1876-S Trade Dollar Double Die Obverse recently picked off E-bay. UPDATE: PCGS said it was Counterfe

TennesseeDave · June 14, 2015 4:12AM

She is not really very pretty, but I think it's my best cherry pick to date. I was lucky enough to see it just minutes after it listed for a great buy it now price. The coin is at least AU in details, but has environmental damage. I think it may have been a sea salvaged coin possibly. It's a real shame, but the fact that it exists is pretty amazing. I was told that there may be only 12-14 known to exist. There's only one VF-35 straight graded and one AU-55 Chopmark in Pcgs pop report. I know of a couple details holdered coins. I just wanted to share it and say that this proves that there are still plenty of rarities still undiscovered. I just renewed my Pcgs membership and plan to send this along with 7 other raw trade dollars in very soon. I hope it gets into a Genuine AU-details holder, most likely with evironmental damage with chopmarks. Some of the chops are very cool. Any and all comments are welcomed. Edited to add that a long soak in acetone removed most of the junk from the chopmarks.

These were the auction photos.

cmerlo1 · June 14, 2015 4:20AM

You sure it's real?

Edited to add: If it is, it's awesome!

CaptHenway · June 14, 2015 4:48AM

Looks OK to me. Good pick!

BTW for all, when soaking a coin in acetone be sure to use a jar with a lid so that it does not evaporate away, and be VERY CAREFUL around any type of open flame, as acetone is very combustible.

Unknown · June 14, 2015 5:08AM

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DIMEMAN · June 14, 2015 5:12AM

Way to go. Tuff varieties are a nice find no matter what the grade!

Thanks for posting.

DDR · June 14, 2015 5:39AM

DDR · June 14, 2015 5:39AM

Fabulous cherry pick!!! Congratulations.

Unknown · June 14, 2015 5:53AM

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OGDan · June 14, 2015 7:47AM

Awesome score Dave, sounds like it wasn't on eBay for long! Glad you were the one to snag it.

The number of these known is closer to 10 than to 20.

mbogoman · June 14, 2015 8:04AM

Great pick! Beat me to it. Glad that someone here grabbed it. I'm always on the lookout for one...

LanceNewmanOCC · June 14, 2015 10:09AM

.
n-i-c-e-!
.

alohagary · June 14, 2015 4:39PM

Please advise where are the pick up points

kaz · June 14, 2015 7:31PM

Fantastic!

keoj · June 14, 2015 8:26PM

TenneseeDave,

In the census that I put together, you have coin #13 (we'll say it's lucky 13). Congrats! This is one of the "kings" of difficult TD varieties.

Keoj

ricko · June 14, 2015 8:57PM

Great catch.... and a nice TD..... good luck on the submission...Cheers, RickO

TennesseeDave · June 15, 2015 6:33AM

<< TenneseeDave,

In the census that I put together, you have coin #13 (we'll say it's lucky 13). Congrats! This is one of the "kings" of difficult TD varieties.

Keoj >>

Whoa !!!!! I am glad that I am not overly superstitious.... Thanks to all that commented and if anyone has any more info or pictures of other examples, I would love to see them posted to this thread.

MedalCollector · June 15, 2015 6:46AM

Was your heart racing and your hands shaking after finding that? It takes luck AND a good eye for a cherry like that. Congrats!

TennesseeDave · July 23, 2015 8:23AM

Well, I suppose this was not my best cherry pick. The coin was deemed to be Counterfeit and I have now returned the coin for a refund. After getting it back from Pcgs I carefully compared it to Pictures of a Genuine 76-S DDO that were kindly e-mailed to me by a forum member. All of the doubling was present, but some of the finer details were missing. I mistook the surfaces to be corroded from salt water or possibly a metal detector find, when in reality they were consistent to that of a cast coin. I guess I was blind to that fact because no one had ever heard of this rare variety being faked.

mbogoman · July 23, 2015 8:48AM

Wow!!! I'm stunned.

Looking at the original pics again, with 20-20 hindsight, the only thing that looks fishy to me are the chopmarks. The big ones don't look normal, and there are some small ones that don't seem age appropriate. But still, I was completely fooled. I am just blown away that such a rare variety was faked, and well...

DDR · July 23, 2015 8:57AM

That's the first I have heard of a 76-S DDO being faked. I've seen at least two cast counterfeit 76-CC DDRs, but that's the first 76-S DDO I've seen.

I am really sorry to hear that this one did not work out, Dave.

LanceNewmanOCC · July 23, 2015 9:07AM

.
while i thought there was a bit of concern with the chops and surfaces, i didnt look as closely as i should have.

im still going to dig-in on this one for diagnostic sake.

i now wonder if they just stumbled into a ddo t2 obverse as a transfer coin? if so there will be more of these out there, with and w/o chops.

im shocked the chop afficianados didnt say something. not really my area although those arent the common type i see.

is it possible the coin is good and just the chops are bad? i know, i am reaching.

.

Wabbit2313 · July 23, 2015 9:10AM

Genuine coins are reported and taken down. Fakes are bought, congratulations are showered down by the "experts", and the clunkers are sent in for grading.

This is why everyone needs to let eBay run itself as a free marketplace.

PS, for the record, that is the worst looking fake in recent memory! The only thing it's missing is rust stains from the casting and they might have been there earlier. (Updated, wait there are rust stains!

)

stealer · July 23, 2015 9:43AM

<< Genuine coins are reported and taken down. Fakes are bought, congratulations are showered down by the "experts", and the clunkers are sent in for grading.

This is why everyone needs to let eBay run itself as a free marketplace.

PS, for the record, that is the worst looking fake in recent memory! The only thing it's missing is rust stains from the casting and they might have been there earlier. (Updated, wait there are rust stains!

) >>

That's all folks. We have the winner. The biggest internet dong around. All should come and feel - it'll only grow.

Wabbit2313 · July 23, 2015 10:23AM

Stealer, I can live with hacks "thinking" I am a fool. It sure beats the alternative.

123cents · July 23, 2015 10:33AM

Sorry to hear the bad news Dave.

coindeuce · July 23, 2015 10:46AM

I've been duped before on an 1878-CC Trade that would fool 99% of the experts, so I stayed out of this discussion.

stealer · July 23, 2015 11:21AM

<< Stealer, I can live with hacks "thinking" I am a fool. It sure beats the alternative. >>

It's not really the Leaning Tower of Pisa we're seeing, no, wabbit has been living on Internet God's green earth for 650+ years.

mbogoman · July 23, 2015 11:49AM

<< Genuine coins are reported and taken down. Fakes are bought, congratulations are showered down by the "experts", and the clunkers are sent in for grading.

This is why everyone needs to let eBay run itself as a free marketplace.

PS, for the record, that is the worst looking fake in recent memory! The only thing it's missing is rust stains from the casting and they might have been there earlier. (Updated, wait there are rust stains! ) >>

I think he is the latest reincarnation of Redjac. Instead of planet hopping through the Federation, he moves from thread to thread in the cyberworld.

OK, OK, I know that's an obscure Star Trek reference, but if the shoe fits...

joebb21 · July 23, 2015 12:02PM

as a couple of the TD experts/collectors all chimed in thinking it was real and you yourself believed it was real- do you think its possible pcgs got this one wrong?

Shortgapbob · July 23, 2015 12:07PM

I saw a counterfeit 1875-CC Trade Dollar in Baltimore that was scary good. It has some sharp guys unsure.

Wabbit2313 · July 23, 2015 12:28PM

Another great story here. Cherry pick the seller, and if it was genuine, (how anyone could even think that puzzles me), buyer lands a windfall and the seller is screwed.

Coin is fake and guess what..................right back to the seller and the seller is still screwed.

I don't happen to agree with that scenario, just like I don't agree with MBOZOMAN reporting fakes, (except the real ones apparently), but not reporting honest seller mistakes.

Kumbaya and high fives as long as the seller gets the shaft. How many dealers around here get barbequed for way less?

vplite · July 23, 2015 12:30PM

Dave,

Thanks so much for this fascinating and educational post! The Internet is still the Wild West in many areas, but fortunately digital infrastructure, such as eBay, are there to provide some recourse.

Yes they suck and too expensive, but...

With 20-20 hindsight this was an unprofitable deal, since the outcome is 100% certain. When you made this "wager" the risk/reward ratio was worthwhile.

You will make better bets in the future, so the cost of this education was reasonable. Again thanks for sharing.

okiedude · July 23, 2015 1:54PM

Did you happen to weigh it after getting it back from PCGS?

OGDan · July 23, 2015 2:10PM

Let's think this through...

There are just over 10 of these known. Someone in China knows enough about TD varieties (which are totally obscure) and is able to come up with a cast counterfeit? It's hard enough even to find a good picture of a real one, let alone an actual example with near UNC details with which to copy. It seems more likely to me that ALL of the 76-S DDO are chinese fakes than some are, some aren't. (to be clear, I'm NOT saying that is the case)

I've seen enough chopmarked trade dollars with environmental damage that I chalked it up to a hard life. Having never seen or heard of a counterfeit 76-S DDO, it seemed so unlikely. But yeah, looking at the picture it doesn't look right.

TennesseeDave · July 23, 2015 6:37PM

<< as a couple of the TD experts/collectors all chimed in thinking it was real and you yourself believed it was real- do you think its possible pcgs got this one wrong? >>

It would be unfortunate if they did, but I think they are right. The coins weighed correctly at just over 27gms but the surfaces were what gave it away. What I took for salt water damage was now obviously from casting.

CoinRaritiesOnline · July 23, 2015 9:12PM

This series scares the heck out of me.

asheland · July 24, 2015 12:22AM

LanceNewmanOCC · July 24, 2015 1:16AM

<< Let's think this through...

There are just over 10 of these known. Someone in China knows enough about TD varieties (which are totally obscure) and is able to come up with a cast counterfeit? It's hard enough even to find a good picture of a real one, let alone an actual example with near UNC details with which to copy. It seems more likely to me that ALL of the 76-S DDO are chinese fakes than some are, some aren't. (to be clear, I'm NOT saying that is the case)

I've seen enough chopmarked trade dollars with environmental damage that I chalked it up to a hard life. Having never seen or heard of a counterfeit 76-S DDO, it seemed so unlikely. But yeah, looking at the picture it doesn't look right. >>

well said. im still not 100% on this being a fake. only so much one can do with images for such a controversial coin though.

i'd still like to know if pcgs will genuine an authentic coin with counterfeit features aka chops, counter-stamps etc. they do it with toning but that is a slightly diff monster. now i wonder if they genuine puttied authentic coins or ones with doctored "enhanced" FH or the like.

now i got my brain going, i think i shared a trade with similar surfaces with o.d. a while back that was a type ii/ii 76-s large or small s, i dont recall. i will have to dig deep for those images? it had some purple crap on the surfaces that looked to be the culprit of corroding said surfaces.

if i find them, i will post them here and i will look asap. busy bee right now.
.

LanceNewmanOCC · July 24, 2015 2:06AM

.
i would like an official response from the submitter please.

pcgs sent the coin back in plastic 2x2 with the designation "questionable authenticity .86", not counterfeit .90, right?
.

ricko · July 24, 2015 3:13AM

Wow...too bad... did not see that from the original pictures... Cheers, RickO

TennesseeDave · July 24, 2015 5:08AM

<< .
i would like an official response from the submitter please.

pcgs sent the coin back in plastic 2x2 with the designation "questionable authenticity .86", not counterfeit .90, right?
. >>

The coin came back in a 2x2 labeled " Counterfeit "

LanceNewmanOCC · July 24, 2015 5:36AM

<< The coin came back in a 2x2 labeled " Counterfeit " >>

tyvm sir!
.

keoj · July 24, 2015 11:25AM

Put me the the category of "I would like to see the coin". It has a cast look but shows most of the DDO diagnostics. (I know the diagnostics well.) Very tough to tell but in general I side with PCGS on this stuff (but every so often they, and NGC, occasionally get it wrong). A cast copy of an incredibly rare variety. Interesting to say the least. Copies of the 76-CC DDR are abundant but that is a much more available coin.

Trade Dollars are tricky and it happens to us all. I had a 73-CC Trade Dollar that was not cast, and the tell was that it had an atypically high %of Silver over normal Trade Dollars. Weight was a little heavier than normal and I presumed it was due to the quality of silver being made into planchets. Stepping back, I was wrong but odd that someone would contribute that much silver to a fake coin. Oh yeah, it came out of an NGC holder.

keoj

keoj · July 24, 2015 11:35AM

One more thing, the reverse was correct as well and shows specific and correct (and subtle) diagnostics on the right edge of the eagles feathers. I am not saying that it is real but if fake (likely) it was a quality fake.

keoj

tradedollarnut · July 24, 2015 1:08PM

I would have kept it. Never seen one of those faked

OldIndianNutKase · July 24, 2015 1:58PM

<< I would have kept it. Never seen one of those faked >>

Thank you TDN for a reasonable opinion on what best to do with a very rare "counterfeit" that you purchased for just under $300.00. Even if I thought PCGS might be 90% correct, I would keep the coin on the for the 10% chance that it was not counterfeit. What if NGC may think it real?

OINK

nwcoast · July 24, 2015 2:23PM

super interesting thread and I'm sorry for the trouble for both the buyer (the OP) and the seller- providing that they didn't know the dubious questions that this coin generated.

I'm thankful I haven't been drawn into this series.
I've seen some nice ones come through one of my local shops too!

This kind of stuff has spooked me off from this series, and has me concerned as to the future of this hobby entirely.

Zoins · July 24, 2015 2:46PM

Was it put up for sale again?

kaz · July 24, 2015 9:02PM

I asked Dave to send me photos of the edge reeding a while back, which he did, and I didn't see anything wrong there either. Most fakes have poorly executed reeding, this coin didn't, so after looking at the other photos, I felt it was genuine. I'm still not convinced it's a fake.

OGDan · July 25, 2015 12:41AM

<< I felt it was genuine. I'm still not convinced it's a fake. >>

Agreed. Thought about this some more and I think it's legit.

It makes total sense that PCGS saw warning signs for a coin in a series that is guilty until proven innocent. Can't blame them for playing it safe but I don't agree with the verdict.

DDR · July 26, 2015 5:10AM

Informative thread.

What I find interesting about the whole thing is the chops; they are themselves unusual. If I was going to fake a coin I would use commonly seen chops, or copy one with common chops. I would think that common chops would give the counterfeit coin some additional legitimacy in the eyes of less experienced collectors (or experienced collectors relying on pictures.) Unusual chops such as these draw attention and scrutiny. It may be that the copier copied a legit 76-S DDO with those unusual chops. I'd love to see --and own-- the original.

1876-S Trade Dollar Double Die Obverse recently picked off E-bay. UPDATE: PCGS said it was Counterfe

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