condition above the range of XF is the realm of the professional though. Without being able to grade like a pro, you can't come close to pricing. And then you have dipped, processed, damaged, AT, altered surfaces, and other coins to figure out. I wouldn't expect the widow to be able to tell an AU55 seated quarter from a MS65....without having seen them side by side in slabs. >>
The point of my post was that just telling people who have no knowledge of your collection to avoid dealers and send them off to sell a collection can be just as costly as them going to an unscrupulous dealer. We as collectors seem to think that they can do some research and figure out how much stuff is worth, but in reality it can be the last thing that they want to deal with. So if they are the untrusting type, or if they follow the advice of tide here to just put them on eBay, they will probably take poor photos, list at bad times and have little to no prior coin sales, leaving them open to be picked or have low realized prices in auctions. Better advice would be to make sure they know who you would trust with your coin sales and at least point them in the right direction.
When I was younger my grandmother passed and like so many that went through the Depression she hoarded. We used to roll coins together because she was a waitress and server at the local Elks club and we would roll her change once week. We would find all kinds of things. I never knew that she had such a large collection put away. So, when she passed she left all the coins and stuff to me. I had no real idea of the value and I was a little hard up for money so I took about 50$ face into a coin shop in Chicago. It was in Northwest Chicago... Anyway. He goes through the coinage and he pulls out 1 coin and tell me that he will pay 10X face and the for this quarter he will pay me 25$. So, he paid me the 525$. So, the collection she left me really fueled my addiction to collecting. I began doing copious amount of research (over the years) and about a year after the fact I realize the coin that the old man pulled out and paid me 25$ for. It was a 1921 Standing Liberty Quarter in AU/BU condition. It made me sick to think about. I remember the coin so vividly... The day; I remember thinking of my grandma and sitting there rolling coins with her for so many years.... That's my experience with the old man in NW Chicago and how he was able to take advantage of me.
For many years, my policy when buying coins/currency over the counter is to have the customer get at least two additional offers. I ask them to make sure that the offers are apples-to-apples, meaning that each dealer has to price the exact same deal. I also request that they not share any offers with any other dealer, since there's always the shop in town who will say, "go get a quote from the other guy and I will pay you 5% more." On large deals it is a requirement that the seller get at least one more legitimate offer, since it protects us. The last thing I want is to get a call 1 year later by the customer's brother saying that we didn't pay a fair price.
Not all sellers are exactly angels either. Just last week I made an offer on a nice collection of large sized currency and a few decent type coins. Again, I told the customer to get a couple more quotes and--when he was ready--to come back and I would buy his deal, assuming I was indeed the highest offer. My offer was exactly $3,000 (I rounded up a few dollars). Well, another dealer in town called me later that day and asked me if I made an offer on this guy's deal. I said that I did, and the other dealer said that the customer told him that I offered him $4,000, and that if he could match it, he would sell to him. I can assure you that the collection was not at the $4,000 retail level, so no dealer in his/her right mind would have paid that. I was really stretching because I like large sized notes. Either he will be back to sell to me, or he will whore me out for $10 to another local dealer, using MY written offer.
Well when the market sucks this bad, some will resort to any means in order to stay in business. There is no law against making an offer and a client accepting an offer. Some speak of fraud but there is no fraud unless they are dealing in stolen goods or using fake money to buy coins. I am not defending the action but they are trying to make a buck since people want to buy things so cheap these days, the dealers need to buy it even cheaper or they can't stay in business. I'm not a dealer but can understand their rationale even if morally I disagree with it.
PS. Edited to add...I also find it - cough cough ironic - to find issue with this yet the thread right above this talks about a cherry pick ... and in general the boasting and congrats that pour out for one type of a rip but then condemnation for another type of rip.
<< <i>Well when the market sucks this bad, some will resort to any means in order to stay in business. There is no law against making an offer and a client accepting an offer. Some speak of fraud but there is no fraud unless they are dealing in stolen goods or using fake money to buy coins. I am not defending the action but they are trying to make a buck since people want to buy things so cheap these days, the dealers need to buy it even cheaper or they can't stay in business. I'm not a dealer but can understand their rationale even if morally I disagree with it.
PS. Edited to add...I also find it - cough cough ironic - to find issue with this yet the thread right above this talks about a cherry pick ... and in general the boasting and combats that pour out for one type of a rip but he condemnation for another type of rip. >>
If you have trouble getting it, then go reread roadrunner's post above a bit. Nothing like having sympathy for the poor coin dealer having to offer ripoff prices for any collection that comes in -- so very hard to stay in biz these days after all -- and when the yellow, gold-colored coin says $50 right on it -- it's perfectly acceptable to offer the old lady $60 and see if she bites. Practice your poker face, now! "Why think about that, she says! $10 above what it says right on the coin!"
You think that situation wouldn't constitute a fraud of some sort? Hmmm.
Coin dealers and coin collectors who purchase valuable coins or entire collections from widows, and others who reside in California who inherit from a deceased collector can not legally buy at "rip" prices [whatever that means] if the seller is an "elder" [generally 65 or older].
California has a body of laws that deal with the topic of "elder abuse", including "financial elder abuse". I can see these laws applying to a situation where an elder who is not a collector inherits a valuable collection from a deceased collector ends up selling the collection to a dealer or other collector for a "rip" price. (I heard of story of a elderly widow who inherited a very valuable collection when her collector husband died ended up selling same to a the dealer who helped the husband assemble the collection by being friendly with the widow both before and after her husband died. The collection was valued in the multiple millions and the dealer paid the widow about 3% of the value of the collection).
Actually, handling a California elder abuse lawsuit (be it one where an elder is sold coins worth $10.00 for $10,000.00; or where a widow sells a $10,000.00 for $10.00) arising from a coin transaction would be very interesting. I could always use new work.
<< <i>Coin dealers and coin collectors who purchase valuable coins or entire collections from widows, and others who reside in California who inherit from a deceased collector can not legally buy at "rip" prices [whatever that means] if the seller is an "elder" [generally 65 or older].
California has a body of laws that deal with the topic of "elder abuse", including "financial elder abuse". I can see these laws applying to a situation where an elder who is not a collector inherits a valuable collection from a deceased collector ends up selling the collection to a dealer or other collector for a "rip" price. (I heard of story of a elderly widow who inherited a very valuable collection when her collector husband died ended up selling same to a the dealer who helped the husband assemble the collection by being friendly with the widow both before and after her husband died. The collection was valued in the multiple millions and the dealer paid the widow about 3% of the value of the collection).
Actually, handling a California elder abuse lawsuit (be it one where an elder is sold coins worth $10.00 for $10,000.00; or where a widow sells a $10,000.00 for $10.00) arising from a coin transaction would be very interesting. I could always use new work. >>
What does the law say is a non "rip" price to offer?
I have no idea what the "law" would consider a non rip price to be.
I do not even know if in California its elder abuse laws have ever been applied to a lawsuit where the financial transaction which is claimed to be abusive is one arising from the sale or purchase of coins. It would all depend on the facts of the individual case and how a judge or jury would see it.
For the situation described in the story I heard if the purchasing dealer had a close personal and/or business relationship with the collector and the widow both before and after the death of the collector; if the dealer manipulated things to discourage or prevent the widow from shopping the collection around; if the collection was actually purchased from the widow for 3% of its value; if the dealer knew exactly what was in the collection before he made the offer and knew it was worth substantially more than his offer price; and if the dealer immediately upon purchasing the collection sold individual coins in the collection for 15-30 times what he paid to purchase the coin; and if the widow clearly did not know what the collection was worth and trusted the dealer to assist her in converting the collection to cash then I would think that this would likely be found to be a violation of the elder abuse laws. The consequences of violating these laws are pretty severe. including but not limited to monetary damages measured by the difference between the purchase price paid for the collection and the value of same, plus punitive damages, plus costs of suit, plus attorney fees. Injunctive relief and restitution may also be available as remedies.
<< <i>Well when the market sucks this bad, some will resort to any means in order to stay in business. There is no law against making an offer and a client accepting an offer. Some speak of fraud but there is no fraud unless they are dealing in stolen goods or using fake money to buy coins. I am not defending the action but they are trying to make a buck since people want to buy things so cheap these days, the dealers need to buy it even cheaper or they can't stay in business. I'm not a dealer but can understand their rationale even if morally I disagree with it.
PS. Edited to add...I also find it - cough cough ironic - to find issue with this yet the thread right above this talks about a cherry pick ... and in general the boasting and congrats that pour out for one type of a rip but then condemnation for another type of rip. >>
It has nothing to do with the market sucking this bad. This goes on in good times and bad. In fact, it's probably more frequently seen during good times when money is easy, coins are rolling into the shop. There is no requirement that coins be stolen to meet the legal definition of fraud. And "making an offer with a client accepting it" can certainly be fraud if it meets all the other requirements. And even if the action doesn't meet all those requirements, it can still be a crime under US law.
Fraud
A false representation of a matter of fact—whether by words or by conduct, by false or misleading allegations, or by concealment of what should have been disclosed—that deceives and is intended to deceive another so that the individual will act upon it to her or his legal injury.
Fraud is commonly understood as dishonesty calculated for advantage. A person who is dishonest may be called a fraud. In the U.S. legal system, fraud is a specific offense with certain features.
Fraud is most common in the buying or selling of property, including real estate, Personal Property, and intangible property, such as stocks, bonds, and copyrights. State and federal statutes criminalize fraud, but not all cases rise to the level of criminality. Prosecutors have discretion in determining which cases to pursue. Victims may also seek redress in civil court.
Fraud must be proved by showing that the defendant's actions involved five separate elements: (1) a false statement of a material fact,(2) knowledge on the part of the defendant that the statement is untrue, (3) intent on the part of the defendant to deceive the alleged victim, (4) justifiable reliance by the alleged victim on the statement, and (5) injury to the alleged victim as a result.
Some coin cases have gone to court and been proven to be acts of fraud.
Cherry picking a dealer is pro vs. pro.....or spy vs. spy. There are no rules. It's not the same as dealer vs. clueless widow.
A certain well-known dealer from Santa Barbara was prosecuted for ripping off an older photographer and his works (I think the elder gentleman had Alzheimer's). Initially minimally punished and also by PNG but now is back in "good repute". I remember as kid/young adult them ripping quite a few before the hand spank for this one...
Love that Milled British (1830-1960) Well, just Love coins, period.
<< <i>I have no idea what the "law" would consider a non rip price to be.
I do not even know if in California its elder abuse laws have ever been applied to a lawsuit where the financial transaction which is claimed to be abusive is one arising from the sale or purchase of coins. It would all depend on the facts of the individual case and how a judge or jury would see it.
For the situation described in the story I heard if the purchasing dealer had a close personal and/or business relationship with the collector and the widow both before and after the death of the collector; if the dealer manipulated things to discourage or prevent the widow from shopping the collection around; if the collection was actually purchased from the widow for 3% of its value; if the dealer knew exactly what was in the collection before he made the offer and knew it was worth substantially more than his offer price; and if the dealer immediately upon purchasing the collection sold individual coins in the collection for 15-30 times what he paid to purchase the coin; and if the widow clearly did not know what the collection was worth and trusted the dealer to assist her in converting the collection to cash then I would think that this would likely be found to be a violation of the elder abuse laws. The consequences of violating these laws are pretty severe. including but not limited to monetary damages measured by the difference between the purchase price paid for the collection and the value of same, plus punitive damages, plus costs of suit, plus attorney fees. Injunctive relief and restitution may also be available as remedies. >>
I expect the law wouldn't give a specific figure either. Would be interesting to see how a case would play out whether victim was elderly or just someone not knowledgeable.
<< <i>I have no idea what the "law" would consider a non rip price to be. >>
There was an earlier link in this thread or another thread in the past week with grading expert Rick Montgomery taking the stand and explaining to the judge what a "rip" was in the coin business. The judge bought it. IIRC that was in the 10c-30c on the dollar range for this particular court case.
<< <i>I have no idea what the "law" would consider a non rip price to be. >>
There was an earlier link in this thread or another thread in the past week with grading expert Rick Montgomery taking the stand and explaining to the judge what a "rip" was in the coin business. The judge bought it. IIRC that was in the 10c-30c on the dollar range. >>
In my opinion a rip is buying something for less than 70% of the lowest wholesale price plus the cost of shipping. Of course if there are just a few of very low value items then these could accumulate to cause an offer to be somewhat lower. Some things are very difficult to move at any price. Paying a nickel for a good for might not be much of a rip but paying $20 for an extensive collection of saloon tokens is a rip.
Of course when you get too far off the beaten path coin dealers can be surprisingly ignor- ant of true values. This is why they tell customers to just spend rolls of 1983 quarters. They could easily rip it but they don't know.
Coin shops flip a lot of what they purchase on ebay. This means they will be getting an average of 72% Market Value if that much in an acution starting say at 99c - try as low as 49% on some things. To make a 30% margin on something that is selling at 70% market value, cost would have to be around 49% of market value or less. I have tracked many ebay auctions the last couple of months (downloading from my watch list to an excel spreadsheet as soon as they close) mainly certified coins I am interested in. A lot of this is bringing 70% or so of Market Value per the relative TPG Price Guide on average. Many much less.
Right now current market conditions don't really favor sellers. Many in the business have no interest in buying unless they can make an instant profit as their cases at shows or shelves in the shop are already filled with material they can't sell at a decent profit. Many believe we are entering a long term southward side of steady market period like the mid 1990's.
The bids for MS65 generic Peace Dollars have fallen to $100 (I recently picked up one for around $105 from a well known national dealer, really superbly beautiful gem), I can't recall it being this low at any time I can recall. Generic MS65 Walkers like the 1941 are around $83 Bid.
You can draw your own conclustions but there probably is not much incentive for many buyers to pay more than 50-60% of market value if that much especially if its common / below average quality material. I am not defending someone being a crook, just stating the facts this seems like its a really bad time to sell. Its great if your a buyer or bulking up on super buying deals and enjoying ones coins. I have won many ebay auctions on slabbed MS69 ASE and Mod Commem Silver Dollars at BV + $15 or less. I am astounded these beautiful gem silver dollars can be this cheap. I have been getting some fantastic world slabbed gold deals and slabbed AGE coins as well. I occasionally buy classic numismatic coins but strong retail sales on these will need to spur me further. Scarce, rare date, and top coins will continue to hold their own I believe unless of course the well heeled buyers of these decide to focus elsewhere, especially if stock and bond returns look really bright.
I do believe strongly this is a fantastic time to buy PCGS coins (cross material over to PCGs) because now armed with the fantastic Coin Facts Tool and PCGS inventory manager we can track our holdings and plan a bright future. Many keys, top pops can be very elusive and I have paid upwards of TPG price guide for some especially if high end. I believe this will eventually pay off. In completing my $2.50 Indian Set I went after the key 1911-D and the semi keys first. Now just enjoy my coins and upgrade. Nowhere to go put up IMO.
"what about the heirs that list their inheritance on ebay with low BIN prices because they don't know they have a scarce or rare variety. Will the pickers here contact them ahead of time to verify that they aren't a little old lady who's husband just died or will they hit the BIN, pay immediately and come here to brag about the rip ?"
I'd actually like to hear pickers respond to that, though the answer is pretty obvious IMO.
Don't get me wrong; I don't dislike pickers per se-I've always said if someone finds something cool in my inventory, good for them (just don't take two hours to find it). What I have a problem with is the ongoing double standard if not hypocrisy that holds "if a dealer ever gets a good deal on something (i.e., buys it for less than what I think it's worth), he's obviously a thief... but if a non-dealer "gets one over" on someone else, it's just him being smarter than the other guy." And in saying that, I'm not defending anyone ripping off the stereotypical widow or any such nonsense. Guys purporting to be "dealers" who put up a shingle someplace and buy stuff at 10% of value from the unknowing have no place in this hobby or business and we all know that. Those aren't dealers in my book. And non dealers who do the exact same thing and write it off as somehow justifiable are no different. A rip is a rip, no matter who's doing the ripping.
Right now current market conditions don't really favor sellers. Many in the business have no interest in buying unless they can make an instant profit as their cases at shows or shelves in the shop are already filled with material they can't sell at a decent profit. Many believe we are entering a long term southward side of steady market period like the mid 1990's. >>
I don't think this is going to be at all like 1995.
Most of the markets for almost everything will be borderline vibrant. It's only the stuff that's widely collected that will be slow a few years. Even this could turn around sharply if metals prices recover. There will be little strenght in widely collecxted series for a while and then just like clockwork, they will recover as well.
I witnessed a woman plunk down 5 $20 Saints all unc. on the counter and ask what are they worth, this was early May 2011. I believe gold was at $1500 and change, dealer then offered $2500 for the group, she gladly accepted. I was floored and kept my mouth shut. After she left dealer said, "she thinks I paid her, I'll close early today with a big ol' grin"
Comments
If this cannot be addressed, it seems like it's prudent to have clear instructions for collection liquidation by heirs who may not be collectors. That helps for one's own collection but less for others.
They devour the weak, feeble, and elderly.
Sic transit gloria mundi.
I have occasionally made purchases at coin shops, but I have never witnessed a customer walking in with items to sell. Also, I have not attempted to sell anything to a B&M.
What do honest B&M's pay? I would imagine with major monthly break even expenses, an honest dealer cannot pay 80%+ of FMV except on key dates or rarities?
What it has also done is put my collecting and collection in perspective. Items are better labeled and instructions are more specific in regards to liquidation. If a party is going down on my passing it's going to be a big one with some new cars involved
<< <i>It happens in all industries, automotive, hvac, pets, it's just everywhere. The only way to win is knowledge. It's took many years to get over the anger of seeing it happen. The last time I really felt it was at a dinner party where the widowed host told me she turner in some coins to a Coin Shop. She said 'There were two full square plastic tubes with yellow caps. The gold coins said $50 each and that's what they gave me in cash. So I'm throwing a party''. From that point on the switch was fully clicked and the stories just don't seem to sicken me as much. I couldn't tell her and didn't bother asking for the shop name.
What it has also done is put my collecting and collection in perspective. Items are better labeled and instructions are more specific in regards to liquidation. If a party is going down on my passing it's going to be a big one with some new cars involved
Did you tell her that she may have left $50K on the table?
Both situations involve one side [the one not having the coins in question but obtaining them] having an EXTREME advantage [superior knowledge, a break in to a shop when no one is around, or a gun/knife] over the other side [the one who has the coins in question but who will have possession of the coins taken from them by the person with the extreme advantage over them].
A report of a burglary or robbery of a coin dealer or a coin collector always results in condemnation of the thief (including calls for severe punishment).
A report of "coin shops robbing people blind" does not always result in condemnation of the coin shops that rob a person blind. Some folks are resigned to this [people being different in their knowledge, competitiveness, morals, ethics and conscious this activity will never be eliminated]. Some folks may even be envious of the coin shop that, for example, pays $50.00 face value stamped on a gold coin to the woman who took rolls of these gold coins to a coin shop to sell them and then threw a party to celebrate her windfall.
Are the two situations:
1. identical;
2. similar; or
3. completely different?
Further, what consequences should be imposed by society on the person who in both scenarios ends up with possession of the coins?
Further, what, if anything, should be done by society for the person in both scenarios who ends up losing possession of the coins?
Whatever your answers are, please explain why.
I was once bird- dogged into a Coin Shop in Dealaware with a nice offer on Proof Gold and Silver Eagles. I went in
with a ballpark figure that I'd be receiving for my Coins. The shop owner handed my Coins off to his assistant with the
directive, count em. Well he got the count and then quoted what he'd be paying. The figure was several thousand
below my estimated figure so I asked to see his calculations. Well his item buy price was good but the Gold was short
by 1.5 ounces and the Silver count was short by 45 coins. Nice attempt with a built in excuse but it failed.
You gotta watch these slicksters because their business involves playing fool games to rip you off. Just like a Car
Dealer or any business for that matter, people that don't actually work seem to totally be into outright scamming the
marks out of their cash.
<< <i> Any time I told someone they had something valuable the odds that I could ever purchase it from them was near 0%. They'd always finds someone willing to pay a little more than what I offered. It seems illogical the coins brought in by widows and orphans are usually successfully low-balled....but, it's what seems to frequently happen. The entire business is illogical at times. It's easier to rip someone off where both parties feel "good" at the time than it is to other a "fair" price and risk not even getting the deal. >>
I've heard this from many dealers; making a fair offer is the kiss of death and you won't get the deal at all. Potential
customers will leave the store thinking you're ripping them off for offering $600 on a $1000 coin but they'll gladly take
$20 for that old silver dollar.
People need to know not to sell to coin dealers and especially not the fly by night motel buyers. We should all be more
concientious about leaving good instructions on how to liquidate since most of these coins are being sold by our heirs. A
few coins can be sold at the corner shop but most need to go to wholesale or spercialist dealers for the best price. Some
need to go to auction or to specific collectors. The whole process should be overseen by someone who knows the market.
It seems that it is a well established opinion that collectors cherrypicking dealers is OK, but what about the heirs that list their inheritance on ebay with low BIN prices because they don't know they have a scarce or rare variety. Will the pickers here contact them ahead of time to verify that they aren't a little old lady who's husband just died or will they hit the BIN, pay immediately and come here to brag about the rip.
My Ebay Store
<< <i>jdimmick, are you going to tell us what town you live in? It could be helpful. >>
I've known Jim for about 5 years now - as straight a shooter as you will find in this industry.
He is located in Fayetteville, NC
“In matters of style, swim with the current; in matters of principle, stand like a rock." - Thomas Jefferson
My digital cameo album 1950-64 Cameos - take a look!
<< <i>Reading this thread about "coins shops robbing people blind" caused me to think about other threads covering the topic of "coin dealers or collectors being burglarized or robbed".
Both situations involve one side [the one not having the coins in question but obtaining them] having an EXTREME advantage [superior knowledge, a break in to a shop when no one is around, or a gun/knife] over the other side [the one who has the coins in question but who will have possession of the coins taken from them by the person with the extreme advantage over them].
A report of a burglary or robbery of a coin dealer or a coin collector always results in condemnation of the thief (including calls for severe punishment).
A report of "coin shops robbing people blind" does not always result in condemnation of the coin shops that rob a person blind. Some folks are resigned to this [people being different in their knowledge, competitiveness, morals, ethics and conscious this activity will never be eliminated]. Some folks may even be envious of the coin shop that, for example, pays $50.00 face value stamped on a gold coin to the woman who took rolls of these gold coins to a coin shop to sell them and then threw a party to celebrate her windfall.
Are the two situations:
1. identical;
2. similar; or
3. completely different?
Further, what consequences should be imposed by society on the person who in both scenarios ends up with possession of the coins?
Further, what, if anything, should be done by society for the person in both scenarios who ends up losing possession of the coins?
Whatever your answers are, please explain why. >>
I've generally thought of it as follows:
Robbing one blind can also be a theft where items are being stolen and of which the owner is unaware.
A diamond miner in Siberia would leave the mine at the end of his shift with a wheelbarrow full of dirt. The guards would sift through it but never find anything. Finally after a couple weeks a coworker enquired about his rather odd behavior. To which he replied; "don't tell anyone, but I'm stealing wheelbarrows"!
<< <i>
<< <i>jdimmick, are you going to tell us what town you live in? It could be helpful. >>
I've known Jim for about 5 years now - as straight a shooter as you will find in this industry.
He is located in Fayetteville, NC >>
Aaahhhh, Fayetteville, NC....a military town.
Since antiquity rip off artists have followed the troops and taken advantage of soldiers and their families.
Nothing new about that I guess.
As others have noted from my partial reading of the thread this is also horrible for the hobby.
My primary interest is firearms. I've seen many widows just utterly ripped of by firearms dealers - some right in front of me. In fact, I flat out told a widow that she was being totally robbed by a gun dealer when she brought a Colt Python Hunter revolver into the shop new in the box and was offered $300 for it. I told the dealer that he was a crook and walked out. Fortunately she walked out as well.
As inexcusable as this is, certainly sellers have a responsibility to do some research. If they don't and they get ripped off they are partly to blame.
I think that anyone with valuable collectables of any sort should be sure that his/her family has clear instructions on what to do with them if the collector dies or becomes mentally incapacitated.
Our living trust clearly spells out which dealer is to be trusted with the coins and currency. Further, I have sheets in mine, my best friend's and my parent's SDBs with the approx value of my better coins and currency and who my trusted dealer is. I have, of course, discussed this with the dealer as well.
My closest friend, also a serious firearms collector, and I have reciprocal arrangements that only each other is to be trusted with the firearms.
Many have stated that people should sell off collections in their later years if no family member will be taking the collection over. Unfortunately, people die unexpectedly every day. It is incumbent upon a collector who owns valuable collectables to be certain that his family has clear instructions as to approx. value of the better items as well as trusted people to deal with them.
Of course, some collections may be in a family for a long time and their value not appreciated. In this case it comes down to seller beware.
Just my 0.02 of course, but reading this kind of stuff just makes me sick. It is largely preventable.
<< <i>The unfortunate reality is that if these people avoid dealers all together, they still run the risk of being burned by ebay. Finding someone like jdimmick or rkfish who do their best to offer a fair purchase price is likely best for someone who doesn't know anything about coins. And IMO to try and bash them for purchasing things later after the fact is stretching the dealer bashing a bit far.
It seems that it is a well established opinion that collectors cherrypicking dealers is OK, but what about the heirs that list their inheritance on ebay with low BIN prices because they don't know they have a scarce or rare variety. Will the pickers here contact them ahead of time to verify that they aren't a little old lady who's husband just died or will they hit the BIN, pay immediately and come here to brag about the rip. >>
Huge difference.
The coin dealer is a professional who is licensed in their state (and maybe others) to conduct business. No one forced them to open a shop and do business with the public. They are professionals, with professional contacts, networks, and hopefully extreme and detailed knowledge of their craft. If they fall down in any of these areas it's their fault....no different than hiring a lawyer who doesn't really know squat about the law but managed to graduate law school and pass the bar. Being cherry picked by smarter collectors is their own fault. And they could have just as easily been cherry picked by a smarter dealer. They have no reason to fear the old widow coming in to cherry pick them....lol. The cherry pickers are essentially pros at their craft. And the dealers rips them, that's fine. They should know better. Pro ripping pro. All part of the game. Leave the widows and orphans alone though.
The widow without knowledge is not a professional. She hasn't studied the coin business for 10-30 years like most coin dealers. And it's not usually scarce varieties where they are getting ripped off. It's usually on dates and mints you can readily look up in the Red book....assuming they can tell fakes from real ones. Verifying condition above the range of XF is the realm of the professional though. Without being able to grade like a pro, you can't come close to pricing. And then you have dipped, processed, damaged, AT, altered surfaces, and other coins to figure out. I wouldn't expect the widow to be able to tell an AU55 seated quarter from a MS65....without having seen them side by side in slabs.
My heirs can do what they wish as I will not be around, but I plan on taking care of them thru my real estate, cash and insurance, the rest is just fluff
You can not protect everyone from themselves or those wishing to take advantage of others.
NGC registry V-Nickel proof #6!!!!
working on proof shield nickels # 8 with a bullet!!!!
RIP "BEAR"
The coin hobby/industry is much smaller than the firearm industry and even that very large market isn't monitored very carefully on a retail level. Valuable collections are "stolen" from widows and the uninformed all the time.
In contrast, some industries are very carefully monitored with licensing procedures (aviation, law, medicine, pharmacy, electricians, etc.). Adding layers of oversight or bureaucracy to what is now a mostly-free market is not the answer. Self-policing through trade organizations (PNG, ANA) is of little actual usefulness. Even in medicine it's awfully difficult for a group of good physicians to get a bad physician out of town. Legal challenges can tie up anything and it's too expensive and too difficult to fight the problem in all but the most horrific cases.
The ONLY solution as I see it is education. Sorry, but if you're stupid enough to die without anyone knowing what you really have, your heirs will receive exactly what you've planned for (not much). My wife doesn't know a durn thing about coins, but she knows how to read and I've left careful instructions typed out, with copies of receipts for every coin in my collection (big tax implications if you can't prove acquisition costs) in the SDB next to the coins. She may not get as much as I could, if I sold them carefully, but she won't get ripped off either.
Yeah it sucks, but human nature does not favor the ignorant in these situations.
Find a few good dealers (most of them, really) and stick with them!
<< <i>
<< <i>The unfortunate reality is that if these people avoid dealers all together, they still run the risk of being burned by ebay. Finding someone like jdimmick or rkfish who do their best to offer a fair purchase price is likely best for someone who doesn't know anything about coins. And IMO to try and bash them for purchasing things later after the fact is stretching the dealer bashing a bit far.
It seems that it is a well established opinion that collectors cherrypicking dealers is OK, but what about the heirs that list their inheritance on ebay with low BIN prices because they don't know they have a scarce or rare variety. Will the pickers here contact them ahead of time to verify that they aren't a little old lady who's husband just died or will they hit the BIN, pay immediately and come here to brag about the rip. >>
Huge difference.
The coin dealer is a professional who is licensed in their state (and maybe others) to conduct business. No one forced them to open a shop and do business with the public. They are professionals, with professional contacts, networks, and hopefully extreme and detailed knowledge of their craft. If they fall down in any of these areas it's their fault....no different than hiring a lawyer who doesn't really know squat about the law but managed to graduate law school and pass the bar. Being cherry picked by smarter collectors is their own fault. And they could have just as easily been cherry picked by a smarter dealer. They have no reason to fear the old widow coming in to cherry pick them....lol. The cherry pickers are essentially pros at their craft. And the dealers rips them, that's fine. They should know better. Pro ripping pro. All part of the game. Leave the widows and orphans alone though.
The widow without knowledge is not a professional. She hasn't studied the coin business for 10-30 years like most coin dealers. And it's not usually scarce varieties where they are getting ripped off. It's usually on dates and mints you can readily look up in the Red book....assuming they can tell fakes from real ones. Verifying condition above the range of XF is the realm of the professional though. Without being able to grade like a pro, you can't come close to pricing. And then you have dipped, processed, damaged, AT, altered surfaces, and other coins to figure out. I wouldn't expect the widow to be able to tell an AU55 seated quarter from a MS65....without having seen them side by side in slabs. >>
The point of my post was that just telling people who have no knowledge of your collection to avoid dealers and send them off to sell a collection can be just as costly as them going to an unscrupulous dealer. We as collectors seem to think that they can do some research and figure out how much stuff is worth, but in reality it can be the last thing that they want to deal with. So if they are the untrusting type, or if they follow the advice of tide here to just put them on eBay, they will probably take poor photos, list at bad times and have little to no prior coin sales, leaving them open to be picked or have low realized prices in auctions.
Better advice would be to make sure they know who you would trust with your coin sales and at least point them in the right direction.
My Ebay Store
``https://ebay.us/m/KxolR5
J
For many years, my policy when buying coins/currency over the counter is to have the customer get at least two additional offers. I ask them to make sure that the offers are apples-to-apples, meaning that each dealer has to price the exact same deal. I also request that they not share any offers with any other dealer, since there's always the shop in town who will say, "go get a quote from the other guy and I will pay you 5% more." On large deals it is a requirement that the seller get at least one more legitimate offer, since it protects us. The last thing I want is to get a call 1 year later by the customer's brother saying that we didn't pay a fair price.
Not all sellers are exactly angels either. Just last week I made an offer on a nice collection of large sized currency and a few decent type coins. Again, I told the customer to get a couple more quotes and--when he was ready--to come back and I would buy his deal, assuming I was indeed the highest offer. My offer was exactly $3,000 (I rounded up a few dollars). Well, another dealer in town called me later that day and asked me if I made an offer on this guy's deal. I said that I did, and the other dealer said that the customer told him that I offered him $4,000, and that if he could match it, he would sell to him. I can assure you that the collection was not at the $4,000 retail level, so no dealer in his/her right mind would have paid that. I was really stretching because I like large sized notes. Either he will be back to sell to me, or he will whore me out for $10 to another local dealer, using MY written offer.
PS. Edited to add...I also find it - cough cough ironic - to find issue with this yet the thread right above this talks about a cherry pick ... and in general the boasting and congrats that pour out for one type of a rip but then condemnation for another type of rip.
<< <i>Well when the market sucks this bad, some will resort to any means in order to stay in business. There is no law against making an offer and a client accepting an offer. Some speak of fraud but there is no fraud unless they are dealing in stolen goods or using fake money to buy coins. I am not defending the action but they are trying to make a buck since people want to buy things so cheap these days, the dealers need to buy it even cheaper or they can't stay in business. I'm not a dealer but can understand their rationale even if morally I disagree with it.
PS. Edited to add...I also find it - cough cough ironic - to find issue with this yet the thread right above this talks about a cherry pick ... and in general the boasting and combats that pour out for one type of a rip but he condemnation for another type of rip. >>
If you have trouble getting it, then go reread roadrunner's post above a bit. Nothing like having sympathy for the poor coin dealer having to offer ripoff prices for any collection that comes in -- so very hard to stay in biz these days after all -- and when the yellow, gold-colored coin says $50 right on it -- it's perfectly acceptable to offer the old lady $60 and see if she bites. Practice your poker face, now! "Why think about that, she says! $10 above what it says right on the coin!"
You think that situation wouldn't constitute a fraud of some sort? Hmmm.
California has a body of laws that deal with the topic of "elder abuse", including "financial elder abuse". I can see these laws applying to a situation where an elder who is not a collector inherits a valuable collection from a deceased collector ends up selling the collection to a dealer or other collector for a "rip" price. (I heard of story of a elderly widow who inherited a very valuable collection when her collector husband died ended up selling same to a the dealer who helped the husband assemble the collection by being friendly with the widow both before and after her husband died. The collection was valued in the multiple millions and the dealer paid the widow about 3% of the value of the collection).
Actually, handling a California elder abuse lawsuit (be it one where an elder is sold coins worth $10.00 for $10,000.00; or where a widow sells a $10,000.00 for $10.00) arising from a coin transaction would be very interesting. I could always use new work.
<< <i>Coin dealers and coin collectors who purchase valuable coins or entire collections from widows, and others who reside in California who inherit from a deceased collector can not legally buy at "rip" prices [whatever that means] if the seller is an "elder" [generally 65 or older].
California has a body of laws that deal with the topic of "elder abuse", including "financial elder abuse". I can see these laws applying to a situation where an elder who is not a collector inherits a valuable collection from a deceased collector ends up selling the collection to a dealer or other collector for a "rip" price. (I heard of story of a elderly widow who inherited a very valuable collection when her collector husband died ended up selling same to a the dealer who helped the husband assemble the collection by being friendly with the widow both before and after her husband died. The collection was valued in the multiple millions and the dealer paid the widow about 3% of the value of the collection).
Actually, handling a California elder abuse lawsuit (be it one where an elder is sold coins worth $10.00 for $10,000.00; or where a widow sells a $10,000.00 for $10.00) arising from a coin transaction would be very interesting. I could always use new work. >>
What does the law say is a non "rip" price to offer?
I do not even know if in California its elder abuse laws have ever been applied to a lawsuit where the financial transaction which is claimed to be abusive is one arising from the sale or purchase of coins. It would all depend on the facts of the individual case and how a judge or jury would see it.
For the situation described in the story I heard if the purchasing dealer had a close personal and/or business relationship with the collector and the widow both before and after the death of the collector; if the dealer manipulated things to discourage or prevent the widow from shopping the collection around; if the collection was actually purchased from the widow for 3% of its value; if the dealer knew exactly what was in the collection before he made the offer and knew it was worth substantially more than his offer price; and if the dealer immediately upon purchasing the collection sold individual coins in the collection for 15-30 times what he paid to purchase the coin; and if the widow clearly did not know what the collection was worth and trusted the dealer to assist her in converting the collection to cash then I would think that this would likely be found to be a violation of the elder abuse laws. The consequences of violating these laws are pretty severe. including but not limited to monetary damages measured by the difference between the purchase price paid for the collection and the value of same, plus punitive damages, plus costs of suit, plus attorney fees. Injunctive relief and restitution may also be available as remedies.
``https://ebay.us/m/KxolR5
<< <i>Well when the market sucks this bad, some will resort to any means in order to stay in business. There is no law against making an offer and a client accepting an offer. Some speak of fraud but there is no fraud unless they are dealing in stolen goods or using fake money to buy coins. I am not defending the action but they are trying to make a buck since people want to buy things so cheap these days, the dealers need to buy it even cheaper or they can't stay in business. I'm not a dealer but can understand their rationale even if morally I disagree with it.
PS. Edited to add...I also find it - cough cough ironic - to find issue with this yet the thread right above this talks about a cherry pick ... and in general the boasting and congrats that pour out for one type of a rip but then condemnation for another type of rip. >>
It has nothing to do with the market sucking this bad. This goes on in good times and bad. In fact, it's probably more frequently seen during good times when money is easy, coins are rolling into the shop. There is no requirement that coins be stolen to meet the legal definition of fraud. And "making an offer with a client accepting it" can certainly be fraud if it meets all the other requirements. And even if the action doesn't meet all those requirements, it can still be a crime under US law.
Fraud
A false representation of a matter of fact—whether by words or by conduct, by false or misleading allegations, or by concealment of what should have been disclosed—that deceives and is intended to deceive another so that the individual will act upon it to her or his legal injury.
Fraud is commonly understood as dishonesty calculated for advantage. A person who is dishonest may be called a fraud. In the U.S. legal system, fraud is a specific offense with certain features.
Fraud is most common in the buying or selling of property, including real estate, Personal Property, and intangible property, such as stocks, bonds, and copyrights. State and federal statutes criminalize fraud, but not all cases rise to the level of criminality. Prosecutors have discretion in determining which cases to pursue. Victims may also seek redress in civil court.
Fraud must be proved by showing that the defendant's actions involved five separate elements: (1) a false statement of a material fact,(2) knowledge on the part of the defendant that the statement is untrue, (3) intent on the part of the defendant to deceive the alleged victim, (4) justifiable reliance by the alleged victim on the statement, and (5) injury to the alleged victim as a result.
Some coin cases have gone to court and been proven to be acts of fraud.
Cherry picking a dealer is pro vs. pro.....or spy vs. spy. There are no rules. It's not the same as dealer vs. clueless widow.
Well, just Love coins, period.
<< <i>I have no idea what the "law" would consider a non rip price to be.
I do not even know if in California its elder abuse laws have ever been applied to a lawsuit where the financial transaction which is claimed to be abusive is one arising from the sale or purchase of coins. It would all depend on the facts of the individual case and how a judge or jury would see it.
For the situation described in the story I heard if the purchasing dealer had a close personal and/or business relationship with the collector and the widow both before and after the death of the collector; if the dealer manipulated things to discourage or prevent the widow from shopping the collection around; if the collection was actually purchased from the widow for 3% of its value; if the dealer knew exactly what was in the collection before he made the offer and knew it was worth substantially more than his offer price; and if the dealer immediately upon purchasing the collection sold individual coins in the collection for 15-30 times what he paid to purchase the coin; and if the widow clearly did not know what the collection was worth and trusted the dealer to assist her in converting the collection to cash then I would think that this would likely be found to be a violation of the elder abuse laws. The consequences of violating these laws are pretty severe. including but not limited to monetary damages measured by the difference between the purchase price paid for the collection and the value of same, plus punitive damages, plus costs of suit, plus attorney fees. Injunctive relief and restitution may also be available as remedies. >>
I expect the law wouldn't give a specific figure either. Would be interesting to see how a case would play out whether victim was elderly or just someone not knowledgeable.
<< <i>I have no idea what the "law" would consider a non rip price to be.
>>
There was an earlier link in this thread or another thread in the past week with grading expert Rick Montgomery taking the stand and explaining to the judge what a "rip" was in the coin business. The judge bought it. IIRC that was in the 10c-30c on the dollar range for this particular court case.
<< <i>
<< <i>I have no idea what the "law" would consider a non rip price to be.
>>
There was an earlier link in this thread or another thread in the past week with grading expert Rick Montgomery taking the stand and explaining to the judge what a "rip" was in the coin business. The judge bought it. IIRC that was in the 10c-30c on the dollar range. >>
In my opinion a rip is buying something for less than 70% of the lowest wholesale price
plus the cost of shipping. Of course if there are just a few of very low value items then
these could accumulate to cause an offer to be somewhat lower. Some things are very
difficult to move at any price. Paying a nickel for a good for might not be much of a rip
but paying $20 for an extensive collection of saloon tokens is a rip.
Of course when you get too far off the beaten path coin dealers can be surprisingly ignor-
ant of true values. This is why they tell customers to just spend rolls of 1983 quarters. They
could easily rip it but they don't know.
Right now current market conditions don't really favor sellers. Many in the business have no interest in buying unless they can make an instant profit as their cases at shows or shelves in the shop are already filled with material they can't sell at a decent profit. Many believe we are entering a long term southward side of steady market period like the mid 1990's.
The bids for MS65 generic Peace Dollars have fallen to $100 (I recently picked up one for around $105 from a well known national dealer, really superbly beautiful gem), I can't recall it being this low at any time I can recall. Generic MS65 Walkers like the 1941 are around $83 Bid.
You can draw your own conclustions but there probably is not much incentive for many buyers to pay more than 50-60% of market value if that much especially if its common / below average quality material. I am not defending someone being a crook, just stating the facts this seems like its a really bad time to sell. Its great if your a buyer or bulking up on super buying deals and enjoying ones coins. I have won many ebay auctions on slabbed MS69 ASE and Mod Commem Silver Dollars at BV + $15 or less. I am astounded these beautiful gem silver dollars can be this cheap. I have been getting some fantastic world slabbed gold deals and slabbed AGE coins as well. I occasionally buy classic numismatic coins but strong retail sales on these will need to spur me further. Scarce, rare date, and top coins will continue to hold their own I believe unless of course the well heeled buyers of these decide to focus elsewhere, especially if stock and bond returns look really bright.
I do believe strongly this is a fantastic time to buy PCGS coins (cross material over to PCGs) because now armed with the fantastic Coin Facts Tool and PCGS inventory manager we can track our holdings and plan a bright future. Many keys, top pops can be very elusive and I have paid upwards of TPG price guide for some especially if high end. I believe this will eventually pay off. In completing my $2.50 Indian Set I went after the key 1911-D and the semi keys first. Now just enjoy my coins and upgrade. Nowhere to go put up IMO.
I'd actually like to hear pickers respond to that, though the answer is pretty obvious IMO.
Don't get me wrong; I don't dislike pickers per se-I've always said if someone finds something cool in my inventory, good for them (just don't take two hours to find it). What I have a problem with is the ongoing double standard if not hypocrisy that holds "if a dealer ever gets a good deal on something (i.e., buys it for less than what I think it's worth), he's obviously a thief... but if a non-dealer "gets one over" on someone else, it's just him being smarter than the other guy." And in saying that, I'm not defending anyone ripping off the stereotypical widow or any such nonsense. Guys purporting to be "dealers" who put up a shingle someplace and buy stuff at 10% of value from the unknowing have no place in this hobby or business and we all know that. Those aren't dealers in my book. And non dealers who do the exact same thing and write it off as somehow justifiable are no different. A rip is a rip, no matter who's doing the ripping.
RIP Mom- 1932-2012
<< <i>
Right now current market conditions don't really favor sellers. Many in the business have no interest in buying unless they can make an instant profit as their cases at shows or shelves in the shop are already filled with material they can't sell at a decent profit. Many believe we are entering a long term southward side of steady market period like the mid 1990's. >>
I don't think this is going to be at all like 1995.
Most of the markets for almost everything will be borderline vibrant. It's only the stuff that's widely collected that will be slow a few years. Even this could turn around sharply if metals prices recover. There will be little strenght in widely collecxted series for a while and then just like clockwork, they will recover as well.
Time still flies.
<< <i>One of these shops just hosed a guy on a krand, offered him 600 and the guy took it. >>
What's a fair offer for a K rand? 90% of spot? 95%? Spot?
I believe gold was at $1500 and change, dealer then offered $2500 for the group, she gladly accepted. I was floored and
kept my mouth shut. After she left dealer said, "she thinks I paid her, I'll close early today with a big ol' grin"