As we're on the topic of dealers...
Walkerfan
Posts: 9,465 ✭✭✭✭✭
I wondered....
What do you think of giving a dealer your 'want list'?
I find three potential flaws:
1. I have done this only once and most items were never filled. I was never worked with directly, as in contacted privately or given first opportunity, only ONCE did they find something and it just appeared on their website for open sale to the public and an automated email was sent to me. It is a site that I frequent, so it really served no purpose and it was very impersonal.
2. Letting them know what I want/need may put me at their mercy, so that they could price gouge me. OR they may compete against me in an online auction for the same item.
3. They may just look for ANYTHING and not something PQ just to fill my order and I would have to reject it, anyway.
What say you? Has anyone had any GOOD experiences with this??
What do you think of giving a dealer your 'want list'?
I find three potential flaws:
1. I have done this only once and most items were never filled. I was never worked with directly, as in contacted privately or given first opportunity, only ONCE did they find something and it just appeared on their website for open sale to the public and an automated email was sent to me. It is a site that I frequent, so it really served no purpose and it was very impersonal.
2. Letting them know what I want/need may put me at their mercy, so that they could price gouge me. OR they may compete against me in an online auction for the same item.
3. They may just look for ANYTHING and not something PQ just to fill my order and I would have to reject it, anyway.
What say you? Has anyone had any GOOD experiences with this??
Sometimes, it’s better to be LUCKY than good. 🍀 🍺👍
My Full Walker Registry Set (1916-1947):
0
Comments
EAC 6024
When I was dealer this was one of the cornerstones of my business simply because most other dealers didn't want to take the time maintain the lists and hunt for specific coins at the shows. A good 40 to 50 percent of my business was want list work.
As an advanced collector I only use wants lists for material I just can't find, and it has worked for me. I know of certain dealers (a very small number) who do want list work, and they get my lists. There are some coins that so seldom offered that you have to go to specialist dealer to find them. Yes, these coins show up in major auctions, and that can work and has worked for me, BUT auctions can be a pain in the butt and the wallet. If someone else wants it as bad you do the price can be sent the stratosphere.
You have listed all of the negative aspects of want lists, but there are positives as well. The positive aspects are especially true if you don't go to very many major shows, and you are tired of overly optimistic grading that can a problem with auctions.
By that I mean we all have broader areas available to us now.
Or a Google search looks farther than most dealers ever roam.
<< <i>Saved search's have made them obsolete IMO.
By that I mean we all have broader areas available to us now.
Or a Google search looks farther than most dealers ever roam.
One possible caveat of distributing your want list to too many dealers is that it creates the appearance of an artificial demand for those coins, as many dealers begin looking for them. Be choosy and discrete when you give out a want list.
However, a dealer's time can be limited and if he does find the item he is usually going to have to purchase it from another dealer. So he will call the customer with "I have found x coin at $360 - yea or nay?" He will make this call before purchasing it from the other dealer. As a dealer, I would make this purchase assuming (1) the want list customer is reliable and would buy the coin and (2) the coin would be an acceptable item for my inventory if the transaction with the want list customer did not happen. Certainly would not want to be stuck with something I don't want someone flaked out on.
Years ago I did a lot of business with a world gold dealer (had basically wholesale price and I would retail the material I purchased from him usually at shows he did not set up at) at shows I set up at and indicated I wanted some Mexican Gold 50 Pesos and France Gold 100 FR Angels. Once he found a France 100 FR Gold Angel and I bought the coin. At another show he had some Gold Mexico 50 Pesos.
I have no problem taking a want list and want list work at a show can be interesting and rewarding during slow times.
<< <i>It would appear from your description of your past experience that you are dealing with the wrong dealer(s), and you have not developed a good working relationship with them. You need to identify one, or at the most two, dealers who deal in the material that you seek and develop a long term relationship with them. It is true that most dealers do not pursue or service want lists, but a few dealers actively pursue them.
One possible caveat of distributing your want list to too many dealers is that it creates the appearance of an artificial demand for those coins, as many dealers begin looking for them. Be choosy and discrete when you give out a want list. >>
There are only two dealers that I would ever even consider working a 'want list' with. I have purchased from both, in the past, and have been very satisfied. Both seem to offer 'fresh' material that I see nowhere, else....I really wonder where it comes from?? My only issue is that I'm not convinced that giving them a want list would make them look harder for this material. One of them has told me that their website listings represents just a small % of their actual sales....if this is true it could be helpful to me....just so long as they price it fairly, once they offer it to me.
Sometimes, it’s better to be LUCKY than good. 🍀 🍺👍
My Full Walker Registry Set (1916-1947):
https://www.ngccoin.com/registry/competitive-sets/16292/
<< <i>It would appear from your description of your past experience that you are dealing with the wrong dealer(s), and you have not developed a good working relationship with them. You need to identify one, or at the most two, dealers who deal in the material that you seek and develop a long term relationship with them. It is true that most dealers do not pursue or service want lists, but a few dealers actively pursue them. I must concur with Moldnut, as I have had very good experience with J. J. Teaparty over the years working my want list. The only times they have 'fallen short' of my expectations is when I fail to update my want list. Not only do they actively search for what you list, but they quickly develop a feel for the grade, eye appeal, and 'look' of the coins you seek.
One possible caveat of distributing your want list to too many dealers is that it creates the appearance of an artificial demand for those coins, as many dealers begin looking for them. Be choosy and discrete when you give out a want list. >>
It's nice when you have an active want list with JJ(who solicited my list) and you see a couple coins on your want list through onna their blanket emails that are on your list,call within 30 minutes and they are gone! As far as volumne we have done well over 6 figures over the years so that wasn't the issue!
they do want lists...of course they said yes.
So, I gave them a little chore to find me a nice MS65, 1887 Morgan Dollar (graded of course). Never heard
back even though they have a huge ebay presence and have sold at least three of this grade/date on ebay.
So, after a few months I again asked if they could find me a decent 1853 quarter about EF or so. (easy
to find coin). Never heard a peep. After about a year of silence I asked about my want list...oh, we still
are looking for your coins was the response.
bob
First, a dealer really needs to know you to know what is going to target your sweet spot for an item on your list.
Second, I don't wanna feel compelled to buy a coin because a dealer thinks it matches my want list item.
however, when all the stars align and a match is made, it always feels like a great plan.
<< <i>Saved search's have made them obsolete IMO.
By that I mean we all have broader areas available to us now.
Or a Google search looks farther than most dealers ever roam.
Hear's a coin that most people think is fairly common, an 1875-P Twenty Cent Piece in MS-64 or 65 (NOT Proof) that has not been dipped. I've tried Google, major auctions, regional and national shows, and want lists for over a year and still have nothing. One dealer had one on his website. Within a few hours he had 28 requests for the coin. I was one of the 27 that missed out on it.
Maybe you are using a different Google from the one I'm using. It has never worked for me when it comes to something that is really hard to find.
Pissing away small amounts of time and (shipping) money are part of the due diligence process . . . .
A dealer is taking a shot at you because he knew you wanted it? Why else would he contact you at all????? . . .
You can be sure you'll have to pay close to bid, even 25% over ask. If you want service, you have to pay for it. Both the "eye" and the attention. If you don't like the coin, return it. Explain what you liked and didn't to a staff numismatist. It might change your next order. Or move on, but ask first. You'll learn a lot by the "wrong (for you)" answers people give you. Service is a dialogue, not an event. If you're simply being charged 15% too much for a coin you must have, smile when you write the check. . .
Any seasoned professional coin dealer, except in his/her weakest moments, considers "spite-bidding" a waste of time and energy. My competitors on any particular lot may be my partners or customers on the next one. YMMV but online bidding means I have little idea who the bidder is. There is no more "reading the room" for whom in the crowd stands out.
"Country auctions", you're on your own. A lot of dogs in that manger.
I live two hours from Philly, around which there are quite a number of local auction houses supplied by consignments from a high-end demographic. Between driving and "too well covered", I participate little. A good friend from LI called me up one day and said "You're closer. Go look at the 09-O $5 at A-------'s".
The day before the sale, Bob's eyes popped when he saw me walk in. Frankie's brows wrinkled as we passed each other at the front door. That night, yet another dealer, for whom local auction means WVA to Maine, called and invited me to "join". I responded that I'd been sent by someone who, as a pre-condition to my involvement, forbade 3-way splits for this specific lot. "No matter" I was told. "You will never fish in this pond unless you go along. "WE" will outbid you on everything". To which I replied
1) Great. That means I can shill bid for any one of you if he doesn't want to the rest of you to know he's the consignor.
2) Or I can hire a consignor and shill my own coin.
3) And if a specific customer had a retail interest in this coin beyond purely pecuniary, what would they do with a coin at 30% over market except for my private "secret customer" if I stopped and they won?
4) Bid on the phone? Or should I hire a local attorney for $125hr to sit three rows away from me and taking bidding instructions via text or app?
5) Or maybe they could just bid what they think it's worth.
5a) It's a treat to listen to someone sputtering and muttering so passionately.
I bid about $11,500 all-in on the phone. "THEY" topped me and made about $1100 (split at least 5 ways) when the coin graded "55". And I was told "THEY" hoped that I'd learned my lesson. Both "teams" were quite smug about the result.
I hear it's worse on ebay.....
If you work a bit, you can find a specialist who offers good service within their niche. Expect more good stuff than disappointments.
In honor of the memory of Cpl. Michael E. Thompson
<< <i>Perhaps I would be more respectful in my response, but the lack of seriousness in your "effort" is appalling. Tried it once? >>
That's precisely the point on his question. He has only tried it once and wants to know if it is really worth putting in more effort.
They are also my closest collecting partners. And from this I take away that the relationship could have a lot to do with the success of a want list.
My collecting interests are extremely eclectic and most "fresh" material comes from private sales of metal detectorists a continent away, so I almost never have first dibs.
1. The list was ignored. This was not an infrequent event.
2. Items on the list were actively sought after. Prices quoted were high as most of the coins offered were from another dealer's stock which meant you were paying for two markups.
3. If the mistake of including common items on the want list was made many were offered and, unfortunately, due to more enthusiasm than sense, many were purchased. When it came time to sell, no one wanted them and they were sold at a BIG loss.
All I was trying to do was help.
Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre minds.-Albert Einstein
<< <i>Years ago,I went to a show and asked some dealers if they were looking for any specific coins for their inventory.All I got from them was side-to-side shaking heads and the words "not really."
All I was trying to do was help.
I don't know what you might have reasonably expected. If some random person comes up to me and asks such a question, what am I supposed to do? Do I divulge to this person the difficult coins my clients need? I don't see the upside to asking dealers for what might be considered confidential information, albeit anonymized. However, if you instead had a large number of coins with you for sale then you might have told each dealer what your inventory was heaviest in so that it could save time.
In honor of the memory of Cpl. Michael E. Thompson
<< <i>I have one want list sitting with Angel Dees and they have worked it successfully for 10 years . Many of the pieces I need are close to impossible to find. Alynne works the want list every show diligently.
They are also my closest collecting partners. And from this I take away that the relationship could have a lot to do with the success of a want list. >>
This is how, in my opinion, a want list can function successfully. I can't think of many top collections that were ever assembled without plenty of help.
<< <i>Walkerfan, I think your perception of want lists is skewed towards the negative. In reality, they are mutually beneficial to both you and your dealer if the dealer is working right. First, if you have a want list with a good dealer who understands your eye, likes, dislikes and preferences, there is a good chance you will get first shot at coins. If you are reasonable and not looking for a shot upgrade coin at a dreck price you should be ok. Letting them know what you are looking for should not cause them to charge you more. In fact it could save you money. If I am at a show and I can get a coin on memo for a customer, I will flip it for 5-10% no matter how great of a deal I get on the coin. Any dealer worth dealing with will value the long term value of you as a customer. If you are concerned about someone bidding against you in auction, pay them a few percent to represent you, then they won't bid against you. Again, if you are a good customer to someone, you are something to value. Lastly, there is nothing that says that if a dealer puts a want list coin in front of you, you have to buy it. If they are putting crappy coins in front of you, look elsewhere. If you consistently reject coins, they will drop you as fast as you drop them so it never becomes a problem. >>
Thanks, great advice. I'm liable to try it again.
Sometimes, it’s better to be LUCKY than good. 🍀 🍺👍
My Full Walker Registry Set (1916-1947):
https://www.ngccoin.com/registry/competitive-sets/16292/
<< <i>Walkerfan, I think your perception of want lists is skewed towards the negative. In reality, they are mutually beneficial to both you and your dealer if the dealer is working right. First, if you have a want list with a good dealer who understands your eye, likes, dislikes and preferences, there is a good chance you will get first shot at coins. If you are reasonable and not looking for a shot upgrade coin at a dreck price you should be ok. Letting them know what you are looking for should not cause them to charge you more. In fact it could save you money. If I am at a show and I can get a coin on memo for a customer, I will flip it for 5-10% no matter how great of a deal I get on the coin. Any dealer worth dealing with will value the long term value of you as a customer. If you are concerned about someone bidding against you in auction, pay them a few percent to represent you, then they won't bid against you. Again, if you are a good customer to someone, you are something to value. Lastly, there is nothing that says that if a dealer puts a want list coin in front of you, you have to buy it. If they are putting crappy coins in front of you, look elsewhere. If you consistently reject coins, they will drop you as fast as you drop them so it never becomes a problem. >>
This is the difference between retail and wholesale. My "retail" and I work on the same wholesale basis. All 1 of them. . .
<< <i>
<< <i>Walkerfan, I think your perception of want lists is skewed towards the negative. In reality, they are mutually beneficial to both you and your dealer if the dealer is working right. First, if you have a want list with a good dealer who understands your eye, likes, dislikes and preferences, there is a good chance you will get first shot at coins. If you are reasonable and not looking for a shot upgrade coin at a dreck price you should be ok. Letting them know what you are looking for should not cause them to charge you more. In fact it could save you money. If I am at a show and I can get a coin on memo for a customer, I will flip it for 5-10% no matter how great of a deal I get on the coin. Any dealer worth dealing with will value the long term value of you as a customer. If you are concerned about someone bidding against you in auction, pay them a few percent to represent you, then they won't bid against you. Again, if you are a good customer to someone, you are something to value. Lastly, there is nothing that says that if a dealer puts a want list coin in front of you, you have to buy it. If they are putting crappy coins in front of you, look elsewhere. If you consistently reject coins, they will drop you as fast as you drop them so it never becomes a problem. >>
This is the difference between retail and wholesale. My "retail" and I work on the same wholesale basis. All 1 of them. . .
CJ, your post makes absolutely no sense. Who are you calling a dork? Me, for wanting to know about people's experiences and for wanting to work closer with dealers? Or Greeniejr for treating his customers fairly and honestly?
Sometimes, it’s better to be LUCKY than good. 🍀 🍺👍
My Full Walker Registry Set (1916-1947):
https://www.ngccoin.com/registry/competitive-sets/16292/
<< <i>Walkerfan, you do realize CJ is a psychiatrist by training. Trying to understand him is like trying to understand the essence of the human mind. It is far beyond the abilities of mere mortals. >>
Okay, I wasn't aware of that----I guess that explains it. LOL
Sometimes, it’s better to be LUCKY than good. 🍀 🍺👍
My Full Walker Registry Set (1916-1947):
https://www.ngccoin.com/registry/competitive-sets/16292/
But my humor often doesn't translate well onto the written page.
Explaining a joke just kills the humor, don't it? . . . .
On the other hand, not knowing what's been right under your nose for under a 1000+ post is, to me, inexcusable. My contempt for that laziness was expressed way earlier.
Posting here on this Forum are easily be a dozen generalist and specialist dealers with national reputations for technical skill, ethics and service. And all vetted for these qualities far more than sufficiently by the Forum's consensual respect for and attention to them. How many of them have been contacted, seen your want list? . . .
<< <i>Actually, I was calling myself out on being a
But my humor often doesn't translate well onto the written page.
Explaining a joke just kills the humor, don't it? . . . .
On the other hand, not knowing what's been right under your nose for under a 1000+ post is, to me, inexcusable. My contempt for that laziness was expressed way earlier.
Posting here on this Forum are easily be a dozen generalist and specialist dealers with national reputations for technical skill, ethics and service. And all vetted for these qualities far more than sufficiently by the Forum's consensual respect for and attention to them. How many of them have been contacted, seen your want list? . . .
I considered the fact that maybe you were referring to yourself but then I dismissed it and assumed otherwise....I shouldn't assume. I am sorry. Not many have seen my list, although I have some potentials in mind that I have worked with and respect. I wanted to get other's opinions first.
Sometimes, it’s better to be LUCKY than good. 🍀 🍺👍
My Full Walker Registry Set (1916-1947):
https://www.ngccoin.com/registry/competitive-sets/16292/
Regarding pricing, if I find a want list coin that is priced reasonably enough that I'd be willing to stock it, then I just buy it. If the customer does not want it for whatever reason, that's totally fine...I have added a nice coin to my inventory. If I find a want list coin that I would not be willing to stock, either due to price or the look, then I will contact the customer and let them know about the piece. I'll give them a description and my opinion of the piece along with the price, and they can decide if they want me to buy it for them or not. We have zero expectations of our want list customers if we find a coin that is on their list.
While I've done clinical treatment, I don't have an MD. Early on, I worked in two psychiatric hospitals. In both instances, I was very conscientious in carrying the keys to get me into and (especially) out of the locked ward, plus the photo-id that proved I was entitled to them.
While everyone else on the staff could laugh about having had days like that, only the psychiatrists found no humor in it at all. . . . .
I only do compassion when I'm out of uniform . . . . .