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Should PCGS include NG0 (no-grade) in their population reports?

jessewvujessewvu Posts: 5,065 ✭✭✭✭✭
in U.S. Coin Forum
I think it would be VERY interesting if they did... What you would use that information for, I have no idea. At a minimum, it would show how many of the coins they have looked at. It would not show how many of those have been through the system multiple times.

Comments

  • DavideoDavideo Posts: 1,363 ✭✭✭✭
    Interesting thought. Would counterfeits be included in this no-grade list?
  • messydeskmessydesk Posts: 20,077 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Might be interesting, but I don't know how useful it would be. Both a QT that's otherwise MS66 and a filed, bent, burned, tooled, spindled VG are no-grades. I think number of counterfeits seen would be interesting too and perhaps more useful, but usually when looking at a population report, I want to see clean data that doesn't have to be interpreted differently depending on what column it's in. It would probably be best if this data were available, but not shown along with the pop report.
    John
    Keeper of the VAM Catalog • Professional Coin Imaging • Prime Number Set • World Coins in Early America • British Trade Dollars • Variety Attribution
  • LindeDadLindeDad Posts: 18,766 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Too much data of no use, is worse than incorrect data as it is now.

    image
    My Current project....https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/mysetregistry/album/160794
  • johnny9434johnny9434 Posts: 28,638 ✭✭✭✭✭
    no, it would already complicate matters more. just saying
  • mozinmozin Posts: 8,755 ✭✭✭


    << <i>no, it would already complicate matters more. just saying >>

    image
    I collect Capped Bust series by variety in PCGS AU/MS grades.
  • MadMartyMadMarty Posts: 16,697 ✭✭✭
    I want a slab with a NG0 grade!!!
    It is not exactly cheating, I prefer to consider it creative problem solving!!!

  • LanceNewmanOCCLanceNewmanOCC Posts: 19,999 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>Too much data of no use, is worse than incorrect data as it is now.

    image >>


    +1

    we've beaten this horse to smithereens on this forum. i used to think it may be a good idea until i realized it would be less than useless. i sure wish it could

    be done and actually have more than a 1% accuracy rating. image
    .

    <--- look what's behind the mask! - cool link 1/NO ~ 2/NNP ~ 3/NNC ~ 4/CF ~ 5/PG ~ 6/Cert ~ 7/NGC 7a/NGC pop~ 8/NGCF ~ 9/HA archives ~ 10/PM ~ 11/NM ~ 12/ANACS cert ~ 13/ANACS pop - report fakes 1/ACEF ~ report fakes/thefts 1/NCIS - Numi-Classes SS ~ Bass ~ Transcribed Docs NNP - clashed coins - error training - V V mm styles -

  • Cougar1978Cougar1978 Posts: 8,426 ✭✭✭✭✭
    no - absolutely not
    Coins & Currency
  • jessewvujessewvu Posts: 5,065 ✭✭✭✭✭
    They assign NG0 coins a certification number, I think it would be pretty easy to add them into that database. I also think the folks that are REALLY opposed to it are the non-modern coin collectors.
  • morgandollar1878morgandollar1878 Posts: 4,006 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I am torn between yes and no, but leaning toward no because I think most would get cracked out anyway if they got an NG0 on the holder. I like the idea because you could get an idea of how many problem coins come in for grading.
    Instagram: nomad_numismatics
  • BochimanBochiman Posts: 25,460 ✭✭✭✭✭
    No.
    No.
    No.

    I've been told I tolerate fools poorly...that may explain things if I have a problem with you. Current ebay items - Nothing at the moment

  • AnalystAnalyst Posts: 1,438 ✭✭✭

    Davideo: << Would counterfeits be included in this no-grade list? >>

    Unless I misunderstood the suggestion, the proposed additions to the population data would be respective totals of the coins of each date or major variety that are in PCGS 'Genuine' holders.

    'No Grade' coins should be included. Such additional data would be useful in formulating estimates of rarity. In some series, there are more 'not gradable' coins of particular dates. In my recent research regarding 1801 halves, I found that an unusually large portion of survivors are not gradable. In reference to a discussion in another thread, an unusually large number of 1839 Quarter Eagles, in contrast to other Classic Head QEs, are not gradable and thus do not 'show up' in population reports.

    1801 Draped Bust, Heraldic Eagle Half Dollars
    "In order to understand the scarce coins that you own or see, you must learn about coins that you cannot afford." -Me
  • ambro51ambro51 Posts: 13,847 ✭✭✭✭✭
    They will never do this. Seeing the vast numbers of "Rejects" would greatly discourage people from submitting coins.
  • AnalystAnalyst Posts: 1,438 ✭✭✭


    Ambro: <<They will never do this. Seeing the vast numbers of "Rejects" would greatly discourage people from submitting coins. >>

    I acknowledged above that I may have misunderstood the suggestion. If so, I am sorry. I hope that the proposed additions to the population data would be respective totals of the coins of each date or major variety that are in PCGS 'Genuine' holders.

    I do not believe that, in general, revealing the number of coins placed in PCGS 'Genuine' holders would discourage submissions. For 1799 large cents or 1901-S quarters, people would expect that there are substantial numbers in 'Genuine' holders as these are keys needed for sets. For most classic U.S. coin issues, there probably are not vast numbers in PCGS 'Genuine' holders.

    I do not think that PCGS officials, dealers or collectors should be concerned about such information being revealed. The benefits outweigh the costs; such information would help with figuring estimates of rarity and with pedigree research. There are also people who cannot afford gradable keys to some series. They would like more information about coins in PCGS 'Genuine' holders.

    Although I dream about the finest known 1794 half, I would very much like to know more about the 1794 halves in PCGS Genuine holders. Such information is important for research and to a lot of collectors who would like to own a 1794 half.

    [L=Finest Known 1794 Half Dollar, PCGS graded MS-64]http://www.coinweek.com/us-coins/the-marvelous-pogue-family-coin-collection-part-3-finest-known-1794-half-dollar/
    "In order to understand the scarce coins that you own or see, you must learn about coins that you cannot afford." -Me
  • DIMEMANDIMEMAN Posts: 22,403 ✭✭✭✭✭
    YES

    YES

    YES

    It would be nice to see if details coins have been made......but not fakes.

    I also think the points given to coins in the Registry set should be changed. Now all detailed coins get 1 point...1 POINT!!! It's silly for a nice lightly cleaned graded "UNC Details" and gets 1 POINT!!!

    Maybe give half.....like 30 for an UNC....20 for XF and so on.
  • SmEagle1795SmEagle1795 Posts: 2,178 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Absolutely yes. It will give a much more accurate view into variety populations, a better feel on overall rarity, and a way of fighting coin doctors that "fix" problems (if the NG coins were also photographed). In some cases, today's problems are tomorrow's "market acceptable", and a more complete record of the corpus of coinage really can't hurt.

    It should not, however, include counterfeit coins - just genuine, not gradable coins. And, a price should not be assigned to problem coins as there is far too much variability between each type of problem to quantify in a non-misleading manner.
    Learn about our world's shared history told through the first millennium of coinage: Colosseo Collection
  • stevebensteveben Posts: 4,620 ✭✭✭✭✭
    yes, i would like to see how many details grades there are. i think that population number would be useful along with auction data as well.
  • jcpingjcping Posts: 2,649 ✭✭✭
    Not a bad idea since it is another info to find out survival rate image
    an SLQ and Ike dollars lover
  • 19Lyds19Lyds Posts: 26,491 ✭✭✭✭
    No. Coins which cannot be graded have no business being in the pops. The US Mint released mintages account for them.
    I decided to change calling the bathroom the John and renamed it the Jim. I feel so much better saying I went to the Jim this morning.



    The name is LEE!
  • AnalystAnalyst Posts: 1,438 ✭✭✭

    19Lyds: <<Coins which cannot be graded have no business being in the pops. The US Mint released mintages account for them.>>

    What? Mintage figures are sometimes wrong and are often misleading. Mint records say that thousands of business strike 1804 dollars were minted in 1804; the records do not mention that these were probably dated 1803, if indeed any were really struck in 1804.

    What about the mintage record that says that 100,000 1895 'mint state' Morgans were produced?

    Would 19Lyds figure that 1847-O quarters and 1870-S silver dollars do not exist because there are no known mintage records?

    There are no formal mintage figures for Proof coins before the 1850s.

    The Controversy over 1841 Quarter Eagles, Part 1

    insightful10@gmail.com
    "In order to understand the scarce coins that you own or see, you must learn about coins that you cannot afford." -Me
  • jessewvujessewvu Posts: 5,065 ✭✭✭✭✭
    From a modern coin perspective, it would be exceedingly useful to determine how "rare" 70's are. If a coin can be returned without a grade, say lower than 69, then we would never know and might assume that a coin has a 50% grade through for 70's. If we had info that 30% of coins did not grade at minimum a 69, that would indicate the grade through was drastically different.

    i say give me the data and let me draw my own conclusions.
  • dbldie55dbldie55 Posts: 7,735 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Yes, at least in the case of varieties. For some, it would be nice to see if they have looked at any of them.
    Collector and Researcher of Liberty Head Nickels. ANA LM-6053
  • lkeigwinlkeigwin Posts: 16,892 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Sure...crack outs skew the numbers. But I would enjoy seeing how many of a truly rare variety have graded versus how many BB'd.
    Lance.
    Coin Photography Services / Everyman Registry set / BHNC #213
  • nealeffendinealeffendi Posts: 40 ✭

    @19Lyds said:
    No. Coins which cannot be graded have no business being in the pops. The US Mint released mintages account for them.

    The population report is NOT just for US coins. For most countries there is often no reliable mintage figures and often only a limited knowledge of what coins were minted. Often foreign coins are not gradable and as an example most older Ottoman coins that have survived have either been buried (and cleaned) or survived as (pierced) charms on belly dancer costumes or necklaces. I have about a dozen Ottoman gold coins and every one has been pierced (code 86 if I slab them), I'd like to slab one of them because the total known mintage is 1 so unless another example ever turns up the population report will forever show Zero unless I get it slabbed by NGC (who do publish the Details grade coin population).

  • coin4salecoin4sale Posts: 375 ✭✭✭

    THIS:

    FROM DIMEMAN"

    "YES...

    It would be nice to see if details coins have been made......

    I also think the points given to coins in the Registry set should be changed. Now all detailed coins get 1 point...1 POINT!!! It's silly for a nice lightly cleaned graded "UNC Details" and gets 1 POINT!!!

    Maybe give half.....like 30 for an UNC....20 for XF and so on"

    I TOO BELIEVE THIS INFO SHOULD BE MADE AVAILABLE, - EVEN IF IT IS A SEPARATE PAGE OR LINK ON COIN FACTS, AND NOT MIXED WITH THE GRADED POPS ( SO IF YOU WANT TO SEE IT CLICK IT, IF NOT DONT).

    IT WOULD BE NICE TO KNOW THE # OF EACH TYPE OF "DEFECT" WITHIN EACH GRADE TOO.

    I BELIEVE THE MORE DATA POINTS THE BETTER. USE THEM IF YOU CARE, DISREGARD IF YOU DONT!

    FOR EXAMPLE : ASSUME A COIN XYZ HAS A TOTAL POP OF 2000 STRAIGHT GRADED IN NUMERICAL GRADES IN ALL GRADES AND ANOTHER 800 IN NO GRADES. AND ASSUME FOR SAKE OF ARGUMENT THAT THE NO GRADES WERE SUBDIVIDED AS 500 CLEANED, 200 DAMAGE, 50 QUESTIONABLE TONING, AND 50 MISC. OTHER NO GRADES.

    NOW, IF YOU SUBMIT COIN XYZ AND IT COMES BACK XF DETAIL, "CLEANED" YOU SEE YOUR COIN IS IN GOOD COMPANY. AND IF IT IS AMONGST THE HIGHEST GRADED "NO GRADE" WITH THIS DEFECT PERHAPS ITS VALUE CAN BE MORE ACCURATELY GAUGED.

    I ALSO THINK DIMEMAN IS CORRECT WHEN HE SAYS THAT POINT SYSTEM FOR DETAILED COINS SHOULD BE MODIFIED IN REGISTRY SETS. 1 POINT ACROSS THE BOARD IS NOT EQUITABLE. AN AU DETAILS QT, SHOULD PULL MORE WEIGHT THAN A VG WITH EDGE DAMAGE...

    SORRY FOR THE CAPS ALL (KEYBOARD ISSUE!_

    BT&C
  • rickoricko Posts: 98,724 ✭✭✭✭✭

    If it were in a separate column, I think it could be informative - allowing rarity/survival estimates..... Most of the figures are inaccurate anyway due to crackouts/resubmissions ..... Cheers, RickO

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