Why does OP sets the rules for group breaks?
Aric
Posts: 757 ✭✭
I would like to have a civilized discussion on why this has become the group consensus. It opens the doors for people to take advantage of the group and it can easily be stopped. We have a choice to make things completely fair or we can make them unfair like the real world. Are we so accustomed to life being unfair that we just accept in these virtual worlds that we create? What advantage is there to letting the person who started the thread setting the rules for the break. People are human and they will set the rules to advantage themselves, why wouldn't they especially if they are being told that it is acceptable.
People seem to get really emotional about this topic which I don't really understand so please try to leave the emotion and name calling out of this. I am open minded on this subject and am hoping someone can convince me that I am wrong on this.
Finally, I enjoy the heck out of this board and I wish nothing but the best for each of you. I hope to see many more group rips in the future.
Cheers,
Aric
People seem to get really emotional about this topic which I don't really understand so please try to leave the emotion and name calling out of this. I am open minded on this subject and am hoping someone can convince me that I am wrong on this.
Finally, I enjoy the heck out of this board and I wish nothing but the best for each of you. I hope to see many more group rips in the future.
Cheers,
Aric
0
This discussion has been closed.
Comments
I have no idea what you're talking about.
Is there a specific thread? In the past, I have purchased packs from a group break but it was totally on the up and up - it was BBCEx who wrapped and distributed the packs FASC/B.
edit: Kyle linked a thread which appears to be the "focus" of the OP?
<< <i>It opens the doors for people to take advantage of the group and it can easily be stopped. >>
Can you elaborate? I have no idea what this is referring to.
One thing I don't like seeing (and almost never do, thankfully) is people selling their own product under the guise of a group rip on this forum. If you want to do that, take it to the BST forum.
I would gather that if we took a poll, out of 100 people, 99 would say they would have no problem. I believe that is pretty darn good.
Lastly, as I have said in the past on multiple occasions, if you don't like the way a group break is being handled, organize your own group break. Nobody is saying you can't.
Mark
T206 Set - 300/524
<< <i>IMHO, nothing good can come of 'beating a dead horse'. SportsMod's response in this thread should be the final word: Link >>
+ a million!
The exception was a sought after and somewhat spendy unreserved case. Still available to the public, or even another OP who may have wanted to run a competing break, and being openly discussed on a public forum. We could've been swooped at any time. Furthermore, I think many of the participants would have been happy to take more than the 2 that were complained about, and could have easily just made a small group play for the case.
In the end a group of 16 took down a case of 20, and whoever is willing to take on the responsibility of running it, should make the rules, and those that want to play, can.
much ado about nothing
<< <i>It opens the doors for people to take advantage of the group and it can easily be stopped. >>
Not really sure I understand this, either. If you don't want to post here, send me a PM but I'd like to understand this better because I've seen and heard plenty of it lately.
Product and price are the main issues in my mind, and if you got what you paid for then not sure how you've been taken advantage of.
<< <i>One thing I don't like seeing (and almost never do, thankfully) is people selling their own product under the guise of a group rip on this forum. If you want to do that, take it to the BST forum. >>
Learned this one the hard way!
<< <i>Lastly, as I have said in the past on multiple occasions, if you don't like the way a group break is being handled, organize your own group break. Nobody is saying you can't. >>
Having tried this myself, I'd just say "good luck" to anyone else. There are numerous "unspoken" rules that need to be followed in my experience. Maybe I'll try again, but I'm not necessarily in any hurry to do it.
Aric - while I understand your continued concern? After reviewing the thread at the core of your consternation?
IMO, it lacks the merit for a protracted debate.
If there's another group rip and it's "not" stated first come first served - no limit - perhaps you can bring this up?
I have to say - the OP "does" have the right to set the rules - they went out of their way to contact BBCEx about a product and will take the time to insure it goes smoothly.
My recommendation? Keep a close eye on BBCEx and establish a rip or two?
edit: my whine? Sometimes I wish my threads pertaining to things that actually involve the history of our hobby and collectibles could get the "love" that some of these threads garner.
Bowman Baseball -1948-1955
Fleer Baseball-1923, 1959-2007
Al
This was the 86 case right?
I wanted more than 2 boxes to make sure we got the case and said as such very early in the thread. I didn't want to be greedy or leave anyone out like a couple others, but my immediate thought was, hey let's get this case...I almost bought the case prior to the rip even being publcized on here, so I for one can attest to the fact that it could have so easily been taken away from us while we created some drama around what we should do.
The funny part about all of this for me, is I offered up my second box to anyone that wanted to PM me for it. Not one PM. Therefore no one missed out, and those that got a box or 2 got what they wanted, while others had a chance as well.
The group rip went exactly how it should have period and in fact we policed ourselves very well in my opinion.
Save the drama for TV...True Detective should be a great second season.
A central set of rules that had to be followed every time would kill the group rips IMO.
<< <i>Aric,
This was the 86 case right?
I wanted more than 2 boxes to make sure we got the case and said as such very early in the thread. I didn't want to be greedy or leave anyone out like a couple others, but my immediate thought was, hey let's get this case...I almost bought the case prior to the rip even being publcized on here, so I for one can attest to the fact that it could have so easily been taken away from us while we created some drama around what we should do.
The funny part about all of this for me, is I offered up my second box to anyone that wanted to PM me for it. Not one PM. Therefore no one missed out, and those that got a box or 2 got what they wanted, while others had a chance as well.
The group rip went exactly how it should have period and in fact we policed ourselves very well in my opinion.
Save the drama for TV...True Detective should be a great second season. >>
Yup, those crying over the way that case was sold had a few chances to snag a box. Whether from posting in the thread itself early on to the fact that you did offer your second box. Me thinks it is more butthurt over them not being able to afford a box than anything. I can add that I am butthurt over not being able to afford such a sweet 86 box at this time.
I read through all of the replies and I don't think anyone has given any reasons on why they think this rule is in place or why it is a good idea. Why not just make the rule 1 per person for the first 24 hours or whatever. I'm not saying this should be the rule but tell me why it is not. What am I missing? What is the advantage? I can think of one big disadvantage. It brings less customers to BBCE's doorstep. Steve and his crew are the ones really doing the work here. They are the ones hooking us up with this opportunity that no other retailer would probably even consider. Why not make the rules so they benefit him?
I also want to add, that this thread is not in direct response to the 86 FB case but it did highlight this wild west atmosphere that surrounds these breaks. For instance, based on past breaks I believe Steve would have temporarily put the case on hold if he was told there was more than enough interest which would have eliminated this element of rush that some are using as a reason in this particular instance but the OP probably had no idea that Steve would have done that because there is all this vagueness about how a group rip should be organized or what actually takes place.
Finally, the only reason some of you see this as "drama" or "much ado" is because you disagree with me. Stop trying to make me bad because I am seeking to right what I believe is wrong. I would be more than happy to admit I am wrong and drop the subject if I can be convinced with friendly conversation about the points that have been brought up.
Cheers
<< <i>my whine? Sometimes I wish my threads pertaining to things that actually involve the history of our hobby and collectibles could get the "love" that some of these threads garner. >>
I agree. I'm your biggest fan, Mike! The day that thread went nuclear, I had an update for one of my player threads. I actually felt weird about posting. Showing pictures from our collections and showing our latest acquisitions? Is that something we still do around here?
<< <i>Thanks for the replies guys. I don't believe I am beating a dead horse as this topic has never been discussed in its own thread.
I read through all of the replies and I don't think anyone has given any reasons on why they think this rule is in place or why it is a good idea. Why not just make the rule 1 per person for the first 24 hours or whatever. I'm not saying this should be the rule but tell me why it is not. What am I missing? What is the advantage? I can think of one big disadvantage. It brings less customers to BBCE's doorstep. Steve and his crew are the ones really doing the work here. They are the ones hooking us up with this opportunity that no other retailer would probably even consider. Why not make the rules so they benefit him?
I also want to add, that this thread is not in direct response to the 86 FB case but it did highlight this wild west atmosphere that surrounds these breaks. For instance, based on past breaks I believe Steve would have temporarily put the case on hold if he was told there was more than enough interest which would have eliminated this element of rush that some are using as a reason in this particular instance but the OP probably had no idea that Steve would have done that because there is all this vagueness about how a group rip should be organized or what actually takes place.
Finally, the only reason some of you see this as "drama" or "much ado" is because you disagree with me. Stop trying to make me bad because I am seeking to right what I believe is wrong. I would be more than happy to admit I am wrong and drop the subject if I can be convinced with friendly conversation about the points that have been brought up.
Cheers >>
What you are are not understanding is BBCE is not doing the board a big favour. I think its great that he suppports these breaks but the flip side of that support is hundreds of thousands of dollars product moved. The breaks aren't a giveaway, they are a transaction and BBCE has done very well by these boards. He's moved 40k in product the past few weeks through these forums. So please enough of the BBCE is being taken advantage of nonsense. Classic win win situation for everyone.
I don't do group rips, so no real puppy in the scrap. But I like the way these are handled. Wild West, capitalistic, whatever term is used. In my opinion everybody had a shot at the 86 boxes. But everybody can't get one. Nature of the beast
<< <i>I think what the OP is saying is that they should be done his way. >>
Dictatorship
Again, more an exception than the rule.
I still expect most traditional group rips to proceed with usual rules.
But I won't freak if not.
I stewed for a good 8 hours before jumping in. But I'm glad I did and not gonna feel sorry about it. These don't come along often.
It's a fair question, I just think this case was circumstantial, and still ended pretty fairly considering.
If you don't think the rules the OP sets are fair, don't participate in the break.
"Be who you are and say what you feel, because those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind." Dr. Seuss
<< <i>I "love" your threads and posts on your 63 Fleer set, Mike >>
Hiya Al
Thanx!
I like your input on "anything" Topps - you're "topps" in my book.
<< <i>
<< <i>my whine? Sometimes I wish my threads pertaining to things that actually involve the history of our hobby and collectibles could get the "love" that some of these threads garner. >>
I agree. I'm your biggest fan, Mike! The day that thread went nuclear, I had an update for one of my player threads. I actually felt weird about posting. Showing pictures from our collections and showing our latest acquisitions? Is that something we still do around here? >>
Thanx Dan!
Ya know? I would like to see more participation and contribution to our forum - what one likes - what one is thinking of collecting - plans? Etc.
<< <i>38,835 users are registered in the CU forums. And pretty soon it will be 38,834 or less. >>
And a risk of ending group breaks entirely on these forums. All it takes is a few unhappy campers to spoil it for everyone. I missed out on the 1975 rack box that was broken a few years back. Them's the breaks. I could just as easily arrange a group break for the 1986 wax case and say 'I only want 19 of the boxes, so Steve will split out a FASC box for the first person who responds to reserve it' and that would be a-okay too. As long as Steve is managing the shipping to eliminate the chance for a Gary repeat, pretty much anything else can go.
<< <i>but it did highlight this wild west atmosphere >>
Geez Aric.
Sounds like we need Marshall Wyatt Earp?
Come on. Since they established new guidelines, this place is rather timid.
Don't you remember the Open Forum? Now that was the wild west!
I sure understand you're disappointed. You missed out?
But, there's always going to be someone who "missed out."
Haven't you ever had a snipe fail? Haven't you ever underestimated the audience for an item and underbid with a snipe - only to feel you missed the deal of the century?
If there's one thing I've realized. There will always be another "something" to come down the pike.
<< <i>
<< <i>38,835 users are registered in the CU forums. And pretty soon it will be 38,834 or less. >>
And a risk of ending group breaks entirely on these forums. All it takes is a few unhappy campers to spoil it for everyone. I missed out on the 1975 rack box that was broken a few years back. Them's the breaks. I could just as easily arrange a group break for the 1986 wax case and say 'I only want 19 of the boxes, so Steve will split out a FASC box for the first person who responds to reserve it' and that would be a-okay too. As long as Steve is managing the shipping to eliminate the chance for a Gary repeat, pretty much anything else can go. >>
+1
I had a member tell me, "well, it's not really that much trouble running a break". Funny thing is, they have never run a break. Hell, I ran breaks to coincide when I was available when the 48 hour mark was up to make sure I was home to update the thread "real time". The same people complaining that "IT'S NOT FAIR" haven't run a single break.
Sorry, I am not and never will be for the "every kid gets a trophy". The person that organizes the rip can make ANY rule he wants. They are the person doing all the work. If a break happens and I miss out...........then OLE WELL. You have never seen me ever CRYING about missing something. It's life. Suck it up and move up.
For the people that are disgruntled, which is maybe 2 FREAKING PEOPLE, IF YOU DON'T LIKE THE WAY BREAKS ARE BEING DONE THEN ORGANIZE YOUR OWN GROUP RIP!!!!!!!! Damn, I am tired of the whining. The next complaint you are going to hear is Summerof69 needs to give everyone 24 hours notice when he offers his racks up for sale at below BBCE's prices so EVERYONE GETS A FAIR CHANCE.
Sorry for the tone I am using but I am just getting so TIRED of the "it needs to be fair for everyone". Life isn't fair. Move on.
Mark
T206 Set - 300/524
<< <i>An organizer might want to buy half a box himself but cant swing buying a full box.. i don't see any issue in him opening up some sort of group rip to fill the rest of the box. >>
<< <i> I could just as easily arrange a group break for the 1986 wax case and say 'I only want 19 of the boxes, so Steve will split out a FASC box for the first person who responds to reserve it' and that would be a-okay too. >>
Wa..wa....wait. We are okay with this? I though this was whole opposite of the point of the group rip. Are you saying a person could email Steve, tell him they are organizing a group rip, secure 10% discount that they could not otherwise get under the guise of a group rip and then sign themselves up for half the box?
If you guys are cool with these scenarios then obviously the point I am trying to make is ridiculous.
<< <i>
<< <i>An organizer might want to buy half a box himself but cant swing buying a full box.. i don't see any issue in him opening up some sort of group rip to fill the rest of the box. >>
<< <i> I could just as easily arrange a group break for the 1986 wax case and say 'I only want 19 of the boxes, so Steve will split out a FASC box for the first person who responds to reserve it' and that would be a-okay too. >>
Wa..wa....wait. We are okay with this? I though this was whole opposite of the point of the group rip. Are you saying a person could email Steve, tell him they are organizing a group rip, secure 10% discount that they could not otherwise get under the guise of a group rip and then sign themselves up for half the box?
If you guys are cool with these scenarios then obviously the point I am trying to make is ridiculous. >>
YES!!!!!!!!!!! If you are organizing the group break and wanted to take 19 of the 20 boxes then that is your prerogative. If you don't like it then ORGANIZE YOUR OWN GROUP BREAK. What part of that don't you understand????????????????? Holy moly, it's like arguing with my 12 year old.
Mark
T206 Set - 300/524
Until you organize and run a group break, then stop with your whining. Can't make it any clearer than that.
Mark
T206 Set - 300/524
<< <i>secure 10% discount that they could not otherwise get under the guise of a group rip >>
This is the flaw in your understanding. There is no automatic 10% discount for group rips and haven't been for the last 2+ years. It's up to the organizer to negotiate a discount, if any, and Steve to agree to it as with any individual wanting to purchase the entire box/case. There have been plenty of breaks with no discount and I'm sure Steve would have sold the 86 case to an individual with the same discount if they contacted him directly.
Yes, I'm completely OK with the quoted statements, understanding there are no special group break discounts.
<< <i>
<< <i>secure 10% discount that they could not otherwise get under the guise of a group rip >>
This is the flaw in your understanding. There is no automatic 10% discount for group rips and haven't been for the last 2+ years. It's up to the organizer to negotiate a discount, if any, and Steve to agree to it as with any individual wanting to purchase the entire box/case. There have been plenty of breaks with no discount and I'm sure Steve would have sold the 86 case to an individual with the same discount if they contacted him directly.
Yes, I'm completely OK with the quoted statements, understanding there are no special group break discounts. >>
+1000000000
The automatic 10% discount for group breaks ended about 18 months ago. Steve will give a 10% discount where he can on some products but that is few and far between anymore.
Mark
T206 Set - 300/524
<< <i>What you are are not understanding is BBCE is not doing the board a big favour. I think its great that he suppports these breaks but the flip side of that support is hundreds of thousands of dollars product moved. The breaks aren't a giveaway, they are a transaction and BBCE has done very well by these boards. >>
Let's reiterate for everyone once and for all...
BBCE generally gives this board THE SAME DISCOUNT they would to someone calling up to buy the product. If you don't believe that, you're just fooling yourself.
Additionally - BBCE DID NOT discount the 86 case 10% - there is no standard 10% discount for the Board. I say again - there is NO STANDARD DISCOUNT for the board!
For the 1986 case, the discount was 5% (before shipping). In every group break I've seen the past couple years, BBCE OFTEN discounts 10% on certain product but there is also product with no discount at all. Just depends on what it is how much they're willing to discount.
As said by someone earlier, "the price is the price".
Additionally, a single box of the 1986 cost an additional $20 to ship because the bill was $945, not $925 which is $18,500/20. I know it doesn't cost $20 to ship a box of cards, but they're also coming marked and wrapped (which is usually 5% charge and would have been roughly $45 on these boxes) so that $20 in my view covers both those things. I'm not complaining about it, simply stating facts on true cost as well as my opinion on what makes that up.
And keep in mind - that "discount" is off their online posted price. It's not like their posted price is the "market", it's just what they're charging. What they're charging is also not necessarily "what it's worth". Could be more, could be less, prices and values change every day. There's WAY too much focus on the "discount" on this board IMO.
Again, "the price is the price" in the end.
<< <i>
<< <i>An organizer might want to buy half a box himself but cant swing buying a full box.. i don't see any issue in him opening up some sort of group rip to fill the rest of the box. >>
<< <i> I could just as easily arrange a group break for the 1986 wax case and say 'I only want 19 of the boxes, so Steve will split out a FASC box for the first person who responds to reserve it' and that would be a-okay too. >>
Wa..wa....wait. We are okay with this? I though this was whole opposite of the point of the group rip. Are you saying a person could email Steve, tell him they are organizing a group rip, secure 10% discount that they could not otherwise get under the guise of a group rip and then sign themselves up for half the box?
If you guys are cool with these scenarios then obviously the point I am trying to make is ridiculous. >>
It would beat me just buying the case outright from BBCE directly leaving everyone out in the cold. At least someone gets the opportunity to buy a single box straight out of the case. As for the 10% discount, Steve knows he's shipping 19 of the 20 boxes to one person and can decide whether he wants to grant a 10% discount. For the record, this is only a hypothetical scenario. I personally had no interest in the 1986 case and didn't even attempt to reserve a box.
<< <i>
Let's reiterate for everyone once and for all...
BBCE generally gives this board THE SAME DISCOUNT they would to someone calling up to buy the product. >>
With all due respect, this did not use to be the case. Steve would most certainly give a discount to the board that he would not give to just anyone. Not only that but we could include just about anything else on the site for the same 10% discount. I realize that was taken away long ago but if he is also no longer giving discounts to the board and the rips have become just them breaking a box and mailing out packs, well, then nevermind.
You obviously have some different ideas of the way things should be. Instead of complaining about the way things are, why don't you run a group break the way you think it ought to be done?
Maybe that will set a new standard of how group rips should operate. I'm not trying to be snarky, but why not be proactive about your views instead of the seemingly endless discussion about what you don't like?
If you don't like the current state of affairs, show us a different way through your own group breaks instead of trying to impose your views on everybody else. It appears that nearly everybody else has no problem with how these group rips are executed.
<< <i>
<< <i>
Let's reiterate for everyone once and for all...
BBCE generally gives this board THE SAME DISCOUNT they would to someone calling up to buy the product. >>
With all due respect, this did not use to be the case. Steve would most certainly give a discount to the board that he would not give to just anyone. Not only that but we could include just about anything else on the site for the same 10% discount. I realize that was taken away long ago but if he is also no longer giving discounts to the board and the rips have become just them breaking a box and mailing out packs, well, then nevermind. >>
See Aric, this is where you are commenting on something that you have NO clue about. If you had actually organized a break and dealt with Steve, you would know that a 10% discount is the MOST he will give anyone. A lot of the stuff over the years, he could have sold for his asking price w/out selling to us w/ a 10% discount. Mike Kelley tried forever to get more than a 10% discount and Steve would never budge which is why I never tried.
Steve does well and the boards have been a great revenue stream for him. It has been a win/win all the way around.
Mark
T206 Set - 300/524
<< <i>Aric, serious question for you.
You obviously have some different ideas of the way things should be. Instead of complaining about the way things are, why don't you run a group break the way you think it ought to be done?
Maybe that will set a new standard of how group rips should operate. I'm not trying to be snarky, but why not be proactive about your views instead of the seemingly endless discussion about what you don't like?
If you don't like the current state of affairs, show us a different way through your own group breaks instead of trying to impose your views on everybody else. It appears that nearly everybody else has no problem with how these group rips are executed. >>
Hiya Dan. Looking forward to seeing you in Chicago.
Mark
T206 Set - 300/524
<< <i>
<< <i>Aric, serious question for you.
You obviously have some different ideas of the way things should be. Instead of complaining about the way things are, why don't you run a group break the way you think it ought to be done?
Maybe that will set a new standard of how group rips should operate. I'm not trying to be snarky, but why not be proactive about your views instead of the seemingly endless discussion about what you don't like?
If you don't like the current state of affairs, show us a different way through your own group breaks instead of trying to impose your views on everybody else. It appears that nearly everybody else has no problem with how these group rips are executed. >>
Hiya Dan. Looking forward to seeing you in Chicago.
Mark >>
Looking forward to it, mark. I haven't seen you on PSA CardSlugger for a while
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>Aric, serious question for you.
You obviously have some different ideas of the way things should be. Instead of complaining about the way things are, why don't you run a group break the way you think it ought to be done?
Maybe that will set a new standard of how group rips should operate. I'm not trying to be snarky, but why not be proactive about your views instead of the seemingly endless discussion about what you don't like?
If you don't like the current state of affairs, show us a different way through your own group breaks instead of trying to impose your views on everybody else. It appears that nearly everybody else has no problem with how these group rips are executed. >>
Hiya Dan. Looking forward to seeing you in Chicago.
Mark >>
Looking forward to it, mark. I haven't seen you on PSA CardSlugger for a while >>
LMFAO........just not good enough at it.
Mark
T206 Set - 300/524
I only know this from my own personal experience on some specific boxes but this was years ago and like I said in my earlier post if its no longer the same then my whole point is moot.
<< <i>
<< <i>Aric, serious question for you.
You obviously have some different ideas of the way things should be. Instead of complaining about the way things are, why don't you run a group break the way you think it ought to be done?
Maybe that will set a new standard of how group rips should operate. I'm not trying to be snarky, but why not be proactive about your views instead of the seemingly endless discussion about what you don't like?
If you don't like the current state of affairs, show us a different way through your own group breaks instead of trying to impose your views on everybody else. It appears that nearly everybody else has no problem with how these group rips are executed. >>
Hiya Dan. Looking forward to seeing you in Chicago.
Mark >>
I'm going to the National this year.
When we get closer - I'd like to see if a group is getting together or something? I'll be the guy who looks like Richard Dreyfuss' brother.
I need to lose some weight.
<< <i>
For what it is worth, I was working when this went down. That is life! Sometimes you win, sometimes you lose. In the grand scheme of things, this is about a 0.1 on a scale of 1 to 100. Get over it and move on.
Mike
<< <i>I could go back and check my records, but quite frankly am too busy/ lazy/ apathetic. About 10 months to a year ago, there was a sealed case of 1975 mini wax boxes broke in the exact same manner as this one. Someone mentioned it was for sale, a few jumped in and said they would be in for a box or two, and the break was on. Again, no limit, no real set "rules". I bought two boxes and was happy to 1) get fresh FASC boxes and 2) help others do the same. So this is not a first or isolated incident. When items are available retail, you either move quick or run the risk of losing out.
For what it is worth, I was working when this went down. That is life! Sometimes you win, sometimes you lose. In the grand scheme of things, this is about a 0.1 on a scale of 1 to 100. Get over it and move on.
Mike >>
+1. If the complainers don't want to get scooped, they are free to contact BBCE directly and purchase the entire case.