Any Info On 1964 Roosevelt Dime SMS
stash
Posts: 1,126 ✭✭✭
I had this coin at the local coin show, and we know its not a regular strike, or proof .. Hoping to find some info on the SMS for this year [URL=http://s1296.photobucket.com/user/stash38/media/A019 - 20121021_171157 3-horz-horz_zpskkjvtevj.jpg.html]
[/URL]
![http://s1296.photobucket.com/user/stash38/media/A019 - 20121021_171157 3-horz-horz_zpskkjvtevj.jpg.html]](https://forums.collectors.com/home/leaving?allowTrusted=1&target=http%3A%2F%2Fs1296.photobucket.com%2Fuser%2Fstash38%2Fmedia%2FA019%2520-%252020121021_171157%25203-horz-horz_zpskkjvtevj.jpg.html%5D){kind=link}
[/URL] 0
Comments
<< <i>There are 1964 SMS coins which are VERY rare and there are no more than 25-50 of them. >>
I'm hoping its a SMS, know one at the coins show new what it was, Mr. Potter said it could be a SMS ...
Too many positive BST transactions with too many members to list.
coin would show up and qualify as an SMS.
<< <i>Any known die characteristics for the '64 SMS Dimes? Does your have any that stand out? >>
What I've noticed is the " LIPS " are different on the SMS ...
<< <i>My understanding is that the 1964 SMS pieces were all in complete sets. It is extremely unlikely that an individual
coin would show up and qualify as an SMS. >>
Thats not true, some were found when the director ( she ) of the mint died in 1995 ...
"Keep your malarkey filter in good operating order" -Walter Breen
<< <i>Far from an expert on these, but I'd like to see more polish lines that dive under the devices. The "so-called" sets were not immediately identified as such and many were broken up. >>
Both the obverse & reverse have very fine lines, and the coin is bluish white in color ..
I'll let the experts decide.
I never knew about the 1964 SMS sets. I thought they were confined to 1965, 1966, and 1967.
Joe
bob
The Lincoln cent store:
http://www.lincolncent.com
My numismatic art work:
http://www.cdaughtrey.com
USAF veteran, 1986-1996 :: support our troops - the American way.
<< <i>I have extremely limited knowledge of the direct subject, but one of the parts of my specialty is in comparing designs for differences, and I find that in the PCGS images the 'SMS' coin has far stronger lines in the hair than the business strike coin...and the OPs coin matches the SMS in this detail as far as I can tell. >>
Great eye, I didn't even notice that and I've study this coin for about 5 years now, guess thats why you run coppercoins and not me lol .. Last year is when I bought it to the coin show, it did turn some heads ...
<< <i>Send it to PCGS and see what happens >>
I've been thinking about it ...
The Lincoln cent store:
http://www.lincolncent.com
My numismatic art work:
http://www.cdaughtrey.com
USAF veteran, 1986-1996 :: support our troops - the American way.
<< <i>The down side - and this is where my logical brain kicks in - is that the dies used on your coin have both been polished, likely to remove clash marks. This is where the raised area of field comes in (shows like a darker aura around Roosevelt, and heavy die scratch lines on the reverse). I have seen many cases of similar polishing on MS coins, but do not recall EVER seeing such polishing on an SMS (1965-1967) or proof coin of any strike type or year (satin, brilliant, matte, or otherwise). Generally proof dies with enough damage to warrant polishing would be discarded, not 'repaired' or 'reconditioned'. >>
I can get some better images of both sides of the coin, theses are when I first started with this scope .. The lines are very fine, and have know sense of directions either ..
<< <i>The down side - and this is where my logical brain kicks in - is that the dies used on your coin have both been polished, likely to remove clash marks. This is where the raised area of field comes in (shows like a darker aura around Roosevelt, and heavy die scratch lines on the reverse). I have seen many cases of similar polishing on MS coins, but do not recall EVER seeing such polishing on an SMS (1965-1967) or proof coin of any strike type or year (satin, brilliant, matte, or otherwise). Generally proof dies with enough damage to warrant polishing would be discarded, not 'repaired' or 'reconditioned'. >>
The coinfacts image of the 64 sms in 67 has die polish scratch looking lines all over the place, so maybe that's another sign it's a match.
bit of knowledge and experience with these coins.
<< <i>
<< <i>The down side - and this is where my logical brain kicks in - is that the dies used on your coin have both been polished, likely to remove clash marks. This is where the raised area of field comes in (shows like a darker aura around Roosevelt, and heavy die scratch lines on the reverse). I have seen many cases of similar polishing on MS coins, but do not recall EVER seeing such polishing on an SMS (1965-1967) or proof coin of any strike type or year (satin, brilliant, matte, or otherwise). Generally proof dies with enough damage to warrant polishing would be discarded, not 'repaired' or 'reconditioned'. >>
The coinfacts image of the 64 sms in 67 has die polish scratch looking lines all over the place, so maybe that's another sign it's a match. >>
Funny, thats what I was working on after dinner of course, These very fine lines are everywhere both sides, this images is pretty close to the color of the coin to [URL=http://s1296.photobucket.com/user/stash38/media/A032 - 20150420_173415 2_zpsnrukzft5.jpg.html]
i had one...i had it closely imaged for such cases
study some of the images in this thread....
1964 sms dime thread
your example doesn't have the look...to me
the fields are very telling
very flat
like a mirror without the mirror
covered in polish lines that give them a stand-out appearence
<< <i>btw
your example doesn't have the look...to me
the fields are very telling
very flat
like a mirror without the mirror
covered in polish lines that give them a stand-out appearence >>
I'll get some new images tomorrow, light is all done for the day, the field are mirror like, thats why my scope lights them up .. Your images match really good to this coin ... Its hockey night in Detroit tonight .. Lol .....
and it sets us apart from practitioners and consultants. Gregor
they have a look about them
one could see the hair before the ear differences
the number "1" of the date
100% flat field...notice from rim to portrait...it's flat
look at the field of yours behind his head...that's not on a known "SMS"
too many lil differences
100% certain
you don't have a "SMS" there
and it sets us apart from practitioners and consultants. Gregor
<< <i>why are these so rare? How would one have acquired them from the mint? >>
jamie hernandez wrote up a good article on these here
1964 sms article
<< <i>yours above...my old known "SMS" below
they have a look about them
one could see the hair before the ear differences
the number "1" of the date
100% flat field...notice from rim to portrait...it's flat
look at the field of yours behind his head...that's not on a known "SMS"
too many lil differences
100% certain
you don't have a "SMS" there
Heres a couple of close up of the fields [URL=http://s1296.photobucket.com/user/stash38/media/A002 - 20150420_201040 2_zpsyncsq3iy.jpg.html]
do they match up with known diagnostics as i had done with mine old one that is in a pcgs holder
you have the capability i see....match these areas in imaging
put yours on top to compare
<< <i>alot of dies get "worked on" during production...so showing die polish is one thing
do they match up with known diagnostics as i had done with mine old one that is in a pcgs holder
you have the capability i see....match these areas in imaging
put yours on top to compare
I can do that, stop by tomorrow, my wife will kill me if she catches me with the scope, its are 19 year wedding anniversary today, I still might post them tonight to ..
Here's some diagnostic markers that giorgio11 posted to my thread on the topic:
Obverse Die No 1
—DIE MARKER. Only one die crack visible, extremely thin but covering an arc of about 120 degrees. Runs from halfway down the bridge of the nose in an arc all the way through the hair, terminating about at the back side of the ear.
—Dotlike planchet indent on neck near forward V-shaped tip, directly up from J in JS designer's initials. Another dotlike planchet indent about in center of cheek.
—Prominent diagonal (SW-NE) die polish lines on neck.
—Touches of pinkish-gold on silver-white planchet. Glints of gold esp. prominent on Roosevelt's face.
—Especially prominent die polish line connects bottoms of T and Y.
—Lots of near-vertical die polish lines in fields before and behind portrait.
Reverse
Reverse Die No 1
—DIE MARKER. Tiny comma-shaped raised die lump near the rim at 7:45, between the dot separating UNITED AND ONE and the O(NE).
—DIE MARKER. Another tiny die lump near the left rim dot separating CA and ME. This one is smaller than the one at 7:45 and is more directly below the dot. Visible on the CoinFacts image.
—DIE MARKER. Tiny die crack touches apex of last A in AMERICA and extends over but does not touch C.
—DIE MARKER. Heavy die polishing throughout reverse is pretty much straight up and down. But a prominent die polish line runs diagonally NW-SE from between bottoms of IB to lowest (protruding) crossband on torch at its left side.
—No sign of die lump on laurel leaves.
The Whisker Cheek Collection - Top 50 Peace VAM Registry
Landmark Buffalo Collection
They are unmistakeable in hand.
Ike Specialist
Finest Toned Ike I've Ever Seen, been looking since 1986
<< <i>The 1964 SMS dimes I've handled have a matte appearance. Well struck, but not like a proof. Lots and lots of die polish.
They are unmistakeable in hand. >>
Lets not forget it also has a " Satin " finish look to ... Roosevelt Dime, SP Price Changes
PCGS No Description Desig 63 64 65 66 67 68 69 70 - -
Type 1, Silver, SP Price Changes
1964 SMS SP
All the sms coins were struck at San Francisco with no mint mark.
The Philly mint mark is known as "plain" or no mintmark.
I have long thought that someone took some silver planchets and struck some dimes with 1964 b.u. dies either doing test strikes for the sms sets to come or to intentionally strike some rarities.
Oh wait there were no 1964s dimes.
Like to see a pic of the edge of the coin.Is it on silver or clad..
The mix up is in there being no mint mark in 64,65,66,67.......the Philly is a plain or no mint mark!
Or someone moved an obverse die and silver planchets from Philly to Sanfrancisco to intentionally produce a rarity.
please enlighten us here if you have any information pertinent to the 1964 SMS coins
my understanding is not much is known about these...AT ALL
there is only known fact to when and where these were discovered and who had them....the scope of information stops there
i struggle with your grouping of these with the 1965 to 1967 coins
by all rights these never should of been called "SMS" as they shouldn't be grouped in with 1965 to 1967
these are more like patterns...a limited run of trial pieces that weren't intended for release
"don't wing it here"...no one knows but if you have verified facts about 1964 SMS coins
please enlighten us
a lil tidbit i'll toss in here
russ stated he's seem these labeled as satin by anacs
so if anyone sees an anacs 1964 satin labeled coin....this is what you're looking at...a 1964 sms
a coin no one knows much about at all
never officially released or offered for public purchase
<< <i>hey coinstudy
please enlighten us here if you have any information pertinent to the 1964 SMS coins
my understanding is not much is known about these...AT ALL
there is only known fact to when and where these were discovered and who had them....the scope of information stops there
i struggle with your grouping of these with the 1965 to 1967 coins
by all rights these never should of been called "SMS" as they shouldn't be grouped in with 1965 to 1967
these are more like patterns...a limited run of trial pieces that weren't intended for release
"don't wing it here"...no one knows but if you have verified facts about 1964 SMS coins
please enlighten us
a lil tidbit i'll toss in here
russ stated he's seem these labeled as satin by anacs
so if anyone sees an anacs 1964 satin labeled coin....this is what you're looking at...a 1964 sms
a coin no one knows much about at all
never officially released or offered for public purchase >>
I'm going to try and get this gentlemen over here on this thread, he says that he bought a complete set from the mint around 1964, they are in a after-market case now [URL=http://s1296.photobucket.com/user/stash38/media/64mint089_zps0ulkryvd.jpg.html]
the coins in that set are "mint set" coins...THOSE ARE NOT 1964 SMS COINS
many a visitor to the mint bought proof or mint set coins...that's a fact
coinshops and dealers back in the day bought examples of "EVERY" mint offering for clients and themselves
these 1964 sms coins weren't released or dealers back in the day would of bought examples and...,
it wouldn't of taken until 1993 for these to be discovered
they were found at a mint directors estate sale after her passing
no one knew of them before 1993
ask that guy if he's ready with close-up imaging
heritage has great close-up imaging of all denominations to compare off of
mind you
if he could prove these coins are 1964 sms and he bought these from the us mint direct
he has a story many in the numismatic society would love to hear
"i really hope no one falls for the story that those are 1964 sms in that holder and ends up burned"
<< <i>"I'm going to try and get this gentlemen over here on this thread, he says that he bought a complete set from the mint in 1964, they are in a after-market case now "
the coins in that set are "mint set" coins...THOSE ARE NOT 1964 SMS COINS
many a visitor to the mint bought proof or mint set coins...that's a fact
coinshops and dealers back in the day bought examples of "EVERY" mint offering for clients and themselves
these 1964 sms coins weren't released or dealers back in the day would of bought examples and...,
it wouldn't of taken until 1993 for these to be discovered
they were found at a mint directors estate sale after her passing
no one knew of them before 1993
ask that guy if he's ready with close-up imaging
heritage has great close-up imaging of all denominations to compare off of
mind you
if he could prove these coins are 1964 sms and he bought these from the us mint direct
he has a story many in the numismatic society would love to hear
"i really hope no one falls for the story that those are 1964 sms in that holder and ends up burned" >>
I see know reason for him to lie to me, he's not selling them either ....
it's not about lying...he's naive about 1964 sms coins and probably fully believes he has um
but he doesn't
question is...is he stubborn or open-minded enough to research his stated claim