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PF70 vs MS70

cointosscointoss Posts: 4
in U.S. Coin Forum
I'm hoping someone can clear up my confusion over the difference between PF70 and MS70.

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  • AA1Coins4FunAA1Coins4Fun Posts: 13
    PF = Proof
    MS = Mint State

    Proof is a method of manufacture where the dies are specially prepared and polished to give the coins a highly reflective field and frosty devices as well as greater detail and stronger strike.

    A Mint State (or sometimes referred to as a circulating strike) is a coin that is made using regular dies that are not specially prepared and are intended to enter into circulation as legal tender. MS coins can have, at times a "proof like" appearance when they have been freshly polished.

    The term "circulating strike" does not always apply as there are many coins today that are not intended to ever enter into circulation ( American Gold Eagle, American Silver Eagle, Gold Buffalo, Platinum Eagle, etc.. ) yet they are made using the circulating strike method.


    Maybe that was close enough...

  • joeykoinsjoeykoins Posts: 15,707 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Obviously, The Proof is more likely to reach that plateau of excellency only because of the care and less traveled, so to speak. The way I look at Proofs compared to the poor Circulated is as the rich boy that was born into the money will far more be likely to be successful in life than the not so lucky poor boy that was brought up in poverty! image

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  • derrybderryb Posts: 36,777 ✭✭✭✭✭
    On the other hand, the highly reflective surfaces of the proof coin make it hard to achieve the perfect, no flaws, 70 grade.



    << <i>I'm hoping someone can clear up my confusion over the difference between PF70 and MS70. >>


    The letter designators indicate the type of strike the mint used to manufacture the coin while the numbers indicate a 1-70 grade assigned to the coin by a third party after it left the mint. It is near impossible to achieve a grade of 70 on a coin that has been left unprotected since it was struck. Best way to see the difference between proof and business strike (MS) is to set them down next to each other. Proofs are not struck for use (circulation) while business strikes are mostly (business strike collector coins being the exception) struck for use in commerce.

    The difference is the use of polished dies and stricter quality control in the striking of the proof coin.

    "Interest rates, the price of money, are the most important market. And, perversely, they’re the market that’s most manipulated by the Fed." - Doug Casey

  • BillJonesBillJones Posts: 33,948 ✭✭✭✭✭
    You can locate a modern PR-70 graded coin with a modest amount of effort and sometimes for a good less than a small fortune.

    On the other hand a true MS-70 is almost as scarce as hen's teeth, and you pay a very high price for it.

    Most mints to get much greater lengths to make Proof coins as nice as possible. It not only involves the method of manufacture but also the way the coins are handled after they are made. An effort is made to keep Proof coins from hitting and rubbing against each other after they have been struck. No such efforts are made for Mint State or business strike coins. They are struck as quickly as possible using lower quality standards. Then they are thrown together in bags and rub against each other. That is one of the reasons why MS-70 coins are so rare.
    Retired dealer and avid collector of U.S. type coins, 19th century presidential campaign medalets and selected medals. In recent years I have been working on a set of British coins - at least one coin from each king or queen who issued pieces that are collectible. I am also collecting at least one coin for each Roman emperor from Julius Caesar to ... ?
  • derrybderryb Posts: 36,777 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Bill, while I agree with the "true" MS70 outlook, the grading companies confuse the issue by awarding so many "un-true" MS70s. Another consideration has to be given to the fact that so many more business strike (MS) coins are created, and submitted for grading, than are proof coins. When viewing 70 pops on either, one has to consider mintage numbers are very much higher on business strikes, creating a larger pool of potential 70s.

    "Interest rates, the price of money, are the most important market. And, perversely, they’re the market that’s most manipulated by the Fed." - Doug Casey

  • TopographicOceansTopographicOceans Posts: 6,535 ✭✭✭✭
    PF is the abbreviation used by NGC and ANACS, while PCGS uses PR for proofs.
    As stated, Mint State is used for business strikes.
  • OperationButterOperationButter Posts: 1,672 ✭✭✭
    Or just receive a proof with MS on the label, best of both worlds?

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  • derrybderryb Posts: 36,777 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>PF is the abbreviation used by NGC and ANACS, while PCGS uses PR for proofs.
    As stated, Mint State is used for business strikes. >>



    Good point. And we also have SP being use for some business strikes. PCGS just changed from MS to an SP designator for the 2015 W mint mark business strike, collector (burnished uncirculated) gold and silver eagles.

    The OP should understand that the Mint creates business strike coins and it creates proof coins. Grading companies determine the label designation as well as the numerical grade after the fact.

    "Interest rates, the price of money, are the most important market. And, perversely, they’re the market that’s most manipulated by the Fed." - Doug Casey

  • OverdateOverdate Posts: 7,007 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i> . . . An effort is made to keep Proof coins from hitting and rubbing against each other after they have been struck. No such efforts are made for Mint State or business strike coins. >>


    Except for bullion coins and commems in what the Mint describes as "uncirculated" finish. They are generally protected and packaged with as much care as proofs. I think these "uncirculated" coins are actually matte proofs.

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  • derrybderryb Posts: 36,777 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>

    << <i> . . . An effort is made to keep Proof coins from hitting and rubbing against each other after they have been struck. No such efforts are made for Mint State or business strike coins. >>


    Except for bullion coins and commems in what the Mint describes as "uncirculated" finish. They are generally protected and packaged with as much care as proofs. I think these "uncirculated" coins are actually matte proofs. >>


    These, including the proofs, are considered by the mint to be "collector coins" - coins created specifically for collectors and sold by the mint directly to collectors. Mint collector coins normally come from the mint in a clear mint capsule or other protective device/packaging. I encourage the OP to visit the US Mint website to get an idea of the collector coins that are available to the public.

    "Interest rates, the price of money, are the most important market. And, perversely, they’re the market that’s most manipulated by the Fed." - Doug Casey

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