Oops: posted in this in the other thread that Broadstruck reference by mistake:
Wow, I missed the first thread on this coin. To ask a question unrelated to the ripoff and resulting drama,
Are chopped trade dollars included in the unchopped pop reports? Looking quickly at coin facts, it appears that perhaps they are, only one pop report that includes both. If so his means that this is a registry coin, and under the theory that some people buy top pops for their registry regardless what it looks like, the chop would not matter in the price.
A few years ago, I was taking a look at the pricing of chopped trades, in the lower price ranges, and I came to the conclusion that it was a lot like toning, "eye appealing chops" could sell for full unchopped prices.
That did not take long. Thanks for posting this TDN.
For those that saw the previous thread, you may recall what the clients paid. In a recent conversation with the dealer who sold this coin to my client, they "claimed" to have purchased the coin themselves for over $20,000. The interesting part of that conversation is that I had to explain the significance of the chop mark to that dealer, as they did not know the chop mark would exclude the coins use in a standard registry set. I am not asking anyone to believe this or not, just sharing the narrative.
Faced with only one auction record from 2004 that shows this coin selling for over $7,000 and with no other commercial price guides available (Nothing personal TDN), I cannot in good faith tell my client that the coin is worth only the $4,000 as some have stated it should sell for. Be my client for a moment. Without evidence would you believe that?
So having thought about this for some time, I have decided to market the coin at the price they have paid and for the first time added the "OBO" to my Collectors Corner Ad. It is through the process of receiving offers I can assure my client as to what the actual and real expectations should be. Should we not get any offers we are comfortable accepting, the coin will find it's way into an auction as some time in the future.
This is the fairest most forthright way I figured this should be handled. If anyone else has any ideas, please share them.
Clearly this coin is interesting in that it is a Top Pop, a Key Date AND Chop marked.
MLAeBayNumismatics: "The greatest hobby in the world!"
<< <i>TThe interesting part of that conversation is that I had to explain the significance of the chop mark to that dealer, as they did not know the chop mark would exclude the coins use in a standard registry set.
Clearly this coin is interesting in that it is a Top Pop, a Key Date AND Chop marked. >>
Ok, answers my question about the registry, which I dont do. My opinion (since you asked ) is that this sounds like what I have heard error dealers refer to as a "White Elephant", a key date coin that is also a significant error. Error collectors dont want it since its too expensive when priced as a key date. Key date collectors dont want it since its a error, and not fully representative of the key date.
My impression without a lot of research, given TDNs estimate of price for this coin non chopmarked at $30k, If I was a buyer interested in trade dollars in these grade ranges a price of maybe $15 to $20k would be interesting. I would have to weigh the discount against how easily I could sell it if I wanted to do that in the future. You would have to find the right buyer, someone interested in high grade chopmarked coins.
<< <i>That did not take long. Thanks for posting this TDN.
For those that saw the previous thread, you may recall what the clients paid. In a recent conversation with the dealer who sold this coin to my client, they "claimed" to have purchased the coin themselves for over $20,000. The interesting part of that conversation is that I had to explain the significance of the chop mark to that dealer, as they did not know the chop mark would exclude the coins use in a standard registry set. I am not asking anyone to believe this or not, just sharing the narrative.
Faced with only one auction record from 2004 that shows this coin selling for over $7,000 and with no other commercial price guides available (Nothing personal TDN), I cannot in good faith tell my client that the coin is worth only the $4,000 as some have stated it should sell for. Be my client for a moment. Without evidence would you believe that?
So having thought about this for some time, I have decided to market the coin at the price they have paid and for the first time added the "OBO" to my Collectors Corner Ad. It is through the process of receiving offers I can assure my client as to what the actual and real expectations should be. Should we not get any offers we are comfortable accepting, the coin will find it's way into an auction as some time in the future.
This is the fairest most forthright way I figured this should be handled. If anyone else has any ideas, please share them.
Clearly this coin is interesting in that it is a Top Pop, a Key Date AND Chop marked. >>
I understand your logic, but unfortunately it can be slightly faulty in assisting you in getting the results you are seeking. Sometimes a coin can be so ridiculously overpriced so as not to warrant the time and attention to forward a fair and decent offer.
Edited to add: At the level of asking price you may have placed yourself in such a category and thus "turn off" and eliminate a positive and prospective buyer.
It's a tough sell IMHO and, if I collected these, I wouldn't touch it. That being said $10-15K sounds like a decent price for the right buyer. Ultimately, putting it up for auction would likely be the best option, then the market can decide what it's truly worth today.
“I may not believe in myself but I believe in what I’m doing” ~Jimmy Page~
Just to point out- this coin was bought back by the consignor in 2004 for 7k Which means he had to run up the bid otherwise it would have brought minimum $250-500 less.
<< <i>did the invoice for what they paid (~20K) ever materialize? can you out the seller?
the reason i ask is that i think some dealers are prone to selling chop marked trades for the price of non-chop marked, if it behooves them. >>
Clearly a possibility. but contrary to most I tend to give people the benefit of the doubt unless I have evidence to the contrary, not the lack thereof.
That's just me.
MLAeBayNumismatics: "The greatest hobby in the world!"
<< <i>At such a price gap, you may receive very few serious offers >>
By serious you mean ones that I would accept? I fully believe that everyone who has made an offer, and there has been a few, would complete the transaction if I accepted.
Thanks,
MLAeBayNumismatics: "The greatest hobby in the world!"
<< <i>At such a price gap, you may receive very few serious offers >>
By serious you mean ones that I would accept? I fully believe that everyone who has made an offer, and there has been a few, would complete the transaction if I accepted.
I think the coin is awesome. For any ~140 year old US coin to survive in mint state 64 is exceptional.
But that coin didn't just sit in a canvas bag on a vault floor, and it didn't sit in a coin cabinet in a dusty library to be examined once a decade by an academic with cotton gloves.
That coin traveled 8,000 miles--one third of the way around the globe--before getting punched with a hammer. And then it made the 8,000 mile return trip! Not in a flip, not in a cointainer or a slab, but probably in a keg. And unlike 99% of American coinage, we know that history for a fact. Someone thought that coin was really important and significant, and they made sure to save it for posterity.
It lasted through demonitization, earthquakes, remonitization, meltings, depressions. And it's still judged to be MS64 by PCGS.
Is it worth the asking price? I'm the wrong person to ask. But that coin is hardcore.
We are like children who look at print and see a serpent in the last letter but one, and a sword in the last. --Severian the Lame
<< <i>That did not take long. Thanks for posting this TDN.
For those that saw the previous thread, you may recall what the clients paid. In a recent conversation with the dealer who sold this coin to my client, they "claimed" to have purchased the coin themselves for over $20,000. The interesting part of that conversation is that I had to explain the significance of the chop mark to that dealer, as they did not know the chop mark would exclude the coins use in a standard registry set. I am not asking anyone to believe this or not, just sharing the narrative.
Faced with only one auction record from 2004 that shows this coin selling for over $7,000 and with no other commercial price guides available (Nothing personal TDN), I cannot in good faith tell my client that the coin is worth only the $4,000 as some have stated it should sell for. Be my client for a moment. Without evidence would you believe that?
So having thought about this for some time, I have decided to market the coin at the price they have paid and for the first time added the "OBO" to my Collectors Corner Ad. It is through the process of receiving offers I can assure my client as to what the actual and real expectations should be. Should we not get any offers we are comfortable accepting, the coin will find it's way into an auction as some time in the future.
This is the fairest most forthright way I figured this should be handled. If anyone else has any ideas, please share them.
Clearly this coin is interesting in that it is a Top Pop, a Key Date AND Chop marked. >>
Is it typical to list a client's coin in a registry set with your name on it? Since this is the only coin in the set, I assume it was just recently set up.
From the cert verification.
Current PCGS Registry Sets: This cert is currently in amoloian Set Registry inventory and is featured in one or more sets, including amoloian
<< <i> Ok, answers my question about the registry, which I dont do. My opinion (since you asked ) is that this sounds like what I have heard error dealers refer to as a "White Elephant", a key date coin that is also a significant error. Error collectors dont want it since its too expensive when priced as a key date. Key date collectors dont want it since its a error, and not fully representative of the key date.
My impression without a lot of research, given TDNs estimate of price for this coin non chopmarked at $30k, If I was a buyer interested in trade dollars in these grade ranges a price of maybe $15 to $20k would be interesting. I would have to weigh the discount against how easily I could sell it if I wanted to do that in the future. You would have to find the right buyer, someone interested in high grade chopmarked coins. >>
A lot of good points here. I like the idea of "white elephant", it certainly fits here.
As someone who specializes both in Trade Dollars and chopmarked coins, my estimate for this coin is in the $6-8k range tops. IMO here's what limits the value:
- The biggest driver of value for this coin is the registry. The two biggest registry players (by a mile) have both chimed in and see it much lower. - Yes it's a "key date" but it's not rare. It's not hard to find an S/CC even in mint state, with a little patience. Why would any non-chopmark collectors buy this coin when they can buy a non-chopmarked example without too much effort? - More of these are found every year, even though the variety has been known for a while. I picked a PCGS MS62 chopmarked example off eBay last year, along with a couple XF and AU chopmarked examples. - IMO most who prefer the blast white look, appreciate coins close to mint state as possible. A chopmarked example is the opposite of that. Conversely many collectors who appreciate chopmarks greatly prefer a more original look.
I think it's a really neat coin but the demand for this specific coin, chopmarked and white is just not that high, and nowhere close to the eBay listing. No offense to the listing dealer, I understand the circumstances.
Let me share a personal story that is sort of related. Last year I purchased a 4 figure chopmarked coin in mint state (my estimate is MS63 - resides in PCGS Unc details holder) It's not a Trade Dollar but is US and a true key date. Both the seller and I really agonized over the price, probably the toughest coin to price I've seriously pursued. Unchopmarked the coin is $30-40k. Eventually we settled on a price that matched up with a mid-AU example and both of us were happy. However, there were 2 major differences. 1. The coin I purchased has less than 5 total known in Uncirculated condition, as opposed to the S/CC trade dollar with 50+ known Uncs. and 2. the coin I purchased is really nicely toned with superb eye appeal - a coin that turns heads. Sure it's damaged, but I can always fall back on the demand of a strong collector base for the series that is starved for Unc. examples.
Hope that's helpful, this type of coin can be really really tough to price.
<< <i> Ok, answers my question about the registry, which I dont do. My opinion (since you asked ) is that this sounds like what I have heard error dealers refer to as a "White Elephant", a key date coin that is also a significant error. Error collectors dont want it since its too expensive when priced as a key date. Key date collectors dont want it since its a error, and not fully representative of the key date.
My impression without a lot of research, given TDNs estimate of price for this coin non chopmarked at $30k, If I was a buyer interested in trade dollars in these grade ranges a price of maybe $15 to $20k would be interesting. I would have to weigh the discount against how easily I could sell it if I wanted to do that in the future. You would have to find the right buyer, someone interested in high grade chopmarked coins. >>
A lot of good points here. I like the idea of "white elephant", it certainly fits here.
As someone who specializes both in Trade Dollars and chopmarked coins, my estimate for this coin is in the $6-8k range tops. IMO here's what limits the value:
- The biggest driver of value for this coin is the registry. The two biggest registry players (by a mile) have both chimed in and see it much lower. - Yes it's a "key date" but it's not rare. It's not hard to find an S/CC even in mint state, with a little patience. Why would any non-chopmark collectors buy this coin when they can buy a non-chopmarked example without too much effort? - More of these are found every year, even though the variety has been known for a while. I picked a PCGS MS62 chopmarked example off eBay last year, along with a couple XF and AU chopmarked examples. - IMO most who prefer the blast white look, appreciate coins close to mint state as possible. A chopmarked example is the opposite of that. Conversely many collectors who appreciate chopmarks greatly prefer a more original look.
I think it's a really neat coin but the demand for this specific coin, chopmarked and white is just not that high, and nowhere close to the eBay listing. No offense to the listing dealer, I understand the circumstances.
Let me share a personal story that is sort of related. Last year I purchased a 4 figure chopmarked coin in mint state (my estimate is MS63 - resides in PCGS Unc details holder) It's not a Trade Dollar but is US and a true key date. Both the seller and I really agonized over the price, probably the toughest coin to price I've seriously pursued. Unchopmarked the coin is $30-40k. Eventually we settled on a price that matched up with a mid-AU example and both of us were happy. However, there were 2 major differences. 1. The coin I purchased has less than 5 total known in Uncirculated condition, as opposed to the S/CC trade dollar with 50+ known Uncs. and 2. the coin I purchased is really nicely toned with superb eye appeal - a coin that turns heads. Sure it's damaged, but I can always fall back on the demand of a strong collector base for the series that is starved for Unc. examples.
Hope that's helpful, this type of coin can be really really tough to price. >>
Thanks for your input. You are quoting a price range that is 50-100% HIGHER than some here have stated. I believe they too consider themselves well versed in the area of chopmarked (is it really one word?) Trade Dollars. Either way, it looks like you believe the coin is worth more than the $4,000 that was stated here a few months back. I would be happy to buy it for myself @ $4,000, but doing so could represent a conflict of interest that I would not be comfortable with. I do sincerely appreciate you taking the time to post and sharing your thoughts.
MLAeBayNumismatics: "The greatest hobby in the world!"
I believe they too consider themselves well versed in the area of chopmarked (is it really one word?) Trade Dollars. >>
As used here either one word or two words is probably correct. My usual rule of thumb is if the two words are meant to convey a single entity/stand alone thing, I use the combined form.
<< <i>Thanks for your input. You are quoting a price range that is 50-100% HIGHER than some here have stated. I believe they too consider themselves well versed in the area of chopmarked (is it really one word?) Trade Dollars. Either way, it looks like you believe the coin is worth more than the $4,000 that was stated here a few months back. I would be happy to buy it for myself @ $4,000, but doing so could represent a conflict of interest that I would not be comfortable with. I do sincerely appreciate you taking the time to post and sharing your thoughts. >>
To be clear my guesstimate is just a SWAG. Knowing that one of the major players is 50% lower likely means my number is too high. I think past auction history was likely a speculative play hoping for resale to one of the registry participants, so yeah, my estimate is probably high. Then again, your "clients" paid almost $30k so who knows.
Just because a few of us are fond of chopmarks doesn't mean we have market pricing pegged outside of what each of us would pay. Only way to truly find out is to put it up for auction again.
This thread is intriguing to say the least. Love it
Mark
Walker Proof Digital Album Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
I find it a bit ironic that you note the ridiculous price paid by the current owner and then go ahead and list the coin for a similarly ridiculous price. If someone actually bought the coin and you buried them in it how would you respond?
The more appropriate approach to proving to the consignor that it is worth substancially less than they believe is to not represent them if they insist on listing the coin for such an astronomical price or to instead have them put the coin into a Heritage auction with an appropriate reserve. Im guessing the latter wouldnt work as Heritage wouldn't accept the reserve at the current asking price.
Debating the value of the coin, $4000, $7000 seems like a constructive debate. $28k! Really!
...completely disregarding the fact that this is a Make An Offer situation...
The Coin Police are here...to protect the innocent you shall set your asking price to an "appropriate" level. In the future please seek our guidance as to value before posting new items. We've spent mega bucks on coins and clearly know when enough's enough. Thank you.
<< <i>...completely disregarding the fact that this is a Make An Offer situation...
The Coin Police are here...to protect the innocent you shall set your asking price to an "appropriate" level. In the future please seek our guidance as to value before posting new items. We've spent mega bucks on coins and clearly know when enough's enough. Thank you. >>
Set it at whatever you like, just don't be a hypocrite.
<< <i>...completely disregarding the fact that this is a Make An Offer situation...
The Coin Police are here...to protect the innocent you shall set your asking price to an "appropriate" level. In the future please seek our guidance as to value before posting new items. We've spent mega bucks on coins and clearly know when enough's enough. Thank you. >>
Set it at whatever you like, just don't be a hypocrite. >>
Thank you.
There are two sale prices for this coin. One for $28,000 in 2008 and one for about $7,000+ in 2004. Those are the facts, what are yours again?
MLAeBayNumismatics: "The greatest hobby in the world!"
<< <i>I'd trade my MS62 chop 77CC and my MS61 chop S/CC for it...I have about $400 combined into those two.
Chopmarks are like modern coins - nobody wants to pay retail because they'd rather buy them raw cheap and slab em themselves >>
Bruce, I would agree with you if we are still in 80's. At the time, chop marked Trade Dollars were plenty in Taiwan/Hong Kong, and of course, in China. nevertheless, supply dried up in mid-90's (I had no clue why). They were "modern (aka you could buy it cheap for 1.5X to 2X of bullion price)" but not anymore.
I truly wish I could know that 1875-P CTD is the key date of the series at the time
<< <i>I'd trade my MS62 chop 77CC and my MS61 chop S/CC for it...I have about $400 combined into those two.
Chopmarks are like modern coins - nobody wants to pay retail because they'd rather buy them raw cheap and slab em themselves >>
Bruce, I would agree with you if we are still in 80's. At the time, chop marked Trade Dollars were plenty in Taiwan/Hong Kong, and of course, in China. nevertheless, supply dried up in mid-90's (I had no clue why). They were "modern (aka you could buy it cheap for 1.5X to 2X of bullion price)" but not anymore.
I truly wish I could know that 1875-P CTD is the key date of the series at the time >>
Certainly TD are more popular today than ever, but only a small fraction of chopmarked TDs are in plastic. Ebay produces plenty of MS and AU RAW chopmarked TDs on a regular basis. You just have to know what you're looking at and be quick to pull the trigger.
<< <i>.....There are two sale prices for this coin. One for $28,000 in 2008 and one for about $7,000+ in 2004. Those are the facts, what are yours again? >>
One has to be careful with 2008 pricing as that peaking of the market was full of "whales" who paid big dollars for coins. Many of those whales are now gone (ie not supporting the market). Most coins in the market today don't bring nearly what they sold for in 2008. One could say that prices for many coins have actually retreated back to 2004-2005. I can name several pop top seated coins that are now 1/3 of their 2008 peak values. The real issue is where is the CM trade dollar market today (2004 or 2008 or somewhere else)?
I don't think it's a miracle that this coin did a 16K mile round from China and was stored over the years. There are hundreds (or thousands) of choice unc trade dollars that have survived that same trip....many not receiving any damage.
There are two sale prices for this coin. One for $28,000 in 2008 and one for about $7,000+ in 2004. Those are the facts, what are yours again? >>
Facts? Seems the first sale was just a buyback to create a price level...and there is no substantiation of the second sale.
As a dealer, I couldn't sleep at night if someone hit the BIN price on that coin...I know that one day it would come back to bite me in the arse. I can see the thread title now..,"dealer refuses to buy back coin he buried me in"
Comments
I wonder what it looks like without the spot light ?
<< <i>care to elaborate on its significance? >>
http://forums.collectors.com/messageview.cfm?catid=26&threadid=940685&highlight_key=y&keyword1=1875 s/cc
Now, anyone can ask whatever they want for their coins, but that is essentially un chopped price guide
Lance.
Latin American Collection
Will the Chop detract or add to the total value?
<< <i>It does have a green sticker. >>
Wow, I missed the first thread on this coin. To ask a question unrelated to the ripoff and resulting drama,
Are chopped trade dollars included in the unchopped pop reports? Looking quickly at coin facts, it appears that perhaps they are, only one pop report that includes both. If so his means that this is a registry coin, and under the theory that some people buy top pops for their registry regardless what it looks like, the chop would not matter in the price.
A few years ago, I was taking a look at the pricing of chopped trades, in the lower price ranges, and I came to the conclusion that it was a lot like toning, "eye appealing chops" could sell for full unchopped prices.
For those that saw the previous thread, you may recall what the clients paid. In a recent conversation with the dealer who sold this coin to my client, they "claimed" to have purchased the coin themselves for over $20,000. The interesting part of that conversation is that I had to explain the significance of the chop mark to that dealer, as they did not know the chop mark would exclude the coins use in a standard registry set. I am not asking anyone to believe this or not, just sharing the narrative.
Faced with only one auction record from 2004 that shows this coin selling for over $7,000 and with no other commercial price guides available (Nothing personal TDN), I cannot in good faith tell my client that the coin is worth only the $4,000 as some have stated it should sell for. Be my client for a moment. Without evidence would you believe that?
So having thought about this for some time, I have decided to market the coin at the price they have paid and for the first time added the "OBO" to my Collectors Corner Ad. It is through the process of receiving offers I can assure my client as to what the actual and real expectations should be. Should we not get any offers we are comfortable accepting, the coin will find it's way into an auction as some time in the future.
This is the fairest most forthright way I figured this should be handled. If anyone else has any ideas, please share them.
Clearly this coin is interesting in that it is a Top Pop, a Key Date AND Chop marked.
Funny thread title. RoadRunner's comment is really funny.
Complete Set of Chopmarked Trade Dollars
Carson City Silver Dollars Complete 1870-1893http://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/showcase.aspx?sc=2722"
<< <i>TThe interesting part of that conversation is that I had to explain the significance of the chop mark to that dealer, as they did not know the chop mark would exclude the coins use in a standard registry set.
Clearly this coin is interesting in that it is a Top Pop, a Key Date AND Chop marked. >>
Ok, answers my question about the registry, which I dont do. My opinion (since you asked
My impression without a lot of research, given TDNs estimate of price for this coin non chopmarked at $30k, If I was a buyer interested in trade dollars in these grade ranges a price of maybe $15 to $20k would be interesting. I would have to weigh the discount against how easily I could sell it if I wanted to do that in the future. You would have to find the right buyer, someone interested in high grade chopmarked coins.
<< <i>That did not take long. Thanks for posting this TDN.
For those that saw the previous thread, you may recall what the clients paid. In a recent conversation with the dealer who sold this coin to my client, they "claimed" to have purchased the coin themselves for over $20,000. The interesting part of that conversation is that I had to explain the significance of the chop mark to that dealer, as they did not know the chop mark would exclude the coins use in a standard registry set. I am not asking anyone to believe this or not, just sharing the narrative.
Faced with only one auction record from 2004 that shows this coin selling for over $7,000 and with no other commercial price guides available (Nothing personal TDN), I cannot in good faith tell my client that the coin is worth only the $4,000 as some have stated it should sell for. Be my client for a moment. Without evidence would you believe that?
So having thought about this for some time, I have decided to market the coin at the price they have paid and for the first time added the "OBO" to my Collectors Corner Ad. It is through the process of receiving offers I can assure my client as to what the actual and real expectations should be. Should we not get any offers we are comfortable accepting, the coin will find it's way into an auction as some time in the future.
This is the fairest most forthright way I figured this should be handled. If anyone else has any ideas, please share them.
Clearly this coin is interesting in that it is a Top Pop, a Key Date AND Chop marked. >>
I understand your logic, but unfortunately it can be slightly faulty in assisting you in getting the results you are seeking.
Sometimes a coin can be so ridiculously overpriced so as not to warrant the time and attention to forward a fair and decent offer.
Edited to add:
At the level of asking price you may have placed yourself in such a category and thus "turn off" and eliminate a positive and prospective buyer.
peacockcoins
Lance.
“I may not believe in myself but I believe in what I’m doing” ~Jimmy Page~
My Full Walker Registry Set (1916-1947)
https://www.ngccoin.com/registry/competitive-sets/16292/
<< <i>I like your style, AMRC. You're doing the right thing for your client.
Lance. >>
I thought the same thing. Well said.
"If I say something in the woods and my wife isn't there to hear it.....am I still wrong?"
My Washington Quarter Registry set...in progress
That auction is getting close to Juliancoin pricing, but not quite there. 1880-O for 34.5K
the reason i ask is that i think some dealers are prone to selling chop marked trades for the price of non-chop marked, if it behooves them.
<< <i>did the invoice for what they paid (~20K) ever materialize? can you out the seller?
the reason i ask is that i think some dealers are prone to selling chop marked trades for the price of non-chop marked, if it behooves them. >>
Clearly a possibility. but contrary to most I tend to give people the benefit of the doubt unless I have evidence to the contrary, not the lack thereof.
That's just me.
<< <i>At such a price gap, you may receive very few serious offers >>
By serious you mean ones that I would accept? I fully believe that everyone who has made an offer, and there has been a few, would complete the transaction if I accepted.
Thanks,
<< <i>Do unto others.... >>
...said the guy who started this thread to bash the seller.
<< <i>
<< <i>At such a price gap, you may receive very few serious offers >>
By serious you mean ones that I would accept? I fully believe that everyone who has made an offer, and there has been a few, would complete the transaction if I accepted.
Thanks, >>
Well, shut my mouth.
But that coin didn't just sit in a canvas bag on a vault floor, and it didn't sit in a coin cabinet in a dusty library to be examined once a decade by an academic with cotton gloves.
That coin traveled 8,000 miles--one third of the way around the globe--before getting punched with a hammer. And then it made the 8,000 mile return trip! Not in a flip, not in a cointainer or a slab, but probably in a keg. And unlike 99% of American coinage, we know that history for a fact. Someone thought that coin was really important and significant, and they made sure to save it for posterity.
It lasted through demonitization, earthquakes, remonitization, meltings, depressions. And it's still judged to be MS64 by PCGS.
Is it worth the asking price? I'm the wrong person to ask. But that coin is hardcore.
--Severian the Lame
<< <i>That did not take long. Thanks for posting this TDN.
For those that saw the previous thread, you may recall what the clients paid. In a recent conversation with the dealer who sold this coin to my client, they "claimed" to have purchased the coin themselves for over $20,000. The interesting part of that conversation is that I had to explain the significance of the chop mark to that dealer, as they did not know the chop mark would exclude the coins use in a standard registry set. I am not asking anyone to believe this or not, just sharing the narrative.
Faced with only one auction record from 2004 that shows this coin selling for over $7,000 and with no other commercial price guides available (Nothing personal TDN), I cannot in good faith tell my client that the coin is worth only the $4,000 as some have stated it should sell for. Be my client for a moment. Without evidence would you believe that?
So having thought about this for some time, I have decided to market the coin at the price they have paid and for the first time added the "OBO" to my Collectors Corner Ad. It is through the process of receiving offers I can assure my client as to what the actual and real expectations should be. Should we not get any offers we are comfortable accepting, the coin will find it's way into an auction as some time in the future.
This is the fairest most forthright way I figured this should be handled. If anyone else has any ideas, please share them.
Clearly this coin is interesting in that it is a Top Pop, a Key Date AND Chop marked. >>
Is it typical to list a client's coin in a registry set with your name on it? Since this is the only coin in the set, I assume it was just recently set up.
From the cert verification.
Current PCGS Registry Sets: This cert is currently in amoloian Set Registry inventory and is featured in one or more sets, including amoloian
MY COINS FOR SALE AT https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/collectors-showcase/other/bajjerfans-coins-sale/3876
<< <i>
<< <i>Do unto others.... >>
...said the guy who started this thread to bash the seller.
Bash the seller? Nope. Bash the possibility that someone buries themselves in that coin? Yup
<< <i>
Ok, answers my question about the registry, which I dont do. My opinion (since you asked
My impression without a lot of research, given TDNs estimate of price for this coin non chopmarked at $30k, If I was a buyer interested in trade dollars in these grade ranges a price of maybe $15 to $20k would be interesting. I would have to weigh the discount against how easily I could sell it if I wanted to do that in the future. You would have to find the right buyer, someone interested in high grade chopmarked coins. >>
A lot of good points here. I like the idea of "white elephant", it certainly fits here.
As someone who specializes both in Trade Dollars and chopmarked coins, my estimate for this coin is in the $6-8k range tops. IMO here's what limits the value:
- The biggest driver of value for this coin is the registry. The two biggest registry players (by a mile) have both chimed in and see it much lower.
- Yes it's a "key date" but it's not rare. It's not hard to find an S/CC even in mint state, with a little patience. Why would any non-chopmark collectors buy this coin when they can buy a non-chopmarked example without too much effort?
- More of these are found every year, even though the variety has been known for a while. I picked a PCGS MS62 chopmarked example off eBay last year, along with a couple XF and AU chopmarked examples.
- IMO most who prefer the blast white look, appreciate coins close to mint state as possible. A chopmarked example is the opposite of that. Conversely many collectors who appreciate chopmarks greatly prefer a more original look.
I think it's a really neat coin but the demand for this specific coin, chopmarked and white is just not that high, and nowhere close to the eBay listing. No offense to the listing dealer, I understand the circumstances.
Let me share a personal story that is sort of related. Last year I purchased a 4 figure chopmarked coin in mint state (my estimate is MS63 - resides in PCGS Unc details holder) It's not a Trade Dollar but is US and a true key date. Both the seller and I really agonized over the price, probably the toughest coin to price I've seriously pursued. Unchopmarked the coin is $30-40k. Eventually we settled on a price that matched up with a mid-AU example and both of us were happy. However, there were 2 major differences. 1. The coin I purchased has less than 5 total known in Uncirculated condition, as opposed to the S/CC trade dollar with 50+ known Uncs. and 2. the coin I purchased is really nicely toned with superb eye appeal - a coin that turns heads. Sure it's damaged, but I can always fall back on the demand of a strong collector base for the series that is starved for Unc. examples.
Hope that's helpful, this type of coin can be really really tough to price.
<< <i>
<< <i>
Ok, answers my question about the registry, which I dont do. My opinion (since you asked
My impression without a lot of research, given TDNs estimate of price for this coin non chopmarked at $30k, If I was a buyer interested in trade dollars in these grade ranges a price of maybe $15 to $20k would be interesting. I would have to weigh the discount against how easily I could sell it if I wanted to do that in the future. You would have to find the right buyer, someone interested in high grade chopmarked coins. >>
A lot of good points here. I like the idea of "white elephant", it certainly fits here.
As someone who specializes both in Trade Dollars and chopmarked coins, my estimate for this coin is in the $6-8k range tops. IMO here's what limits the value:
- The biggest driver of value for this coin is the registry. The two biggest registry players (by a mile) have both chimed in and see it much lower.
- Yes it's a "key date" but it's not rare. It's not hard to find an S/CC even in mint state, with a little patience. Why would any non-chopmark collectors buy this coin when they can buy a non-chopmarked example without too much effort?
- More of these are found every year, even though the variety has been known for a while. I picked a PCGS MS62 chopmarked example off eBay last year, along with a couple XF and AU chopmarked examples.
- IMO most who prefer the blast white look, appreciate coins close to mint state as possible. A chopmarked example is the opposite of that. Conversely many collectors who appreciate chopmarks greatly prefer a more original look.
I think it's a really neat coin but the demand for this specific coin, chopmarked and white is just not that high, and nowhere close to the eBay listing. No offense to the listing dealer, I understand the circumstances.
Let me share a personal story that is sort of related. Last year I purchased a 4 figure chopmarked coin in mint state (my estimate is MS63 - resides in PCGS Unc details holder) It's not a Trade Dollar but is US and a true key date. Both the seller and I really agonized over the price, probably the toughest coin to price I've seriously pursued. Unchopmarked the coin is $30-40k. Eventually we settled on a price that matched up with a mid-AU example and both of us were happy. However, there were 2 major differences. 1. The coin I purchased has less than 5 total known in Uncirculated condition, as opposed to the S/CC trade dollar with 50+ known Uncs. and 2. the coin I purchased is really nicely toned with superb eye appeal - a coin that turns heads. Sure it's damaged, but I can always fall back on the demand of a strong collector base for the series that is starved for Unc. examples.
Hope that's helpful, this type of coin can be really really tough to price. >>
Thanks for your input. You are quoting a price range that is 50-100% HIGHER than some here have stated. I believe they too consider themselves well versed in the area of chopmarked (is it really one word?) Trade Dollars. Either way, it looks like you believe the coin is worth more than the $4,000 that was stated here a few months back. I would be happy to buy it for myself @ $4,000, but doing so could represent a conflict of interest that I would not be comfortable with. I do sincerely appreciate you taking the time to post and sharing your thoughts.
<< <i>
I believe they too consider themselves well versed in the area of chopmarked (is it really one word?) Trade Dollars. >>
As used here either one word or two words is probably correct. My usual rule of thumb is if the two words are meant to convey a single entity/stand alone thing, I use the combined form.
MY COINS FOR SALE AT https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/collectors-showcase/other/bajjerfans-coins-sale/3876
<< <i>Thanks for your input. You are quoting a price range that is 50-100% HIGHER than some here have stated. I believe they too consider themselves well versed in the area of chopmarked (is it really one word?) Trade Dollars. Either way, it looks like you believe the coin is worth more than the $4,000 that was stated here a few months back. I would be happy to buy it for myself @ $4,000, but doing so could represent a conflict of interest that I would not be comfortable with. I do sincerely appreciate you taking the time to post and sharing your thoughts. >>
To be clear my guesstimate is just a SWAG. Knowing that one of the major players is 50% lower likely means my number is too high. I think past auction history was likely a speculative play hoping for resale to one of the registry participants, so yeah, my estimate is probably high. Then again, your "clients" paid almost $30k so who knows.
Just because a few of us are fond of chopmarks doesn't mean we have market pricing pegged outside of what each of us would pay. Only way to truly find out is to put it up for auction again.
Mark
Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
Chopmarks are like modern coins - nobody wants to pay retail because they'd rather buy them raw cheap and slab em themselves
<< <i>I'd trade my MS62 chop 77CC and my MS61 chop S/CC for it...I have about $400 combined into those two.
Chopmarks are like modern coins - nobody wants to pay retail because they'd rather buy them raw cheap and slab em themselves >>
I will take them both for $400. Thanks!
<< <i>
<< <i>I'd trade my MS62 chop 77CC and my MS61 chop S/CC for it...I have about $400 combined into those two.
Chopmarks are like modern coins - nobody wants to pay retail because they'd rather buy them raw cheap and slab em themselves >>
I will take them both for $400. Thanks! >>
I bid $435
Those series were sent to China too.
I give away money. I collect money.
I don’t love money . I do love the Lord God.
The more appropriate approach to proving to the consignor that it is worth substancially less than they believe is to not represent them if they insist on listing the coin for such an astronomical price or to instead have them put the coin into a Heritage auction with an appropriate reserve. Im guessing the latter wouldnt work as Heritage wouldn't accept the reserve at the current asking price.
Debating the value of the coin, $4000, $7000 seems like a constructive debate. $28k! Really!
Latin American Collection
The Coin Police are here...to protect the innocent you shall set your asking price to an "appropriate" level. In the future please seek our guidance as to value before posting new items. We've spent mega bucks on coins and clearly know when enough's enough. Thank you.
<< <i>...completely disregarding the fact that this is a Make An Offer situation...
The Coin Police are here...to protect the innocent you shall set your asking price to an "appropriate" level. In the future please seek our guidance as to value before posting new items. We've spent mega bucks on coins and clearly know when enough's enough. Thank you. >>
Set it at whatever you like, just don't be a hypocrite.
Latin American Collection
<< <i>
<< <i>...completely disregarding the fact that this is a Make An Offer situation...
The Coin Police are here...to protect the innocent you shall set your asking price to an "appropriate" level. In the future please seek our guidance as to value before posting new items. We've spent mega bucks on coins and clearly know when enough's enough. Thank you. >>
Set it at whatever you like, just don't be a hypocrite. >>
Thank you.
There are two sale prices for this coin. One for $28,000 in 2008 and one for about $7,000+ in 2004. Those are the facts, what are yours again?
<< <i>I'd trade my MS62 chop 77CC and my MS61 chop S/CC for it...I have about $400 combined into those two.
Chopmarks are like modern coins - nobody wants to pay retail because they'd rather buy them raw cheap and slab em themselves >>
Bruce, I would agree with you if we are still in 80's. At the time, chop marked Trade Dollars were plenty in Taiwan/Hong Kong, and of course, in China. nevertheless, supply dried up in mid-90's (I had no clue why). They were "modern (aka you could buy it cheap for 1.5X to 2X of bullion price)" but not anymore.
I truly wish I could know that 1875-P CTD is the key date of the series at the time
<< <i>
<< <i>I'd trade my MS62 chop 77CC and my MS61 chop S/CC for it...I have about $400 combined into those two.
Chopmarks are like modern coins - nobody wants to pay retail because they'd rather buy them raw cheap and slab em themselves >>
Bruce, I would agree with you if we are still in 80's. At the time, chop marked Trade Dollars were plenty in Taiwan/Hong Kong, and of course, in China. nevertheless, supply dried up in mid-90's (I had no clue why). They were "modern (aka you could buy it cheap for 1.5X to 2X of bullion price)" but not anymore.
I truly wish I could know that 1875-P CTD is the key date of the series at the time
Certainly TD are more popular today than ever, but only a small fraction of chopmarked TDs are in plastic. Ebay produces plenty of MS and AU RAW chopmarked TDs on a regular basis. You just have to know what you're looking at and be quick to pull the trigger.
<< <i>.....There are two sale prices for this coin. One for $28,000 in 2008 and one for about $7,000+ in 2004. Those are the facts, what are yours again? >>
One has to be careful with 2008 pricing as that peaking of the market was full of "whales" who paid big dollars for coins. Many of those whales are now gone (ie not supporting the market). Most coins in the market today don't bring nearly what they sold for in 2008. One could say that prices for many coins have actually retreated back to 2004-2005. I can name several pop top seated coins that are now 1/3 of their 2008 peak values. The real issue is where is the CM trade dollar market today (2004 or 2008 or somewhere else)?
I don't think it's a miracle that this coin did a 16K mile round from China and was stored over the years. There are hundreds (or thousands) of choice unc trade dollars that have survived that same trip....many not receiving any damage.
<< <i>
There are two sale prices for this coin. One for $28,000 in 2008 and one for about $7,000+ in 2004. Those are the facts, what are yours again? >>
Facts? Seems the first sale was just a buyback to create a price level...and there is no substantiation of the second sale.
As a dealer, I couldn't sleep at night if someone hit the BIN price on that coin...I know that one day it would come back to bite me in the arse. I can see the thread title now..,"dealer refuses to buy back coin he buried me in"